Paak-da chi-sau entry

[LFJ]

Came across these videos on paak-da, I assume a common chi-sau entry in most lineages. Wondering what the consensus here is on what is shown. Do you all agree with it? Is this how you do it?

He shows two timings. Personally, I think both timings, the paak, and the punch are all wrong. I'll explain why and what I think is more optimal if someone else doesn't come up with it first. Done properly, it would make his simple counter much more difficult to pull off.

 

[wckf92]

Ok...I'll bite. No, not how I do it.
1) why pak if your partner doesn't feed you the energy to do so? (ok, I get it, its a skill learning drill...so lets move on)
2) why roll down from bong to tan before launching the punch?

Video 1:
- IMHO - As his high fook sao is coming down to the low fook sao position...and as his tan is pressing upwards/forwards towards his partners face...that (if you were to do this "drill") would seem to be a little better scenario. So his left hand would have more of a Jum punch energy...while his right hand would have more of a tan / rising punch energy.
- He could also move forward into his partner while doing what I just described.
- He could also just rotate his horse to the right; use his low fook sao to sink a jum / punch over the guys tan, collapsing his elbow...while maintaining pressure with his right hand to keep partner in check.

Video 2:
- I'll just say that the guy in blue, I don't agree with what his right hand does (rolling backwards, underneath, and coming up ).
- I'm ok with using footwork, Wu sao, etc...but I suppose there are many different ways of training and responses to something like this. For example: you can deal with the pak punch chi sau by staying put and lop'ing the guy.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I do it a bit differently but the info is generally good.

 

[JPinAZ]

It's a very detailed explanation of the mechanics for the technique he is demonstrating. Unfortunately, when going off these 2 clips, this technique-focused approach to chi sau is a very basic/limited view of what WC is and IMO can be what leads others in the MA's community to not take WC seriously as a fighting art.

To clarify since that might sound a bit harsh lol - When in this type of squared-up, 2 hands connected configuration you should only go forward to enter your opponent's space when there is a distortion in their structure/energy, timing or facing. There was no mention of any WC concepts that drive the action, or, even more importantly, why he's even doing the motion in the first place - which if only going off of these 2 clips, gives me the impression that they view chi sau as simply a bunch of combinations, tricks & attempted lucky techniques (ie, I do a move, they do a move, etc). From my experience, WC is a lot more than moves and counters and this is really missing the mark on what WC is (chi sau or otherwise).

 

[Vajramusti]

It's a very detailed explanation of the mechanics for the technique he is demonstrating. Unfortunately, when going off these 2 clips, this technique-focused approach to chi sau is a very basic/limited view of what WC is and IMO can be what leads others in the MA's community to not take WC seriously as a fighting art.

To clarify since that might sound a bit harsh lol - When in this type of squared-up, 2 hands connected configuration you should only go forward to enter your opponent's space when there is a distortion in their structure/energy, timing or facing. There was no mention of any WC concepts that drive the action, or, even more importantly, why he's even doing the motion in the first place - which if only going off of these 2 clips, gives me the impression that they view chi sau as simply a bunch of combinations, tricks & attempted lucky techniques (ie, I do a move, they do a move, etc). From my experience, WC is a lot more than moves and counters and this is really missing the mark on what WC is (chi sau or otherwise).

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His comments seem to be based on fut sao wing chun-though he just labels his multiple postings in atleast 3 iternet forums as"wing chun"

 

[Danny T]

In 1st video some of his basic premise is good. The attack in the manner he presents is not how we would do it. The counter in the 2nd video is something we would not do. His statement of going with the force is on the 2nd move not the first. Where is the counter or yielding of the force on the pak movement. We would stick and roll into a low bong sao turning in the opposite direction. Shutting down his pak. If he attempted a rt punch my left fook prevents his attack. If he forces the punch I jum and counter punch with the left or Biu with the rt as a counter punch.

 

[Jake104]

I watched the videos with sound off. But my counter for 1st would be to slip in under his fook and choke him out with an arm in choke. Second video I'd slip in under his fook and choke him out with an arm in choke. And there would be nothing he could do about it

 

[Jake104]

The guy in the video usually has good explanations of things. He and I just kind of got into it on youtube about sparring. He tried to insult me so I checked him. Besides that I like some of there videos. I like the lineage. Its just like JPinAZ said, most is very basic.

 

[Callen]

The Windy City Wing Chun guys usually post informative videos with a technical approach to their explanations. They are direct students of Augustine Fong.

 

[LFJ]

1) why pak if your partner doesn't feed you the energy to do so? (ok, I get it, its a skill learning drill...so lets move on)

Right, as JPinAZ said, there was no mention of why and when. But even if he got that part right, his timing was still off. So, we look at that...

2) why roll down from bong to tan before launching the punch?

Precisely because his timing was wrong.

It's a bad idea to start a punch from that bong position. The hand is near the partner's opposite shoulder and the elbow high. The elbow follows a quarter-circle to get back into alignment for the punch, which is a huge movement easily detected by the partner, even by sight, if initiated from bong, giving them all kinds of reaction time, so any response could shut it down before the punch even gets into alignment.

Both of his timings were punching off the bong; one at the apex of the motion during the roll (reversing the path) and one when the action stops, giving the partner even more physical and mental preparation. Both wrong for these reasons. There is no reason this should not be shut down every single time.

Video 1:
- IMHO - As his high fook sao is coming down to the low fook sao position...and as his tan is pressing upwards/forwards towards his partners face...that (if you were to do this "drill") would seem to be a little better scenario. So his left hand would have more of a Jum punch energy...while his right hand would have more of a tan / rising punch energy.

Exactly. That is one good timing, because the right punching arm will already be in alignment ready to shoot forward when released. The partner's arms will also be almost parallel and he will be mid-action, physically and mentally.

The second timing would be coming down from bong as your hand is pointed at their face and your elbow in good punching alignment. In these two timings, your hand will literally be inches from their face, so when it shoots forward (may use palm for safety), there will be very little time for it to be detected and shut down.

One of the main reasons for chi-sau drilling is to develop usable fighting attributes like timing, speed, reaction time, and appropriate response. It's a mutual development drill. If you use the wrong timing, you are doing a disservice to your partner who is not under much pressure. If your timing is correct, your partner must react fast with an appropriate response or be hit. So, this drill should be used to improve their reaction time and response just as much as your timing and speed. As done in these clips, neither partner is improving anything useful for fighting, only technique vs technique ideas with chi-sau.

 

[wckf92]

Right,

Precisely...

Exactly...

 

[Jake104]

The Windy City Wing Chun guys usually post informative videos with a technical approach to their explanations. They are direct students of Augustine Fong.

Seminar students I believe? There videos have gotten better over the years. I actually like Sifu Fong's WC. In this video you can see he has good control of the centerline structure and energy awareness.

 

[Vajramusti]

Seminar students I believe? There videos have gotten better over the years. I actually like Sifu Fong's WC. In this video you can see he has good control of the centerline structure and energy awareness.

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He does and his better students do too

 

[Jake104]

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He does and his better students do too

I kind of figured that. You can only get so much from seminars. I'm not knocking those guys. But having a teacher year round makes things that much easier. I spend about 10 hrs a week with mine and what difference it's made.

 

[LFJ]

I actually like Sifu Fong's WC. In this video you can see he has good control of the centerline structure and energy awareness.

Really? That was an incredibly painful video to watch. All it shows is poor Wing Chun and lack of instruction. That's why the guy thinks it's "superior blocking".

The guy's problem is that he's too focused on his hands and giving himself these pointless energy riddles to solve instead of clearing to hit, and when he tries to hit it's at the wrong time and in the wrong way. Of course he's getting blocked.

Then his frustration turns into an attitude of master-worship, and all Fong can say as to why it's not working for him is "because I'm me" and "get better", and never answers any of his questions in a way that he learns anything. I would stop immediately and tell him his entire approach is wrong.

 

[Jake104]

Really? That was an incredibly painful video to watch. All it shows is poor Wing Chun and lack of instruction. That's why the guy thinks it's "superior blocking".

The guy's problem is that he's too focused on his hands and giving himself these pointless energy riddles to solve instead of clearing to hit, and when he tries to hit it's at the wrong time and in the wrong way. Of course he's getting blocked.

Then his frustration turns into an attitude of master-worship, and all Fong can say as to why it's not working for him is "because I'm me" and "get better", and never answers any of his questions in a way that he learns anything. I would stop immediately and tell him his entire approach is wrong.

The video isn't a lesson? It's just a light hearted demo showcasing Sifu Fong's skill. I'd imagine that's not how he teaches? IDK, cause he's not my teacher.

I have grown a bit in my martial arts journey. In the past i'd look at a video like that one and probably have the same opinion as you. Now I can see what he's trying to demonstrate. He's demonstrating controlling the line and using full body structure. What the student is doing, I really could give two sheets about.

Now you posted a video of PB previously? So I'm assuming this is how you do chi sao? I noticed he likes to bump people out of chi sao range? Which he's very good at IMO. And it looks like really good full body structured chi sao? I actually have a habit of doing this also. Problem for me is when I bump a non WC guy. Let say MMA guy or kick boxer. I bump them into there power range and I end up chasing after them. Guess what? It doesn't workout very well for me. Now I'm nowhere near PB skill level. So maybe that's it? What does work, is forcing them to stay in my chi sao range. Which is also there grappling range. (Sigh) grappling range so scary? Actually that's where I like to be nowadays. Take this post however you like? I have respect for all parties involved in this post and take no responsibility for offending anyone.

 

[Vajramusti]

The video isn't a lesson? It's just a light hearted demo showcasing Sifu Fong's skill. I'd imagine that's not how he teaches? IDK, cause he's not my teacher.

I have grown a bit in my martial arts journey. In the past i'd look at a video like that one and probably have the same opinion as you. Now I can see what he's trying to demonstrate. He's demonstrating controlling the line and using full body structure. What the student is doing, I really could give two sheets about.

Now you posted a video of PB previously? So I'm assuming this is how you do chi sao? I noticed he likes to bump people out of chi sao range? Which he's very good at IMO. And it looks like really good full body structured chi sao? I actually have a habit of doing this also. Problem for me is when I bump a non WC guy. Let say MMA guy or kick boxer. I bump them into there power range and I end up chasing after them. Guess what? It doesn't workout very well for me. Now I'm nowhere near PB skill level. So maybe that's it? What does work, is forcing them to stay in my chi sao range. Which is also there grappling range. (Sigh) grappling range so scary? Actually that's where I like to be nowadays. Take this post however you like? I have respect for all parties involved in this post and take no responsibility for offending anyone.

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You are correct-the Fong sifu video is light hearted piece of play-it's not an instructional video and it is not put on you tube by him.
His control is exceptional and he does know how to apply his skills.
ThePB roll and push seems to be done by many wsl followers.Some like Gary Lam have a mattress ona wall used for shoving people. I don't do it that way-but if that helps someone-ok by me.
The wing chun world is quite diverse.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Problem for me is when I bump a non WC guy. Let say MMA guy or kick boxer. I bump them into there power range and I end up chasing after them.

You can punch and you can throw, but after some CMA system invented "push", other CMA systems added "push" into their training. IMO, unless you can "push" your opponent off the cliff, or into a heavy traffic, it has no combat value. Old saying said, "Keep your friend close but keep your enemy closer".

When you do fishing, you will use hook to pull the fish toward you, you will not push that fish away and then start to chase it. Why did people invent "push" in the 1st place is totally unlogical.

 

[Jake104]

IMO, unless you can "push" your opponent off the cliff, or into a heavy traffic, it has no combat value. Old saying said, "Keep your friend close but keep your enemy closer".

When you do fishing, you will use hook to pull the fish toward you, you will not push that fish away and then start to chase it. Why did people invent "push" in the 1st place is totally unlogical.

You are right! I'd practice that technique if I could find training partners and we had one of these suits. Man vs truck @ 1.38. Falling off cliff @ 1.45. This guy is cool! He's like a superhero!

 

[futsaowingchun]

It's a very detailed explanation of the mechanics for the technique he is demonstrating. Unfortunately, when going off these 2 clips, this technique-focused approach to chi sau is a very basic/limited view of what WC is and IMO can be what leads others in the MA's community to not take WC seriously as a fighting art.

To clarify since that might sound a bit harsh lol - When in this type of squared-up, 2 hands connected configuration you should only go forward to enter your opponent's space when there is a distortion in their structure/energy, timing or facing. There was no mention of any WC concepts that drive the action, or, even more importantly, why he's even doing the motion in the first place - which if only going off of these 2 clips, gives me the impression that they view chi sau as simply a bunch of combinations, tricks & attempted lucky techniques (ie, I do a move, they do a move, etc). From my experience, WC is a lot more than moves and counters and this is really missing the mark on what WC is (chi sau or otherwise).

I agree on several of your points,but I think this video is not ment to show the why? but the how. It is geared more for the beginner not someone who has a lot of experience. I like the video even though I do it a bit different.