Paak-da chi-sau entry

[Jake104]

I see everything I said has been lost on you, even with video. I must not be writing clearly enough. Never mind then.

No, I'm using mental sticky hands in my posts. I'm making you stick to my post and reply.

 

[Jake104]

I like to see you hit someone with a principle/concept only..

I can? I write a principle or concept on a baseball bat with a sharpie. Then I swing away! Duh! That's the literal way. But I can do the figuratively way too!

 

[LFJ]

So let's see some free fighting gong sao? I'd like to see these tactics carried over into free fighting? I'd like to see some "good useable VT"

I don't have free fighting videos, as I'm sure most people posting here don't. Not even the ones posting up clips of themselves do. I'm not trying to convince you anyway, just discussing concepts. If you can't see how these concepts can be used, then it will take hands-on experience.

Punches should have full body behind not just not elbow..

And if your elbow isn't behind a straight punch, neither is the rest of your body.

What about a whipping punch? That's not VT?

A whipping punch starting with the elbow up and coming down to cut in from the outside? That's not the same as trying to do a straight punch on the inside from a bong-sau.

If I'm squared to my opponent and have a bong out. Why can't I change into a full body punch?

Maybe you can, but it is a large movement at the elbow easily detected even by sight, not to mention from contact points in chi-sau. There is really no reason that shouldn't be shut down every time, unless the person is terribly unskilled.

I have a whipping punch from my Original lineage that I call huen choi. Elbow isn't behind it but full body is though.

I don't want to doubt you without seeing it, but I would think biomechanical principles of how your joints link to deliver full body force would disagree that your elbow is not behind it.

 

[Jake104]

If you can't see how these concepts can be used, then it will take hands-on experience.

I agree! This can go on for days. I wish there were some PB or WSL people in the phoenix Az area? I'm always up for feeling or experiencing different points of view. I meet up with locals or at least I try to. So if there are any from that lineage or anybody that would like to train. I'm a friendly and respectful dude.

JK

 

[LFJ]

I'm American, but live on the other side of the world now. The closest to you is probably Gary Lam lineage, but what they do is quite different. He has created a lot of techniques and sequences to fill out the levels of his curriculum, which I am not a fan of.

 

[PiedmontChun]

Not true. Just takes different body mechanics then a WC elbow down punch. Hardest punch Ive ever experienced was a vertical fist boxers/ WC/ hook/ straight hybrid punch with elbow up kinda... I'm not sure what to really even call it. I've seen Alan Orr punch kind of like it.

It was through a focus mitt on my chest. I have been hit hard in my life and KO'd for a second from a sucker punch. But this "demonstration" punch at maybe 50% power knocked the fight/ life right out of me. It was a chest punch that rattled my whole body from head to toe. Happened just recently. It was freaking cool!

I suppose I could have specified that trying to throw a WC STRAIGHT PUNCH without the elbow behind it is weak. I thought that was certainly implied given the drill in the video being discussed. When you punch a certain way 90% of the time and generally keep elbow low to cover center and feel incoming force, then all of a suden abandon that for a drill...... its less than optimal and appears to be wrong to me eyes. That was my point. Like Vajramusti pointed out, there are other WC options from that point like the whipping punch he refers to. My school calls it a jumping punch but I believe its the same. For for the purpose of the drill theres no reason for that if the timing of a punch is just done correctly and the punch can spring forward with the elbow behind it.

Regarding "punching with the whole body"..... I don't think anyone is going to disagree with you. If attacked in the street or in sparring, its silly to rely on only arm and elbow. In drills where you are learning and building reaction / sensitivity, you would break your partner down real fast with that mentality though. I did some free chi-sau with my si-hing yesterday for nearly an hour; if we tried to hit each other with our "whole body" the whole time I think we would have got tired of it real fast. Just saying. You can always ramp up or spar and test stuff under pressure, but if you don't strive for sensitivity in drills that call for it then you are robbing the potential of that exercise.

 

[geezer]

I've been out of town (at a VT seminar in Austin) and just finished catching up on this thread. A couple of quick thoughts:

First, although I find "right" and "wrong" comments unproductive in a discussion, I can appreciate what LFJ says regarding too much emphasis on what he called "energy riddles". Some of the guys I worked with in Austin are masters at that stuff. Mixing it up with their better students was frustrating ...as long as I allowed myself to play that game.

On the other hand, if I just concentrated on putting my fist on their nose (or chest) things went very well. One guy commented that I was beating his "best techniques" with nothing but straight punches. Yeah. That's the whole point!

BTW Don't get me wrong. Personally I still think that "energy riddles" can be useful in training. It's a matter of keeping perspective and not forgetting that what really matters is hitting the other guy.

Now back to the OP. Am I the only one so far to have an issue with using jum-sau counter to pak-da, as shown in the second clip? If you attack with a good strong pak, you will totally free your tan-sau to punch forward. Having lost contact with your punching arm, it will be very difficult for your opponent to defend himself with jum-sau as shown.

And furthermore, if you attack stepping in with your punch, not only will your punch be backed up by your body, but the forearm on your pak-sau arm will become a lan-sau, pinning your opponent's other arm against his chest and (at least momentarily) controlling his center. He certainly cannot turn against the force of your pak to use jum-sau as shown. At least this is my experience.


OK. I Just went back and watched the clip again. Maybe you can use jum-sau to counter if the attacker tries to throw the punch from bong-sau and has a weak pak. Bad timing (as you guys already pointed out).

 

[JPinAZ]

I like to see you hit someone with a principle/concept only..

Lol, yet another snippy comment that adds nothing to the conversation I see!
Ignoring your increasing troll-like behavior, this is the type of response I would expect from someone coming from a technique-focused approach to WC. While I'd be more than happy to show you as it's pretty easy to do, I think the lesson would be lost on you.

Which is why you are probably resorting to these butt-hurt type responses when people share views regarding WC principle - you have yet to be able to discuss or demonstrate anything from a WC concept/principle POV, even when asked directly to do so on several occasions on this forum. But that not a valid excuse for acting this way towards those that do..

 

[Jake104]

I did some free chi-sau with my si-hing yesterday for nearly an hour; if we tried to hit each other with our "whole body" the whole time I think we would have got tired of it real fast. Just saying. You can always ramp up or spar and test stuff under pressure, but if you don't strive for sensitivity in drills that call for it then you are robbing the potential of that exercise.

I still believe you can always use full body mechanics without hurting or tiring yourself out, if relaxed. My mechanics stay the same. Intensity can be ramped up or kept very controlled. My mechanics stay the same. Meaning my body is always behind everything I do. I just might limit it to 20-30% for safe training.

 

[JPinAZ]

I still believe you can always use full body mechanics without hurting or tiring yourself out, if relaxed. My mechanics stay the same. Intensity can be ramped up or kept very controlled. My mechanics stay the same. Meaning my body is always behind everything I do. I just might limit it to 20-30% for safe training.

I agree. If you are getting tired out, it's possible you are not relaxing enough and using too much muscle/tension.
Or, maybe you're training hard and the shots you are giving/taking are wearing you down (kudos if so!)
Or, you could simply be out of shape! lol

 

[Jake104]

Lol, yet another snippy comment that adds nothing to the conversation I see!
Ignoring your increasing troll-like behavior, this is the type of response I would expect from someone coming from a technique-focused approach to WC. While I'd be more than happy to show you as it's pretty easy to do, I think the lesson would be lost on you.

Which is why you are probably resorting to these butt-hurt type responses when people share views regarding WC principle - you have yet to be able to discuss or demonstrate anything from a WC concept/principle POV, even when asked directly to do so on several occasions on this forum. But that not a valid excuse for acting this way towards those that do..

This is not to act like I'm all that. Although it will probably come off that way to some?

I see more and more that many people talk about WC in terms of principles and concepts. But IMO they fail to really get or understand those same principles? It's like they get the elbow in, center line and economy of motion part and the rest of the art is techniques. Opponent does technique A, and I counter with either ABC or 123 techniques. I guess I'm just fortunate that I was never taught in that way. I get it. Maybe not all of it, but I get it. It seems some people will never.

 

[Jake104]

Or, you could simply be out of shape! lol

Being in half decent shape really does make a difference. Unless your a trained one strike killer.

 

[Jake104]

This is not to act like I'm all that. Although it will probably come off that way to some?

I see more and more that many people talk about WC in terms of principles and concepts. But IMO they fail to really get or understand those same principles? It's like they get the elbow in, center line and economy of motion part and the rest of the art is techniques. Opponent does technique A, and I counter with either ABC or 123 techniques. I'm just fortunate to never have been taught in that way. I get it. Maybe not all of it, but I get it. It seems like some people will never.

 

[Jake104]

Oops trying to edit post and re-posted.

 

[LFJ]

Personally I still think that "energy riddles" can be useful in training. It's a matter of keeping perspective and not forgetting that what really matters is hitting the other guy.

Useful in what way? So, you get good at solving energy riddles with a partner trying to do the same thing, but another guy comes along just focussing on hitting you (still in chi-sau), and suddenly you're not so good at it anymore. Isn't that exactly what you did to those guys? And this is supposed to work when someone is throwing blinding punches from no pre-contact in free fighting? There's simply no chance to "play that game" anymore. So, I don't see the usefulness.

In fact, at many points in the Fong video posted the student should have just been clearing to hit, but was instead concentrating on his hands. Not that he would have been very successful against his sifu, but it's no wonder he was getting frustrated just concentrating on his hands and solving those energy riddles.

 

[LFJ]

OK. I Just went back and watched the clip again. Maybe you can use jum-sau to counter if the attacker tries to throw the punch from bong-sau and has a weak pak. Bad timing (as you guys already pointed out).

Yup, as I mentioned in the OP, if done with correct timing that response would be very difficult if not impossible. It's also a matter of pak placement on the arm. Too low and they may still be able to drop their arm on top like that, but maybe not if the pak is strong enough.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I still believe you can always use full body mechanics without hurting or tiring yourself out, if relaxed. My mechanics stay the same. Intensity can be ramped up or kept very controlled. My mechanics stay the same. Meaning my body is always behind everything I do. I just might limit it to 20-30% for safe training.

I can agree with this. I might have assumed or interpreted a different meaning with your initial "punch with the whole body" comment.

 

[guy b.]

I don't teach and don't make videos myself, but I think some of what I'm talking about can be seen in, for example, that gwo-sau video I posted on the other thread

Hang on, why are you giving me so much grief on the kfm forum over not posting a clip of my training if you are exactly the same?

 

[geezer]

Hang on, why are you giving me so much grief on the kfm forum over not posting a clip of my training if you are exactly the same?

Hey Guy! Welcome to MartialTalk. It's great that you decided to join us over here ...but please leave those old arguments back on that other forum. Disagreements? Strong opinions? It's all good, and makes for good discussion. But don't carry a grudge or follow people, hounding them from thread to thread to make a point. Keep the attitude respectful and positive and you'll like it here.

So for starters, tell us a bit about yourself. A few of us know you a little from the other forum, but the rest could use an intro. We've got a dept. called "Meet and Greet" ...it's a great place to start. -- Steve aka "Geezer" (Grumblegeezer).

 

[guy b.]

No intention to hound anyone, was just surprised to read this. No reply expected or desired