Bruce lee vs Wong Jack Man

[drop bear]

We are talking about two guys with very little fight training going at it. A sloppy slap fest would be more likely than any sort of disciplined fight.

Same as when you get footballers boxing.

 

[punisher73]

I would say even worse. Here is a video from the 50's of the "infamous roof top fights" in Hong Kong that BL was such a great streetfighter. It is marked as something from his personal library. I have no idea on that, just posting it to show the fight itself from that time period.

 

[wingchun100]

https://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oak...476835557&sr=1-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland

Very good book. A couple of points that it highlights are that there were VERY few people actually there. It was supposed to be a private thing and agreed that it wouldn't be discussed. BL then started claiming he trashed WJM. Witnesses ALL state that WJM did not look any worse for wear the next day. WJM issued a public challenge to BL to fight in public if he beat him so bad. BL never responded, which also contradicts all those who state BL never backed down from a challenge/fight.

Even before reading this, the BL version sounded "doctored". It was very established that non-chinese were being taught prior to BL. BL throws away his entire approach from a fight he totally dominated. I think it was much closer or not as big a deal as BL tried to make it sound like.

He threw it away because he did not dominate as quickly as he would have liked...or so they say.

 

[Kickboxer101]

https://www.amazon.com/Showdown-Oak...476835557&sr=1-1&keywords=showdown+in+oakland

Very good book. A couple of points that it highlights are that there were VERY few people actually there. It was supposed to be a private thing and agreed that it wouldn't be discussed. BL then started claiming he trashed WJM. Witnesses ALL state that WJM did not look any worse for wear the next day. WJM issued a public challenge to BL to fight in public if he beat him so bad. BL never responded, which also contradicts all those who state BL never backed down from a challenge/fight.

Even before reading this, the BL version sounded "doctored". It was very established that non-chinese were being taught prior to BL. BL throws away his entire approach from a fight he totally dominated. I think it was much closer or not as big a deal as BL tried to make it sound like.

Fact is Bruce lee had a huge ego and would never admit he was in a close fight even though there's no shame in losing he was just very arrogant.

Fact is Bruce was very good best of his time? Maybe maybe not but certainly the most famous but he is overrated. Not in the sense that he wasnt any good because he was I'm not one of those who thinks he couldn't fight because he obviously could but he's overrated by people who say no one could beat him or he was untouchable that's rubbish everyone's beatable everyone can be hurt. That's why he trained so much because he knew people can beat him so he had to be as fit and strong and skilled as he could be. But his training really screwed him up more than it helped in my eyes he overdid it. He screwed his back up which affected him for the rest of his life. He was underweight when he died and drinking and taking drugs all to keep him relaxed due to his heavy training.

 

[wingchun100]

Fact is Bruce lee had a huge ego and would never admit he was in a close fight even though there's no shame in losing he was just very arrogant.

Fact is Bruce was very good best of his time? Maybe maybe not but certainly the most famous but he is overrated. Not in the sense that he wasnt any good because he was I'm not one of those who thinks he couldn't fight because he obviously could but he's overrated by people who say no one could beat him or he was untouchable that's rubbish everyone's beatable everyone can be hurt. That's why he trained so much because he knew people can beat him so he had to be as fit and strong and skilled as he could be. But his training really screwed him up more than it helped in my eyes he overdid it. He screwed his back up which affected him for the rest of his life. He was underweight when he died and drinking and taking drugs all to keep him relaxed due to his heavy training.

Sources?

I am not saying I am such a BL fan boy that I deny he could have done drugs, but where are your sources for this?

 

[Kickboxer101]

Sources?

I am not saying I am such a BL fan boy that I deny he could have done drugs, but where are your sources for this?

Not an online source but fighting spirit by Bruce Thomas it quotes a medical report that he had cannabis in his system when he died and an interview with bob wall where he eats hash cookies

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not an online source but fighting spirit by Bruce Thomas it quotes a medical report that he had cannabis in his system when he died and an interview with bob wall where he eats hash cookies

It is also talked about in "The Tao of Bruce Lee : a martial arts memoir" by Davis Miller., but the claim was it was something he got from Steve McQueen and took as something healthy to do since he viewed Steve McQueen as a person concerned about his health.

 

[Juany118]

From what I can tell, it all depends on whose side of the story you want to believe.

Even Dan Inosanto however will refer to Bruce as being "cocky" and regarding the fight in question a reporter actually went to the trouble of tracking down over 10 witnesses to the fight all of whom said the fight lasted a long time. I think much of the myth is based in what Bruce himself once said "hey man I was just trying to sell my school." Exaggeration was (maybe is) almost a staple of TCMA school advertising.

 

[Juany118]

We are talking about two guys with very little fight training going at it. A sloppy slap fest would be more likely than any sort of disciplined fight.

Same as when you get footballers boxing.

The first part seems a bit of an assumption. We know Bruce came to the US at such a young age that he likely didn't fight much however Wong was born in Hong Kong and had come to the US around the time Bruce's first book was published. Hong Long Martial Arts schools at the time took part not only in a "challenge" culture but also what amounts to a street gang culture (due to the chaos of people fleeing the Communists.) Am I saying Wong definitely had this experience? Nope but a Fiat statement saying he didn't seems like a BIG assumption.

 

[Kickboxer101]

The first part seems a bit of an assumption. We know Bruce came to the US at such a young age that he likely didn't fight much however Wong was born in Hong Kong and had come to the US around the time Bruce's first book was published. Hong Long Martial Arts schools at the time took part not only in a "challenge" culture but also what amounts to a street gang culture (due to the chaos of people fleeing the Communists.) Am I saying Wong definitely had this experience? Nope but a Fiat statement saying he didn't seems like a BIG assumption.

Bruce lee was sent to America /because/ he was fighting to much in the streets and getting in trouble with the police became of it

 

[Juany118]

Bruce lee was sent to America /because/ he was fighting to much in the streets and getting in trouble with the police became of it

But fighting as a kid when you didn't even finish learning a system seems to be more than a bit different than someone fully educated and experienced in that culture.

 

[Buka]

Bruce was born in Frisco then moved to Hong Kong, where his folks were originally from.
Moved back here to attend college.

 

[drop bear]

The first part seems a bit of an assumption. We know Bruce came to the US at such a young age that he likely didn't fight much however Wong was born in Hong Kong and had come to the US around the time Bruce's first book was published. Hong Long Martial Arts schools at the time took part not only in a "challenge" culture but also what amounts to a street gang culture (due to the chaos of people fleeing the Communists.) Am I saying Wong definitely had this experience? Nope but a Fiat statement saying he didn't seems like a BIG assumption.

Those two footballers have probably bashed a few dudes on the field and at the pub as well.

Thats why i chose those guys.

 

[Juany118]

Those two footballers have probably bashed a few dudes on the field and at the pub as well.

Thats why i chose those guys.

But there is a difference. First in HK it wasn't a matter of "bashing a few dudes" it was often, basically, straight up gang warfare and the culture of challenge matches was at the core of the "school system." Both of these dynamics were used by most, if not all schools (even Yip Man's), as advertisement of a sort for the schools. Then add in the full contact no protection events like the Taiwan–Hong Kong–Macau Open Chinese Kung Fu Competition (which actually had a documentary aired during it's inaugural year in 1957 and we are talking about a generation of TCMA practitioners who regularly fought in real fights.

Now is this the case today, not so much with the gang stuff in HK but the Challenge matches still happen on occasion. The point is you are making an assumption that is, in part, based on not understanding the Culture that existed in HK during the 1950s and 60s

 

[drop bear]

But there is a difference. First in HK it wasn't a matter of "bashing a few dudes" it was often, basically, straight up gang warfare and the culture of challenge matches was at the core of the "school system." Both of these dynamics were used by most, if not all schools (even Yip Man's), as advertisement of a sort for the schools. Then add in the full contact no protection events like the Taiwan–Hong Kong–Macau Open Chinese Kung Fu Competition (which actually had a documentary aired during it's inaugural year in 1957 and we are talking about a generation of TCMA practitioners who regularly fought in real fights.

Now is this the case today, not so much with the gang stuff in HK but the Challenge matches still happen on occasion. The point is you are making an assumption that is, in part, based on not understanding the Culture that existed in HK during the 1950s and 60s

So you are suggesting that these were more sophisticated affairs than say gang violence and challenge matches pretty much every where else.

 

[Juany118]

So you are suggesting that these were more sophisticated affairs than say gang violence and challenge matches pretty much every where else.

In a way yes. It's wasn't always gang warfare the way we see it today (gangs engaging in criminal activity and fighting to defend a business/tuff), it would be the students of rival martial arts schools getting into fights to defend the honor of their school/master. The challenge fights, not simply "let's fight punk" they were often well attended events to prove which school/martial art was superior.

On top of that when you are fighting for a school/system/Master, especially with the filial piety that was shown to the Master, what is the point of not using the system in which you are trained? Zero.

The CMA have a long history of legitimate pressure testing in Asia. In the West no so much but to take a Western context and make the assumption that applies to an Eastern one as well, that a bit patronizing.

 

[punisher73]

But there is a difference. First in HK it wasn't a matter of "bashing a few dudes" it was often, basically, straight up gang warfare and the culture of challenge matches was at the core of the "school system." Both of these dynamics were used by most, if not all schools (even Yip Man's), as advertisement of a sort for the schools. Then add in the full contact no protection events like the Taiwan–Hong Kong–Macau Open Chinese Kung Fu Competition (which actually had a documentary aired during it's inaugural year in 1957 and we are talking about a generation of TCMA practitioners who regularly fought in real fights.

Now is this the case today, not so much with the gang stuff in HK but the Challenge matches still happen on occasion. The point is you are making an assumption that is, in part, based on not understanding the Culture that existed in HK during the 1950s and 60s

Watch the video I posted. THOSE were the infamous "roof top fights" that BL was always quoted about taking place in. NOT what we picture our gang fights here.

 

[punisher73]

Sources?

I am not saying I am such a BL fan boy that I deny he could have done drugs, but where are your sources for this?

Autopsy shows that he had THC in his system. He was known to have eaten hash brownies to relax.

In the book "Unsettled Matters", the author (Linda Lee's husband at the time and MAist Tom Bleecker) had access to all of BL's notes etc. He goes into some detail that BL was also using steroids. Which at the time were legal, but again showing that BL would do anything to try and gain any edge he could.

 

[punisher73]

So you are suggesting that these were more sophisticated affairs than say gang violence and challenge matches pretty much every where else.

I'm with you on this one. I think those matches were greatly exagerated and stretched to how bad they were. Watching the video I posted from one of those matches, it looked very bad and looked exactly like a bunch of high school kids trying to jockey for positioning as to who is the alpha.

 

[Juany118]

Watch the video I posted. THOSE were the infamous "roof top fights" that BL was always quoted about taking place in. NOT what we picture our gang fights here.

I did, there are roof top fights but there were also running street fights on a frequent basis. The Chaos of refugees fleeing a government like Mao's Communists can bring that out in a populace sadly. My ex and current best friend was born in Hong Kong. Her father didn't study Martial Arts but he told me the stories of the Chaos, as did her Grand Father (he did study MAs though.)

I'll trust people who lived it. I think people often fail to actually learn, and thus appreciate, the history of Hong Kong, especially in that period. It was a chaotic and painful time for a great many. Filled with want, poverty and disenfranchisement... Which leads to street violence.

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