On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[Deleted member 39746]

Yeah, seriously. When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.

What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?

Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc. Skin you cant remove with just picking.

 

[Tez3]

Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc. Skin you cant remove with just picking

Three very different things there.
Bunions are a deformity which will get worse unless treated.

Callus and corns can be self treated, unless you are diabetic then you need someone to sort them for you. Cutting calluses makes them worse actually, they are there for a reason and if you cut them the body will just thicken the skin even more.

Dry skin can be treated with moisturisers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would agree, best to keep within the area and not branch out too much. As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.


My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people? Given those people probbly only did it the same way as you. No illusion somone who does basketball as their main source of income and job would be better at it than somone who just now and then "shoots hoops". Not discounting the proffesional players are universally tall and probbly would dwarf you.

Recalling back to how i learnt basketball in school, the teacher introduces rules when relivent (ie can only dribble while moving for a limited time when they introcue you to the dribble, tell you its non contact or what have you when you start doing games so fourth) and only showed you how it was done once. I dont know if they would have corrected you if you did it wrong or not though. thats how every sport was done. This is for children, and this goes from primary to secondary school.


As for injury, you can get injured doing anything, you can only mitgate it in some ways and in general common sense would prevail for that one. You could for all intents and purposes designated somone as a safety officer to basially live and breathe that. Like if we do bring up american football, there isnt much you can do to mitgate those injuries, same with rugby. (both get compartively high injury rates and serious injury rates compared to other sports) Those are probbly inherent in the sport and its rules. (hell at least in american football you get armour)

Addendum: As for injury as well, i would honesty prefer it if somone had a first aid certfiicate, everyone should have one of those anyway. Even if its just CPR and the recovery position.

What you develop in that scenario depends almost entirely upon what the people in the room know. They are all learning at the same time, so there’s nothing to prevent bad habits from developing. Likely playing against another casual group with just one good player (someone with better information and training), would show the whole group to be weak at significant areas. Why? Because that one player isn’t having to learn all parts of the game from scratch, and can bring some of that information to their team. Add a decent amateur coach to that team, and they likely overwhelm the self-trained group, entirely.

Essentially, the group that is self-trained is having to discover a bunch of things on their own, even if they are using videos and such. Those carry bits of information, but can't replace the knowledge of an experienced coach. So, if those folks just want to be able to play against each other, they'll have plenty of fun at it, and will do okay. Anything beyond that, they're likely to be badly outmatched by people with equal effort put in, backed by an experienced coach.

 

[skribs]

My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people?

If you learn martial arts on your own, that's all your martial arts will be good for. Is playing games with your friends. It's not going to win you competitions or protect you much in the streets.

Recalling back to how i learnt basketball in school, the teacher introduces rules when relivent (ie can only dribble while moving for a limited time when they introcue you to the dribble, tell you its non contact or what have you when you start doing games so fourth) and only showed you how it was done once. I dont know if they would have corrected you if you did it wrong or not though. thats how every sport was done. This is for children, and this goes from primary to secondary school.

Was this for gym class or for the actual sport itself? If it's just for gym class, my experience is PE teachers basically do enough that you can get on the court and play. If it's for the school's basketball team, then you had a bad coach. (This is of course assuming you didn't take 3 practices and quit).

A martial arts school is going to show you how to do things several times over. For the most part, we demonstrate everything before we expect the students to do it. I will demonstrate the front kick before I have the students kick in every class, so that they can follow my example. I remind them the important parts of the kick so they can pay attention to them. We don't actively correct students every class (because that can make students feel like they're not good enough) but we do give them advice on how to improve it.

You had a bad experience taking lessons in basketball. That doesn't mean everyone is going to be like that.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

What you develop in that scenario depends almost entirely upon what the people in the room know. They are all learning at the same time, so there’s nothing to prevent bad habits from developing. Likely playing against another casual group with just one good player (someone with better information and training), would show the whole group to be weak at significant areas. Why? Because that one player isn’t having to learn all parts of the game from scratch, and can bring some of that information to their team. Add a decent amateur coach to that team, and they likely overwhelm the self-trained group, entirely.

Essentially, the group that is self-trained is having to discover a bunch of things on their own, even if they are using videos and such. Those carry bits of information, but can't replace the knowledge of an experienced coach. So, if those folks just want to be able to play against each other, they'll have plenty of fun at it, and will do okay. Anything beyond that, they're likely to be badly outmatched by people with equal effort put in, backed by an experienced coach.

In hindsight, we probbly should not have used team sport anologies for this. But, for the last point, their skill level doesnt realy matter. if they arent trying to do it proffesionally its of no consiquence. If they want to compete proffesionally well, if they decided since school all the coaching etc would be provided especially if they get scooped up by a team earlier on.If not they would seek out such instruction. The base of information for a sport would be on average higher than not as people would literally practice doing said sport every day until they retire or decide to switch careers. Thats the issue with a sport analysis of this.


Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower? Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient? More than likely. It would be the comparision of something over nothing.

Bad habits also seems subjective and based on your goals. A boxing coach can only relay what is bad for the sport of boxing, so fourth.


I dont deny its more individalistic, but thats not good or bad. Its based soley on the individuals abilities.

 

[skribs]

Now to apply this to self defence where (for sake of argument) the average amount of information would be lower? Would coming in with a base of information and some practice, even if it only builds your atributes be suffcient? More than likely. It would be the comparision of something over nothing.

If your goal is to learn self-defense, and what you're learning isn't effective, then you're not going to learn self defense and are wasting your time. If your techniques aren't done right, then you're not going to be able to effectively use them in a fight. And you need more than a heavy bag to know when they're right or not.

Bad habits also seems subjective and based on your goals. A boxing coach can only relay what is bad for the sport of boxing, so fourth.

On the one hand, there are some universal truths to martial arts. There are also truths that apply within a given ruleset. A boxing coach might not know how to deal with kicks and grabs, but they do know how to punch. Their lessons on how to punch and how to protect your head don't get less true when you go into kickboxing or MMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

Dry skin, as in a bunon or callious etc. Skin you cant remove with just picking.

Ain’t no such thing.

 

[dvcochran]

There is in martial arts and particularly self defence.

Does your country have a regulatory agency who evaluates the standards/material of someone teaching MA and SD?

 

[frank raud]

@Rat ,

You haven't answered this question

How exactly, has sport judo erased kata?

Or this one, in regards to boxing and wrestling

How can they have erased it if they didn't do it in the first place?

 

[dvcochran]

Only disgusting people would cut dry skin with a knife. ugh.



What on earth is a 'pop up stand for first aid'?

You've totally missed all the points here. The defibs in the UK that are for public access don't need courses to use them, activate them ( you are given the code to access them when you phone 999) and they talk you through every bit of the way.

C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later?

I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Does your country have a regulatory agency who evaluates the standards/material of someone teaching MA and SD?

If you mean governemnt regulation, beyond the (recognised)sports, pretty much no. Especially not for self defence systems. But most schools tend to assoiate with a federation. A good rule of thumb would be, if its taught in schools as part of PE or a BTEC sport qual, it probbly has at some govenrment regulation in it as for what content is covered and should be covered or at least the govenrment has put some influence on it.

Im trying to think of a page to find the list of all the regulatory commisions the U.K govenrment recognises but im at a loss for where to find it. Oh thats probbly a better way to word it, the U.K doesnt recognise many federations for many sports and MA. (and in some cases only one is recognised and there could be several competitors to it)

I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?

And i meant a stand st johns or something like that sets up at events to teach people CPR/AED usage and other first aid things/advertise. A pop up stand meaning its not permently there and only for said event.


Addendum: Something like this list here: Olympic Sports | UK Sport Best i could come up with on short notice and with edit time running out. I dont recall that being the page i found ages ago on it, but it could have been revamped. That is at least a list of all the olympic sports recognised and the bodies that regulate them respectively for the U.K.

 

[Tez3]

C'mon; you have never popped a blister and snipped the skin off later?

I have never heard of a 'pop up' stand for first aid either. Maybe he/she means triage?

A blister isn't dry skin though, quite the opposite. I've not taken the skin off later because the way I was taught to deal with blisters it doesn't need to come off.

And i meant a stand st johns or something like that sets up at events to teach people CPR/AED usage and other first aid things/advertise. A pop up stand meaning its not permently there and only for said event.

Nope never seen one, St John's often are the first aid providers at sporting and other events etc but don't teach it outside courses.

Oh thats probbly a better way to word it, the U.K doesnt recognise many federations for many sports and MA. (and in some cases only one is recognised and there could be several competitors to it)

A lot of sports federations are recognised in the UK, the Rugby Union, the FA, FIFA and UEFA, ECB, BBBC, as well as a lot of other ones.

Regulation comes into self defence because you should to know the law in the UK on what is self defence before you teach it.

 

[dvcochran]

A blister isn't dry skin though, quite the opposite. I've not taken the skin off later because the way I was taught to deal with blisters it doesn't need to come off.

I did not believe it until I tried it but if you wait until the sun goes down to burst a blood blister it will not hurt.

It depends on the size of the blister as to whether I take the skin off or not. Small ones I do not worry about but bigger ones seem to heal quicker. Likely because you can get some ointment on it.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Nope never seen one, St John's often are the first aid providers at sporting and other events etc but don't teach it outside courses.

Specfially dont know if it was saint johns, but i have seen a pop up stand for teaching CPR and AED's. I can only presume they have gone elsewhere and its not restricted to being a one time thing for what ever orgnsation did it.

Regulation comes into self defence because you should to know the law in the UK on what is self defence before you teach it.

That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take. Unless the group is dubious for being a criminal orginisation or unlawful, then maybe they would be libale to some degree, but you will be 2 fold as you decided to affilate with said group that you have no freedom to affiliate with. And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school. Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.

this is in the same way a publisher wouldnt be responsible if you choked somone to death following a choke in a book.

And there are many sports that arent recognised in the U.K, the statement is not entirely wrong or right, its more down to what sport in question.

 

[skribs]

That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take. Unless the group is dubious for being a criminal orginisation or unlawful, then maybe they would be libale to some degree, but you will be 2 fold as you decided to affilate with said group that you have no freedom to affiliate with.

Is this an ideal or a codified law?

And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school. Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.

No. A lot of schools are purely for sport, and will tell you that up front.

this is in the same way a publisher wouldnt be responsible if you choked somone to death following a choke in a book.

Are you 100% sure about this? Because there's a reason why "don't try this at home" or "don't try this without the supervision of a professional instructor" gets put into a lot of videos and books.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And also, literally everyone or next to everyone puts self defence as one of the reasons/taught skills for their school. Be it a combat sport or a TMA or krav maga,, and legal lessons for what is and is not self defence seem to be scarce in them.

Every school that I've been to that has self-defense as a focus does go over what is/isn't legal for self defense in my state. Most are not too concerned with it, since the main goal is defending yourself, not the what comes after, but it's gone over and reminded occasionally.

The schools that I've trained in that don't advertise self-defense don't really go over the legal stuff unless someone brings it up, but I wouldn't expect them to.

 

[Tez3]

That would be dubious, as you are fundementally responsible for yourself and all action you take.

What would be dubious? I said you should know the law on self defence in this country before teaching self defence, I said nothing about joining any group or teaching the law, just knowing it so you don't go off telling people they can kick an unconscious person in the head.

 

[dvcochran]

Every school that I've been to that has self-defense as a focus does go over what is/isn't legal for self defense in my state. Most are not too concerned with it, since the main goal is defending yourself, not the what comes after, but it's gone over and reminded occasionally.

The schools that I've trained in that don't advertise self-defense don't really go over the legal stuff unless someone brings it up, but I wouldn't expect them to.

That sounds like a slippery verbal slope. I would have to get a sign up form out and read it but we have a legal blurb in the release consent section that is supposed to indemnify. It has proven to be pretty solid.
I would never try to come off trying to sound like a legal professional to a potential/current student. I am certain I would just screw it up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That sounds like a slippery verbal slope. I would have to get a sign up form out and read it but we have a legal blurb in the release consent section that is supposed to indemnify. It has proven to be pretty solid.
I would never try to come off trying to sound like a legal professional to a potential/current student. I am certain I would just screw it up.

It's never official legal things, in the sense that people are told how to interpret the law, or give actual advice. It's basic things like how different states have different laws, how to find the laws for new york, and like Tez said, if a dude's unconscious you probably don't need to soccer kick his head.

 

[dvcochran]

It's never official legal things, in the sense that people are told how to interpret the law, or give actual advice. It's basic things like how different states have different laws, how to find the laws for new york, and like Tez said, if a dude's unconscious you probably don't need to soccer kick his head.

Down here we just call that good old common sense.