One Inch Punch Origin

[elder999]

Comparing the WC / Bruce Lee one-inch punch with the Taiji / Xingyi version; The WC version (although combat viable) is less "internal", it is weaker, and is mechanically lacking. Bruce didn't have the training for this comparison, had he lived longer that may have been different.

G

Hmm, didn't I say as much? Albeit in a less wordy, more Yoda-like fashion:

Hmm.....maybe if Bruce Lee had a root....:lol:

(more to come...)

Then, of course, there's this:

Western Boxing, of course. Haven't you noticed how the standard Wing Chun stance looks suspiciously like the London Prize Ring rules Boxing stance?

View attachment 18118


http://books.google.com/books?id=Ct...96#v=onepage&q=wing chun ready stance&f=false

<ducking>



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Still not convinced that WC isn't a 19th century Chinese answer to western boxing, but that's another thread <ducking> :lol:

More to the point, I'm not so certain that Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch is WC's one inch punch, or that modern JKD's one inch punch is Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch....never mind the internal stuff, which I'll touch on briefly.....

While Bruce Lee's structure is sound, it's not the same-as others have pointed out-as the "internal" versions.

Here's Bruce:

here's the same, from another angle-please ignore the advert :lfao:

We can see from these vids that 1 inch is actually more like 3-6 inches, and, that while the punch starts in the foot, it can't help but involve the wrist, elbow and shoulder

It's lacking "root" in that it has "hip," rather than pelvis and the knees are-in my opinion-not quite right-they're off-balance.

Here's Rick Tucci, one of the more reasonable JKD flavor go-to guys, giving a good explanation and demonstration of the JKD "one-inch punch":

And here's Richard Bustillo giving a good bio-mechanical breakdown:

I should now point out how completely "un-rooted" each person who received the punches in these vids was-it doesn't really take a "great deal of power" to knock people standing the way they were.

Anyway, it might have been interesting to see Bruce deliver this punch from a horse-stance, but if he ever did, it isn't on film....

So, there's a one inch punch in western boxing (which is what Bruce's looks like to me)

And there's one in WC (which isn't the same as Bruce's, and sort of is, but notice how they don't show Leung Ting's feet):

Of course, what you've really pointed out, Kirk, is that human bio-mechanical structure is, in fact, well....human bio-mechanical structure, and that's how they all work.....there's a "one inch punch" in sanchin kata which deals more with the pelvis, and a "one inch punch" in western boxing, and internal "one inch punches" in hsing yi, tai chi and pakua, that are more about the pelvis as well, and more balanced structure in the knees (and they'll keep their heels down, I think , unlike most WC and JKD people), but they all are about developing and demonstrating short-distance striking power. (Though I could not, unfortunately, find good video examples of each of them...Okinawan/Japanese, Western, and Chinese internal-maybe somebody else?)

In the end, it's kinda like asking "who invented the arm bar?"

They all did. :lol:

 

[geezer]

And there's one in WC (which isn't the same as Bruce's, and sort of is, but notice how they don't show Leung Ting's feet):

...and internal "one inch punches" in hsing yi, tai chi and pakua, that are more about the pelvis as well, and more balanced structure in the knees (and they'll keep their heels down, I think , unlike most WC and JKD people), but they all are about developing and demonstrating short-distance striking power.

In that old video of Leung Ting demonstrating his Wing Tsun "one-inch punch" he is working from a traditional WT "Yee gee kim yeung ma" or "character-two adduction stance" with his feet flat and the ground and slightly adducted or turned in. He delivered the punch two ways. One picks you up and slams you back without penetrating too deeply. The second, which he did in this tape with considerable restraint, doesn't move your body much but penetrates inside like a knife ...and that one hurts like a bear!

BTW I happen to know this because the blond, curly haired kid getting punched at the beginning of that video was me ...nearly 30 years ago!

 

[elder999]

In that old video of Leung Ting demonstrating his Wing Tsun "one-inch punch" he is working from a traditional WT "Yee gee kim yeung ma" or "character-two adduction stance" with his feet flat and the ground and slightly adducted or turned in. He delivered the punch two ways. One picks you up and slams you back without penetrating too deeply. The second, which he did in this tape with considerable restraint, doesn't move your body much but penetrates inside like a knife ...and that one hurts like a bear!

BTW I happen to know this because the blond, curly haired kid getting punched at the beginning of that video was me ...nearly 30 years ago!

Thanks, geezer-that's awfully cool!

I knew he was basically "heels down," and I've often remarked, over the years, on the similarities between yee gee kim yeung ma and sanchin......just sayin'. :lol:

This is, of course, just one way JKD's "one inch punch" differs from WC's: Bruce's stance was different, and JKD people of today's more so.

JKD's "one inch punch" has some WC in it, but it mostly comes from western boxing....via Jack Dempsey, and fencing, and a little bit of genius from Bruce Lee-who never, ever, EVER did or showed anything "advanced." He just did the basics, really, really, REALLY well.....like they were "advanced," even....:lol: :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

JKD's "one inch punch" has some WC in it, but it mostly comes from western boxing....via Jack Dempsey, and fencing, and a little bit of genius from Bruce Lee-who never, ever, EVER did or showed anything "advanced." He just did the basics, really, really, REALLY well.....like they were "advanced," even....:lol: :asian:

Said it before and I will say it again, Jun Fan Gung Fu is basically Wing Chun on Steroids.... but to be even closer to the reality of it Jun Fan Gung Fu is Siu Lim Tao on Steroids... JKD however is where you start to see more obvious incorporation of things like western boxing and fencing

And your right, it is all pretty basic stuff.....just pretty basic stuff done really well

 

[K-man]

Goju karate also has a 'one inch' punch that I saw demonstrated in Okinawa. Whatever its origins, I think it is safe to say it has been around much longer than Bruce Lee. :asian:

 

[elder999]

Said it before and I will say it again, Jun Fan Gung Fu is basically Wing Chun on Steroids.... but to be even closer to the reality of it Jun Fan Gung Fu is Siu Lim Tao on Steroids... JKD however is where you start to see more obvious incorporation of things like western boxing and fencing

And your right, it is all pretty basic stuff.....just pretty basic stuff done really well

I might have made the same observation at one point, though I'd say "structurally, Jun Fan Gung Fu is Siu Lim Tao on steroids," there's more than a little bil gee in JKD. I think most practitioners would be better off with more of the WC system(s) as basics, though....

Goju karate also has a 'one inch' punch that I saw demonstrated in Okinawa. Whatever its origins, I think it is safe to say it has been around much longer than Bruce Lee. :asian:

I don't have to tell you, K-man: Goju karate=sanchin kata-and it's sanchin that the Okinawan "one inch" punch mostly comes from (don't really know muc about things like hiniandi, but I bet it's in there, too....sanchin or not....) :asian:

 

[Happy-Papi]

There is no such thing as a one inch punch. This, my friends, is a one inch push. Think about it.

Thinking about it and no matter how I try, it really does look more like a push than a punch. Or may may have just been doing it wrong??

 

[elder999]

Thinking about it and no matter how I try, it really does look more like a push than a punch. Or may may have just been doing it wrong??

A punch IS a push.....:wink:

 

[nocturnal_]

Thinking about it and no matter how I try, it really does look more like a push than a punch. Or may may have just been doing it wrong??

In Tsui Tsong Tin lineage, The Wing Chun one inch (not really one inch, more like 3-5 inches) punch is done by transferring body weight to the fist. The power is not generated from the hip. It's different to Karate punches.

Leung Ting's one inch punch in the video looks like done in a similar way (transferring body weight to the fist).

 

[elder999]

Actually, I was reading some of your posts on bareknuckle boxing just the other day, and did notice a few semblances to Wing Chun. Granted, that's kind of like saying that I notice a few semblances between English and German.

If one looks at Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do, which was never meant to be a "book," and was only a collection of "student's notes," musings, poetry and sketches-a journal, if you like-one finds many things other things said, among them Krishnamutri-Lee's favorite philosopher-and Jack Dempsey, almost verbatim or only slightly paraphrased, from his Championship Boxing. The straight lead comes right from there, as do many of JKD's angles, foot placement, fist placement and mass-movement.

In Tsui Tsong Tin lineage, The Wing Chun one inch (not really one inch, more like 3-5 inches) punch is done by transferring body weight to the fist. The power is not generated from the hip. It's different to Karate punches.

Leung Ting's one inch punch in the video looks like done in a similar way (transferring body weight to the fist).

Is that weight or mass? Hmms? :lol:

 

[mook jong man]

I am from Tsui Seung Tin lineage under the late Sifu Jim Fung.
In the Wing Chun version of the one inch punch , the only thing that has to move is the striking arm itself.

Hip , foot , shoulder movement etc is not necessary , when the stance is correct with the toes pointing inwards and the body sufficiently relaxed , all the potential power of the body will be focused towards a focal point on the centre line.

This video shows how in our lineage we transfer body mass to the point of contact using the "Sil Lum Tao" state.
Which is really all a one inch punch is , transferring body mass to the point of contact.

[video=youtube_share;czC3XdVNzgo]http://youtu.be/czC3XdVNzgo[/video]

 

[lklawson]

Still not convinced that WC isn't a 19th century Chinese answer to western boxing, but that's another thread <ducking> :lol:

Oh, you rascal!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Cyriacus]

Here goes everything...

Lawson, Elder. Youre both wrong.
Wing Chun IS Western Boxing. Its just slightly cheaper, and made in China. Like my old knife collection.

I KNOW, OKAY? That was an awful joke. Its just i was looking at my knife collection, and then i read this thread, and it just came to me! Please dont hurt me.
Also, so noone gets upset, chinese knives are pretty good. Its just that its cheaper to have knives made in China, as opposed to, say, the USA or Taiwan. It actually benefits the company having them manufactured, often at no expense to the customer (despite the odd lemon, but that happens anyway). So, dont freak out if you immediately read cheaper as meaning crappy :=) That said, most of the time knives get made in China AFTER having been made at a higher production cost in the US or whatever for a while, THEN get made in China after that. Thats how this is funny. Gerber is a good example.

Edit: Ive edited this post a few times. Just incase anyone read the original before i explained how this is a joke...

 

[lklawson]

Hmm.....maybe if Bruce Lee had a root....:lol:

I'm sorry, but every time I read this I can't help but think, "Bruce had root? How the heck did he get root! That's a privileged account! No way he should have anything more than a frick'n user account!

And then it hits me... "Chinese Hackers."



I'm sorry. It's a professional flaw.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Here goes everything...

Lawson, Elder. Youre both wrong.
Wing Chun IS Western Boxing. Its just slightly cheaper, and made in China. Like my old knife collection.

I KNOW, OKAY? That was an awful joke. Its just i was looking at my knife collection, and then i read this thread, and it just came to me! Please dont hurt me.
Also, so noone gets upset, chinese knives are pretty good. Its just that its cheaper to have knives made in China, as opposed to, say, the USA or Taiwan. It actually benefits the company having them manufactured, often at no expense to the customer (despite the odd lemon, but that happens anyway). So, dont freak out if you immediately read cheaper as meaning crappy :=) That said, most of the time knives get made in China AFTER having been made at a higher production cost in the US or whatever for a while, THEN get made in China after that. Thats how this is funny. Gerber is a good example.

Edit: Ive edited this post a few times. Just incase anyone read the original before i explained how this is a joke...

We're all just having fun, of course. But the truth is that there have been some people who were truly serious about a link between WC and LPR Boxing, noting similarities in stance, hand position, basic punches, and some footwork.

First time I saw this theory floated was in a Black Belt Magazine article some 20 years ago or so. Stuck in my mind. Whether or not it's true is kinda irrelevant, honestly. Both are have evolved significantly different. And there's no way to tell any how. Many believe that the WC origin story about a female Monk and her disciple is, at best, somewhat exaggerated and, at worst, fiction. But it's still a great story. Personally, as if my opinion on WC's origin story matters, I think it's probably unintentionally fictionalized or exaggerated similar to the way cultural myths are passed on. I just can't see a culture as male-centric as China's having some guy think to himself, "We'll tell everyone that a chick created this art and that explains why it looks different from most other Kung Fu. It's better than admitting we swiped it from gwailo after they beat us up, even if they were men!" If you were going to invent an origin story to hide the fact that round-eyes were beating you up and you swiped some of their techs, wouldn't you create an origin story about the gods teaching you in a dream or some ancient, hidden, previously secret, lineage or something? Nope. Not buying the "better an invented chick than gwailo" theory at all.

There may or may not have been some cross-cultural borrowing. It doesn't really matter. All the speculation is really good for is 1) Having a bit of fun 2) Pissing off your WC friend who's really sensitive about the origin story (which is just variant of #1 when you think about it).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Cyriacus]

Now all i need to do is find some Wing Chun people to pick on.
Oh wait, im already here! In that case, i need to wait for some unfortunate soul to go to the meet and greet, who does Wing Chun. Then i can randomly greet him by announcing that Wing Chun is actually Boxing, and direct him to this thread.
Even if its years from now.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I might have made the same observation at one point, though I'd say "structurally, Jun Fan Gung Fu is Siu Lim Tao on steroids," there's more than a little bil gee in JKD. I think most practitioners would be better off with more of the WC system(s) as basics, though....

The gentleman I briefly trained JKD/JF with might have agreed. He did feel that you really need to train JF before you got into JKD but he also felt that training in Wing Chun was a good place to start as well prior to either JF or JKD. It made learning JF quicker and easier and it made understanding JKD easier. He looked at JF as a high school diploma and JKD as a college degree

 

[lklawson]

First time I saw this theory floated was in a Black Belt Magazine article some 20 years ago or so.

Ah. Here it is:

"In Search of Wing Chun's Roots--Did it Evolve from Western Boxing or the Shaolin Temple?", by Wing Chun instructor Karl Godwin, Black Belt Magazine, June 1986.

It is 100% speculative and circumstantial but he does make some intriguing observations.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[geezer]

Ah. Here it is: "In Search of Wing Chun's Roots--Did it Evolve from Western Boxing or the Shaolin Temple?", by Wing Chun instructor Karl Godwin, Black Belt Magazine, June 1986.
It is 100% speculative and circumstantial but he does make some intriguing observations. --Peace favor your sword, Kirk

Yep. It is all speculation. Was there contact with Western boxers and actual borrowing of technique, or is it a case of convergent evolution where two unrelated systems become externally similar through adaptation to similar environmental pressures (bare-knuckle boxing) ...like the outward similarities of a shark and a dolphin due to mutual adaptation to the same marine environment? Either way it's interesting to think about.

I also wonder about the irony of the origin stories of Wing Chun, at least as recounted in the Yip Man lineage. What could be more culturally bizarre in 19th and early 20th century Canton than claiming that your kung-fu was invented by an old woman (Ng Mui), first mastered by a teenage girl (Yim Wing Chun) and subsequently passed down through a drag queen (Leung Yee Tai)? If you think about these stories in their cultural context, they are hilarious! And, whether historically true or fabricated, they really communicate the essence of the system ...that Wing Chun was not supposed to be like other more popular systems. It was intentionally different. Moreover, if your Wing Chun couldn't be applied by an old woman or teenage girl, then you are doing it wrong. :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yep. It is all speculation. Was there contact with Western boxers and actual borrowing of technique, or is it a case of convergent evolution where two unrelated systems become externally similar through adaptation to similar environmental pressures (bare-knuckle boxing) ...like the outward similarities of a shark and a dolphin due to mutual adaptation to the same marine environment? Either way it's interesting to think about.

I also wonder about the irony of the origin stories of Wing Chun, at least as recounted in the Yip Man lineage. What could be more culturally bizarre in 19th and early 20th century Canton than claiming that your kung-fu was invented by an old woman (Ng Mui), first mastered by a teenage girl (Yim Wing Chun) and subsequently passed down through a drag queen (Leung Yee Tai)? If you think about these stories in their cultural context, they are hilarious! And, whether historically true or fabricated, they really communicate the essence of the system ...that Wing Chun was not supposed to be like other more popular systems. It was intentionally different. Moreover, if your Wing Chun couldn't be applied by an old woman or teenage girl, then you are doing it wrong. :asian:

I think even Ip Chun, in one of his books was not all that sure of that origin story since he coudl find no proof. But what they heck, ever seen some of the Taijiquan origin stories, now that is some entertaininig reading