Martial arts vs. stupidity

[skribs]

I think "Karate" is a valid word to use for generic martial arts, especially most Asian martial arts. According to the infallible source (Wikipedia), Karate was originally written as "Chinese hand" and later changed to "Empty hand". That means "Karate" means "Martial Art From China", and therefore falls into the realm of Kung Fu. Therefore what you hate is what you love in spite of what you hate.

 

[vladone97]

I think you need to give examples before you can make this type of statement.

I gave examples. Check some of my previous posts here.

​And with the type of instruction you are receiving you will never be a master.

I'm not even expecting to become a master any time soon. I'm simply trying to learn as much as I can.

I think you are confusing things here. That is not 'karate logic' at all. In fact I have never heard of it happening like that in any style of MA.

When I say "karate logic", I mean karate as it's taught in mcdojos.

 

[vladone97]

But you shouldn't go making value judgements and technical assessments of arts you've never studied on an internet forum. You clearly do not know much, if anything about karate ryu to make the statements that you make.

My comparison between kung fu and karate is based on what I've researched. Anywhere I was looking, the main difference was always presented as circularity vs. linearity.

 

[vladone97]

Then you haven't done ten years of JKD or any Chinese styles.

Suppose you've learnt everything you know about computers on your own, using the attempt-failure principle. Does that mean you can't actually use a computer?

 

[Gnarlie]

Suppose you've learnt everything you know about computers on your own, using the attempt-failure principle. Does that mean you can't actually use a computer?

It means you learn slowly and the end product may not be the most efficient and effective way of achieving the desired result.

Learning to use a computer by trial and error is completely different as with a computer there are an artificially limited number of possible outcomes.

A fight is not limited in the same way and such inefficiency may garner rather undesirable results.

If you're not learning with an instructor, you're not learning anything worth learning.

Gnarlie

 

[K-man]

Have you read my previous posts here as well or are you just trolling?

Ouch! Xue an Internet troll? Really? He's been here nearly eight years and I've never seen him accused of trolling before.

Let's see ... An Internet troll ...

A person whose sole purpose in life is to seek out people to argue with on the internet over extremely trivial issues. Such arguments can happen on blogs, Facebook, Myspace and a host of others.

An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Now I ask you, how much of that applies to Xue, or should that be You?
:asian:

 

[Dinkydoo]

Suppose you've learnt everything you know about computers on your own, using the attempt-failure principle. Does that mean you can't actually use a computer?

I tried to learn programming by myself. I picked up a lot, but my knowledge was nowhere near complete and I frequently did things really inefficiently (or just plain wrong) because I hadn't been guided by someone who had been there, done that and bought the t-shirt for several years. I didn't REALLY start learning until I began the software engineering and development degree.

 

[ballen0351]

http://www.iogkf.com/countries/Romania.html

You wanna do some real research and training on Karate give these guys a try. All that other nonsense you think you know about Karate is just wrong.

My comparison between kung fu and karate is based on what I've researched. Anywhere I was looking, the main difference was always presented as circularity vs. linearity.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My comparison between kung fu and karate is based on what I've researched. Anywhere I was looking, the main difference was always presented as circularity vs. linearity.

Your research is lacking. Not all karate ryu are linear and not all kung fu styles are circular.

Your posts show that you really don't have a good understanding of what kung fu and karate are. You're self trained, and maybe you can fight very well. But that doesn't make you an authority on Asian fighting styles.

Suppose you've learnt everything you know about computers on your own, using the attempt-failure principle. Does that mean you can't actually use a computer?

It would not, anymore than learning everything you know about martial arts on your own, using the attempt-failure principle would mean that you can't actually fight.

But it also would not make me a programmer or technician either. It wouldn't give me the depth of knowledge that a formally trained and certified programmer or technician would have.

Being able to fight doesn't make you a JKD practitioner (though you may be trying to apply Bruce Lee's philosophy to your attempt-failure principle), and it certainly does not give you any time in a formal Chinese system.

Again, you may be able to fight. Being able to fight does not require you to have any formal training whatsoever. And you may be able pick up techniques from videos, books, and others you practice with and incorporate them into what you do. But again, that is not time in a system. What you do may have merit and may work quite well, but it is not the same as actually having time in the systems you mentioned.

Nor does it give you the knowledge to make the technical assessments that you're attempting to make. Not because you can't fight, but because you don't have the exposure to the systems that you're comparing that would give you the ability to make those assessments.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Have you read my previous posts here as well or are you just trolling?

So if you don't like the statement so you go to name calling....

I read your post about Karate that may or may not be JKD..... if you do not know why do you expect others to know

As for the Chinese martial arts stuff.... my understanding here is that you are learning from YouTube. If that is the case, in my opinion, you are not really doing any of them.

 

[MJS]

I'm talking about people who actually study martial arts, not random idiots who have only seen a couple of movies and think they know what you're doing better than you know.

Yet one would assume that if someone is training, that they'd know a little something about the arts out there, or what they're training in, for that matter.

 

[MJS]

I'm trying my best to learn on my own. What do you expect me to do? Get an aeroplane ticket to China and go to the Shaolin temple?

Interestingly enough, doing a quick search online, I found Kyokushin.
http://www.kyokushinkaikan.org/en/branch/europe.html

Oh, BTW, that isn't the only Kyokushin org. in your area.

Hmm...Bujinkan
http://www.winjutsu.com/winlinks.html

I believe someone gave you info for Goju Ryu in your area.

 

[MJS]

I didn't say they were the best lessons. I would rather learn it the wrong way for free and try my best to figure out the correct way than pay to learn the same wrong way and get to think it's the right way.

Doesn't sound like a very productive way of learning, IMO. I think you'd be better off learning from a quality dojo, rather than trying to figure out how to do something you don't know, on your own. Just because I can pull out a cook book and follow directions, doesn't make me a master chef.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Both Karate and Kung Fu are generic terms describing many MAs.

Why are you offended by uninformed people calling all MA karate, and not equally offended when they say kung fu.

I am sure you are not studying kung fu. I am sure your style has a name.

 

[nordin]

Why does everyone praise karate? Not as in "karate is the best and no other style compares to it", but as in "when you say martial arts, you refer strictly to karate". I mean, most people think karate is the only martial art in this world. I do kung fu because I hate karate with all its stereotypes and misconceptions (such as the "karate chop" thing, or "knife hand", for those who know it's not specific to karate). Some examples of what I mean:

• Some of my younger friends know that I've been doing kung fu since I was 5. One day, we were all doing some "sparring" matches (light to no contact, of course). At first, one of them said "Whoever doesn't know karate at all, raise your hands" (most of them would use only the moves they saw in cartoons and video games). I raised my hand. And she said "I thought you've been doing karate since you were 5".
• Another younger firend of mine doesn't do any martial art, but thinks any kick that looks awesome is karate. For example, whenever we meet (it's not very often), she asks me "Can you show me those awesome karate moves of yours?". Every time, I explain her the differences between kung fu and karate (and I think it's not hard to understand that they are completely opposite styles), and every time she forgets. Also, her godbrother does kickboxing, and she asks him the same thing.
• Even one of the famous people from my country (Romania to be exact) said in an interview or something "I was a real tomboy when I was a child. I used to do jiu-jitsu because my childhood was full of Chinese movies with karate". (Seriously? "Chinese movies with karate"?). And to cap it all, she made a reference to Bruce Lee (I don't remember exactly what she said about him, though). Bruce Lee, the creator of Jeet Kune Do!

So, for short, what makes people so stupid? Is it because of TV shows like "Kickin' it", which is about some teens who do karate together but make references to all martial arts? Or is it just something like "if I've never heard of something, then it doesn't exist"?

I must say that you should keep on learning more about martial arts. You will see that a lot of things are NOT clear-cut. I am by no means expert or pro, but some years of reading and researching has taught me a lot about martial arts. Don't be upset about advice from forum members here. Many people here are very experienced and knowledgeable martial art practitioners. They can give you a lot of good tips to check out.

That being said, I guess I get what you wanted to say in your original post. People tend to be ignorant regarding things they don't value. I have few friends that have hobbies I am not very interested in. Despite that, I have learned some interesting bits just by listening what they say. For me it's just being respectful towards my friends to really listen for few minutes, especially if I asked something like ''hey how are you doing with your hobby?'' If you say that you don't like their attitude, I guess I wouldn't too. They are your friends, they practice martial arts too, they spar with you, they ask you to show 'moves', yet they can't remember at least that you're not doing karate. However you have to understand that it's an individual thing; it has nothing to do with all the different karate styles and their practictioners.

I also sympathize with your problems finding teacher. I don't know about Romania, but there are a lot of countries even in Europe where certain Martial arts have few or no professional teachers. Literally you can find places where no one is teaching certain art withinin 200+ miles. There are regions where instead of getting good and recognized Sambo teacher(there are a lot of good sambo guys in former Soviet block countries) MA/MMA gyms find some low level karateka, aikidoka or tkd guy claiming to be bjj blackbelt. When you ask them who awarded them bjj blackbelt you'll get answers like ''I've studied with many sensei, it's my system, I am master of Japanese Jujutsu so I can teach Brazilian variations of it'':hmm:. Same goes for wing chun, muay thai, jkd, Taijiquan etc. People are interested in different arts because of some tv exposure, but there are no teachers. It's very tempting for gym owners to start teaching something trendy. In those places Internet is only way to find some info. If that means searching, reading, comparing, 'cross examining', analyzing ten times in a row just to find one little nugget of knowledge, so be it. It's still better then blindly following some guy/girl who knows that people there are less likely to know when he/she is teaching nonsense.

 

[pgsmith]

... But I think it would be nice if people from around here tried to explain why I'm wrong instead of just saying "hey, mr self-taught, you're wrong" if they see that I'm misinformed. For example, I learnt that there are really fluid karate styles as well, but I still think kung fu is more fluid. I might be wrong about it. If I am, why? Is there the same ammount of fluidity in them? Or, if there are any extreme stereotypes in kung fu besides the ones I've already named, which are they? Or maybe the most important one, what exactly is wrong with my comparison between kung fu and Japanese karate (besided the part with opposite styles, which is currently just an opinion)? What would a correct comparison look like?

No, I don't think I would like to explain anything. Why should I argue with you and attempt to teach you? You have been both rude and closed-minded in this thread, and that combination makes it virtually impossible for you to actually learn anything. Based on your actions and approach here, I wouldn't accept you as a student at the dojo, so why should I do it on-line? Do your own research and really study martial arts. It seems to me like you are simply playing martial arts and making endless excuses about why you can't learn them for real. Then you are expecting everyone to take you seriously and act like your guesses are facts.

I tried to help you earlier in this thread, but I'm done now. Believe what you wish to believe, and play however you want.

 

[Instructor]

Yeah pretty much. Turn off the computer, pick a local school and start learning. Don't worry about what society calls something. If it works for you and you are learning something than that's about all you can ask of it, whatever it may be. Words like Karate are just carved into the culture at this point. Heck I've been teaching my young son Hapkido for a while now and he still tells people Daddy is teaching him Karate. They are just words.. The main thing is how training can improve you both as a person and as a fighter.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When I say "karate logic", I mean karate as it's taught in mcdojos.

How would you know what's taught in any dojo? Given that your own training is McYouTube, I mean?

On the other hand, there is a great deal of truth to describing YouTube as the Worlds Foremost McDojo, so maybe you're an expert on McDojos?

Here's what we know from your postings:
You've never actually trained in a martial art. Just surfed YouTube.
You did apparently go to one school, but since you know more about JKD than the instructor, you decided that what he was teaching wasn't JKD.
You think kung fu is a style - it's not.
You think Chinese martial arts have a monopoly on fluidity.
And other various bits of misunderstanding and plain flat out wrong information.

People have pointed out your errors. Now, you can stomp your feet, cry "I'm right! I know I am!" and you can continue to claim (falsely) that you've studied JKD for ten years. Given the number of people here who have (as another poster pointed out) uniforms older than you are, you won't find this very successful here.

Or you can go find an instructor and unlearn all the junk you've absorbed off YouTube. I'd estimate that at least 99% of the "training" videos on YouBoob are pure junk. And without REAL training, you lack a basis for even knowing which ones are junk and which ones contain a nugget or two that might actually be useful.

Have a nice life.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If I look for an instructor here in Romania, I'd probably know as much as I know right now. Maybe even less. Because they usually don't teach anything.

On what empirical evidence do you base this?

But I think it would be nice if people from around here tried to explain why I'm wrong instead of just saying "hey, mr self-taught, you're wrong" if they see that I'm misinformed.

I and others have tried to explain some things to you, but you clearly are not interested in listening. You quote us and regurgtate your original comments. And this was happening before you made the announcement that you don't really study the styles you originally claimed to. You still keep using the term, "kung fu" as if it is a single art, when it encompasses a broad group of styles, some of which happen to be more linear.

For example, I learnt that there are really fluid karate styles as well, but I still think kung fu is more fluid. I might be wrong about it. If I am, why? Is there the same ammount of fluidity in them? Or, if there are any extreme stereotypes in kung fu besides the ones I've already named, which are they? Or maybe the most important one, what exactly is wrong with my comparison between kung fu and Japanese karate (besided the part with opposite styles, which is currently just an opinion)? What would a correct comparison look like?

First of all, a correct comparison would be style to style, not one broad, meaningless category to another broad and nearly as meaningless category.

Say, Northern Praying Mantis to Goju Ryu, Wing Chun to Kyokushin, Jeet Kune Do to Tang Soo Do, Tai Chi to Shito Ryu,or modern Wushu to Shotokan. These are specific styles that can be compared to one another. Saying "Kung Fu" is like saying "martial arts from China" which is larger than the US, and the term encompasses a very large and very diverse set of arts.

Also, you are using the term fluid when you probably mean circular. One can perform a linear art fluidly, in fact a skilled practitioner should be performing it fluidly. The opposite of fluidity isn't linearity, but stiffness, which has more to do with how you practice than with what you practice.

 

[skribs]

I wouldn't completely discount Youtube. I've used a couple Youtube channels as a supplement and have seen an improvement in my technique. That said, Youtube does not give you:

1) Critical analysis of your own technique (i.e. telling you what you're doing wrong)
2) Benchmarks for speed (follow along with the rest of the class)
3) Encouragement to work on the fitness aspect of the art (i.e. in Tae Kwon Do, we work a lot on flexibility and do some leg strengthening exercises)
4) Training Partners (useful for free sparring or scripted sparring, both which help with distancing and timing)

I thought to myself that I'd like to just use Youtube to learn a second art to supplement what I was learning in class, and realized real quick that without a sparring partner I would miss out on a lot of the practice I would need to be good at the art. Specifically I was thinking of Wing Chun (which I don't believe there's a school for too close to me), and I realized that practicing blocks strictly in the air would be superfluous and there would be no way to work on sticky hands without a training partner. While I might be able to learn most of the raw techniques, I wouldn't be able to practice them in an effective manner.

With that said, I think a striking art is a lot easier to learn by proxy than a grappling art.