On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[Flying Crane]

Ste

What white crane Knowledge could you share to benefit the the Kung Fu world

Nothing without context. It is a method that is built upon a foundation. When they foundation is properly understood, then the techniques work very well and you can become very creative with techniques, still with excellent results. When taken out of context, without the proper foundation, those techniques do not work. Kung fu is not something that can be pieced together from unconnected sources. Outside of the proper context, it does not work.

 

[skribs]

My reply was incomprehensible on purpose , why on Earth would I share intament secrets to my art on a random
On a random forum to a bunch of strangers,. Your probably cool, we may,. Be able to make awesome music, I will need a Rythm and bass player

Ste

What white crane Knowledge could you share to benefit the the Kung Fu world

So you don't want to share your knowledge, but you're asking for his knowledge?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Give me your cell #. I will call you

What do you plan to do after calling him?

 

[skribs]

Yeah,. Why don't you make up my history. Go ahead. Have fun

I didn't make anything up. I hit the quote button and let the site copy and paste what you wrote vertabim.

How would you feel , if I,m best friend s
With the forum owner,and I'm evaluate ing, the mods to decide who stays and goes

Brilliant move, pretending to be a moderator.

Give me your cell #. I will call you

Yes, I'm going to give my personal information to a random stranger on the internet that hates me.

 

[skribs]

. Would you prefer my #

Why would I want that?

 

[Cynik75]

Ok
Ok. I tend to forget I,m talking to a bunch of low iq morons who relentlessly train B's martial arts holding to it like a 5 year old not wanting to relenquish there pascifer. I am a Kung Fu founder, when my system is ready I will do "TRIAL" testing. Before I release it to the public,. When you create a prototype you test it before realease it to public .

OK. Till that moment I stay thinking you are delusional or liar. Maybe just a troll. But wish you the best with your "new kung fu system".
BTW: do you know there is no martial art/arts called "kung fu"? You can "kung fu" even with knitting.

 

[Cynik75]

Delusionsal liar, was the system you train created by a human being?

Are you talking to yourself?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

@frank raud

Cant quote the post specfically. But, to keep it breif as i am not having a argument about kata here. (anyone can start a thead on its pros and cons for the umpteeth time if they so wish)

Sport judo has basically erased it. And then they do it diffrently from other styles. It is obviously a generalised statement as the variences between them can be slight to great. I will also highlight me stating " SPORT" beforehand. I wasnt denoting all judo, only people who just do it for sport. But then as stated the other two examples dont do kata how its used in context anyway. And we can indeed argue that shadowboxing or what have you is kata or what have you, not a argument i wish to have here at all, so it will be left at that.

Edit: I wrote above before reading other posts in the matter. But to clarify, i had solo kata in my mind when writing it.

Watching someone else do something doesn't really count as experience.
HEMA never died out. The things found in the surviving written works had evolved as part of modern fencing, but being able to deconstruct and reverse engineer things made a big difference.
You're also making the unfounded assumption that these reconstructions are essentially correct. It's entirely possible that if Silver were alive, our efforts would result in a massive facepalm.

HEMA has died out in many ways, many styles of it have died out. and by that i mean the lingege hasnt survived from its origins. If any have, i will put them down to be a rariety. I dont consider modern sabre, epee or foil to be HEMA, nor do any of them cover longsword, polearm etc.


This issue is inherent in any reconstructive effort, you go into it with your experiences bias's etc. The more ifnormation you have on the subject the better the recontructive effort will be. As somone who is quite intrested in living history i do know this issue quite well, there can be a lot of gaps you need to fill with experience/assumption/presumption. And then if its merged into something modern, you as you stated need to deconstruct it, but you will have your modern bias to it.

the only standard you can apply is, if it works it is correct. As you cant pop back to 1600 and asking the fencing teacher, nor are you likely to be using a longsword in war or defending yourself anytime soon. There is also the conundrum of people doing HEMA for historical recontruction and preservation and for re enactment purposes, and ones who want to treat it like a martial art and think they should evolve and change some of the things done in it to things that work better for them.

Edit: That was quite rambley, hopefully a point was made there. And i also wrote that before reading the later replies.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

You are taking the idea that a huge bulk of self defence training is probably worthless and using that to justify self training.

Where I traditionally have not seen the justification in either.

Now that aside if you wanted to try it I am interested to see the results because as an experiment it would be kind of interesting.

So how will you test it to see if your idea works?

I still think the BJJ comp is the go. Here is a quick list of the moves you would need.
The 16 Most Important Techniques for the BJJ Beginner

I dont think its worthless. But if you pressure test at home, what makes it diffrent? Only the potentional lack of a instructor, and then we can argue until blue in the face if the person can pick up some skills at home from media and fill in the gaps while doing it. And then if said school doesnt do pressure testing, you dont know if anything works. The only logic i have is the saying of, "learn from others" and something about a fool doesnt, no point or need to start from scratch and you wont if you have access to the internet.


Someone really should do a study in this area. I cant access competions (and then as discussed before everyone in sport comeptions gets training beforehand, so not a fair test) and then i am not "untrained" so i dont fall in this catergory fully as well.

I would love to have somone basically take 100 people and do diffrent training solutions with them and find out who retains information the better and all that nonsense.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Why do folks continue to have the same circular, pointless discussion with the same OP? This has all been hashed out before. Nothing comes of it. A new thread like this ought to get the sound of crickets.

At least its in its own thread this time.

Also, in my defence, my most recent posts have been prefixed with "my ramblings on" or something to that effect.

 

[frank raud]

How exactly, has sport judo erased kata?

 

[frank raud]

If you don't want to consider shadowboxing as kata( a fair assessment, could go either way), please name Western martial arts that do have kata, otherwise pointing out wrestling and boxing is irrelevant, if no other Western art practices kata.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

If you don't want to consider shadowboxing as kata( a fair assessment, could go either way), please name Western martial arts that do have kata, otherwise pointing out wrestling and boxing is irrelevant, if no other Western art practices kata.

I fail to see the point? It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it. As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt. (one which we arent having here). Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european. I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.

 

[Headhunter]

I fail to see the point? It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it. As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt. (one which we arent having here). Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european. I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.

You don't have any kind of knowledge on the subject of martial arts. You're talking about katas like you know anything about it. You don't. Someone who goes and does only kata has more knowledge than you because at least they go and train and learn

 

[Flying Crane]

I have made many statements on kata. I dont belive you have read all of them, but to detail my view in greater detail and more accurately: The fighting value of kata is dubious at best and it factually has no fighting value on its own. The spirtual/fitness value can be argued on a case by case basis, but the former is down to the beholder. If you are not a spirtual person it would be useless. You can safely erase it and not loose any fighting effectiveness. (as has been proven by combat sports and martial arts that dont have kata in it)

I agree with your statement within the context of you, personally.

You have never learned kata. You do not understand it. Therefor for you, the practice of kata is worthless. I do agree with that.

Kata is not necessary as part of learning to fight. there are, obviously, many clear examples of folks who can fight, have learned to fight, have studied martial methods that do not include kata and yet can fight very well. There is no room to argue that.

kata that is poorly understood can also be a waste of time and effort. So for some other folks who practice kata, I would agree that it is useless and is a waste of time, as well.

some kata are, in my opinion, poorly designed. They are created by folks with a shallow understanding of their martial methods and the role that kata should play within the context of training. These people create their own kata, and for many of them, their creations are garbage. For these people and their students, the practice of kata is also worthless.

You do however, fail to understand that kata can be a valuable training tool, one of many training tools, one tool in the toolbox, for those who understand it. For them, it is a useful tool. The fact that kata is useless for you, in no way negates the fact that it is very useful for many other folks.

You can cut a log using a variety of tools. An axe does a good job, as long as you don't need a clean and straight edge. A hand saw can do a good job, can even give a good clean edge if you are skilled with it. A table saw does a good job too, as long as the depth of cut is large enough to handle the log. Even a knife can get the job done if you work at it long enough, and if the knife is big enough.

If you only know how to use a hand saw or an axe, that does not negate the fact that others can get the job done using the other tools I mentioned. If you don't understand how to use the tool, that is your shortcoming and your lack of education, and not anybody else's problem.

Now I have educated you on kata. From here on, you know better and you have no excuse to make statements based on ignorance, because you are no longer ignorant. If you do continue to make such statements, then you are a liar. I suggest you simply do not discuss kata at all. It is way way over your head.

 

[frank raud]

I fail to see the point? It is examples of arts that have erased it in comaprision with some that have kept it showing you can erase it without effecting the fighting ability of the persons in it. As far as i got, all western martial arts dont have kata in it, or its a argument if it is or isnt. (one which we arent having here). Western for sake of argument is political/cultural, so western european. I dont have a encyclopedic knowledge of everyone that existed though.

How can they have erased it if they didn't do it in the first place?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

all western martial arts dont have kata in it, ...

Without learning from a MA form, do you think an average person can figure out the side kick, spin back fist combo all by himself?

 

[drop bear]

Cant quote the post specfically. But, to keep it breif as i am not having a argument about kata here. (anyone can start a thead on its pros and cons for the umpteeth time if they so wish)

Just so you know.(And it took me a while to figure out) it isn't really Kata that is the pointless exercise. It is bunkai where it all falls apart.

And the reason for this is the thought process is backwards.

So in theory you would think if something works if fighting then you refine it by turning it in to a drill. Or elements of it in to a drill.

Boxing becomes shadow boxing. Shadow boxing beccomes skipping.

Where bunkai goes the other way. Where it essentially tries to turn skipping in to some sort of fighting move.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Boxing becomes shadow boxing. Shadow boxing beccomes skipping.

Where bunkai goes the other way. Where it essentially tries to turn skipping in to some sort of fighting move.

The logical approach should be:

First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.

Partner drill:

Solo drill:

 

[skribs]

The logical approach should be:

First there is a partner drill. When partner is not available, it turns into solo drill.

Partner drill:

Solo drill:

That is one path, but not the only path.