On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[isshinryuronin]

To get back to the reason for kata is to understand what it really is, and thus render many of the above posts irrelevant.

Karate was taught in secret 125-250 years ago, to hand picked students directly from the master. Thus, very little was written down regarding the techniques (and much of that was mostly lost during WWII). There were no open membership gyms, no "how to" books, no film or you tube. How, then, was the knowledge transmitted during this time to students to remember and practice? Kata was created.

Combat techniques, strikes, locks, throws, pressure point attacks, tactics...were incorporated into memorized series called kata, which served as volumes of instruction. They allowed a student to "self train" when away from his teacher. A style's whole repertoire of katas served as the "encyclopedia" of that style and could be passed on to the next generation.

Other fighting arts did not share this history, so had no need to create kata. They were "open source."

Just as a book doesn't really teach how to fight well, a kata doesn't either. It is basically a "book" of techniques. Teachers, sparring and practice are required to learn how to fight. Kata, though, can be a valuable source of fighting concepts and technique.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Anyway, brining this back.


I have a statement on the media you can access. If the media is made for a complete begginer to learn from as opposed to a refrence book to go along with formal study (i belive more of the latter exist) it can be useful to learn from. The only thing you would have to do is apply to a person to work out if you are doing it correctly or not. Nothing excludes the ability to contact the maker and ask for opinions on how you are doing it or sending them a video of it as well. As martial arts is a skill that you need to actually do to learn effectively, you cant soley pick it up by just reading or watching videos. DO NOT, take that as "you cant learn from a book", you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read. (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)

 

[Tez3]

you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read. (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)

That's good to know, I'm off to buy medical books always fancied being a surgeon and now I can learn to be one from books and videos alone. Yay.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

That's good to know, I'm off to buy medical books always fancied being a surgeon and now I can learn to be one from books and videos alone. Yay.

If you see the preface about skill variety and variety in the learning curve... Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.

 

[skribs]

Anyway, brining this back.


I have a statement on the media you can access. If the media is made for a complete begginer to learn from as opposed to a refrence book to go along with formal study (i belive more of the latter exist) it can be useful to learn from. The only thing you would have to do is apply to a person to work out if you are doing it correctly or not. Nothing excludes the ability to contact the maker and ask for opinions on how you are doing it or sending them a video of it as well. As martial arts is a skill that you need to actually do to learn effectively, you cant soley pick it up by just reading or watching videos. DO NOT, take that as "you cant learn from a book", you can learn from a book, you just need to apply what you have read. (book is denoting all media or any combination of.)

You're still not getting feedback on your technique, and you have no way of verifying if the other person is competent enough to be a reliable test of effectiveness.

Honestly, I have no idea how you still hold onto this notion. You do a lot of reading on martial arts. Have you not read articles about how live sparring is required to get your effectiveness up? Have you not read of the concept "iron sharpens iron"?

 

[dvcochran]

The logical approach should be:

First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.

Partner drill:

Solo drill:

Agree. However a person must do both perfect the drill.
From my experience, most people learn the individual components of a drill like the one in the video sans partner.
Then chain them together.
Then learn them with a live partner.
Then do them with resistance.

 

[dvcochran]

To get back to the reason for kata is to understand what it really is, and thus render many of the above posts irrelevant.

Karate was taught in secret 125-250 years ago, to hand picked students directly from the master. Thus, very little was written down regarding the techniques (and much of that was mostly lost during WWII). There were no open membership gyms, no "how to" books, no film or you tube. How, then, was the knowledge transmitted during this time to students to remember and practice? Kata was created.

Combat techniques, strikes, locks, throws, pressure point attacks, tactics...were incorporated into memorized series called kata, which served as volumes of instruction. They allowed a student to "self train" when away from his teacher. A style's whole repertoire of katas served as the "encyclopedia" of that style and could be passed on to the next generation.

Other fighting arts did not share this history, so had no need to create kata. They were "open source."

Just as a book doesn't really teach how to fight well, a kata doesn't either. It is basically a "book" of techniques. Teachers, sparring and practice are required to learn how to fight. Kata, though, can be a valuable source of fighting concepts and technique.

Very well said.

 

[Tez3]

Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.

First aid isn't surgery though. First aid should be simple, it's not surgery. We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.

 

[skribs]

Also for the sake of the point, there is a printed manual on first aid, which is both meant as a guide to people who dont know how to do anything and second as a refrence for people with certificates.

The level of first aid you can effectively learn from a manual is going to be the scrapes and boo-boos kind of first aid. You're not going to learn how to do life-saving measures without instruction. If someone is in a life-threatening situation, your first step should be to call 911 (or the equivalent in your country) and they will walk you through the proper diagnosis and immediate first-aid steps to do until qualified medical help arrives.

If we're going to compare martial arts to first aid, then what you're talking about is the equivalent of knowing how to use band-aids on an open wound and using ice to reduce swelling. You're not going to properly know how to set a broken bone, check for ligament damage, or assess a person who is experiencing an immediate medical emergency like choking, heart attack, stroke, or a large gushing wound. You might be able to recognize some signs and symptoms and know to call 911, but that's about it.

In fact, one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry right now is all of the self-diagnosis and self-treatment we have going on via the internet. Things like the anti-vax movement, people who will refuse medicine because they read on facebook that an herbal supplement will be better for you, or people who self-diagnose on Web-MD and make the doctor's job that much more difficult.

If you want to have a decent amount of ability in treating someone when they need help, there are first aid classes and CPR classes that will actually teach you how to recognize and treat various symptoms. These classes are important, because instead of just reading in a book and guessing that you understand it, they have tools that can teach you if you're doing it correctly.

Furthermore, if you want to actually be competent, it takes years of class and internships just to be qualified as a nurse. It takes probably 12-15 years of class, internship, residency, and fellowship to become a licensed physician.

So ask yourself. Do you want to be the kind of martial artist who knows how to do band-aids? You can get that from a manual. If you want to be able to do anything else, you need to go to class.

We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.

I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.

 

[Headhunter]

I think everything that needs to be said has been said. Let's just leave the op to his articles and YouTube videos and let him think he's doing martial arts. He's not going to listen to anyone

 

[Tez3]

I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.

You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them.
"Who can use a defibrillator?
You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."

Defibrillators

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them.
"Who can use a defibrillator?
You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."

Defibrillators

Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.

We've got a lot through the UK, in villages like ours, workplaces and public buildings. They don't always save lives but they are saving more lives every year. Well worth having.

 

[skribs]

You don't need training for public access defibrillators which is why we have them.
"Who can use a defibrillator?
You don’t need to be trained to use a defibrillator – anyone can use it. There are clear instructions on how to attach the defibrillator pads. It then assesses the heart rhythm and will only instruct you to deliver a shock if it’s needed. You cannot deliver a shock accidentally, the defibrillator will only allow you to shock if it is needed."

Defibrillators

In that case, you're still getting instruction during the use of the device. It's not like martial arts, where someone could say "he's going for a takedown, sprawl" while you're all alone in the middle of getting jumped.

 

[dvcochran]

I am really struggling to see you point on this. If/when I get hurt I will take whatever help I can get. Basic first aid really is not complicated. The way you grew up in my family it was more the norm.

 

[skribs]

I am really struggling to see you point on this. If/when I get hurt I will take whatever help I can get. Basic first aid really is not complicated. The way you grew up in my family it was more the norm.

My point is relating to the OP. If we're looking at the ability to provide medical help, "basic first aid" is the bottom floor of capability. If you're looking to train martial arts, and you want to be the equivalent of providing basic first aid to be your ceiling, you're not much of a martial artist.

 

[dvcochran]

I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.

 

[Tez3]

In that case, you're still getting instruction during the use of the device. It's not like martial arts, where someone could say "he's going for a takedown, sprawl" while you're all alone in the middle of getting jumped.

My point is relating to the OP. If we're looking at the ability to provide medical help, "basic first aid" is the bottom floor of capability. If you're looking to train martial arts, and you want to be the equivalent of providing basic first aid to be your ceiling, you're not much of a martial artist.

I think you've missed the point, I said you can learn basic first aid by reading a book but you could not become a surgeon without lengthy instruction.

I only elaborated on the defib thing because of this comment you made, it's not actually pertinent beyond the original point I made.

I would think you should have enough training to know whether or not it's right to send electric shocks through someone.

 

[drop bear]

I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.

It is different when it applies to you. So if say for example for self defense you would need a functional system grounded in application taught by an instructor who has a real depth of experience on the subject. Then so long as you are having fun that is the import part.

If you don't feel the need for instruction at all then it is doing a disservice to the whole validity of martial arts.

So same with first aid or defibrillator training. The results matter to the point of our personal standard.

 

[skribs]

I think you've missed the point, I said you can learn basic first aid by reading a book but you could not become a surgeon without lengthy instruction.

I only elaborated on the defib thing because of this comment you made, it's not actually pertinent beyond the original point I made.

But the person isn't trained enough to know. They just follow the advice on the device. If there's a device that will tell me when I'm supposed to use my techniques in the middle of a fight, I'd love to know about it.