On Self "Training" In Martial Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

I cannot follow that logic. If basic first aid is enough to get someone stable until the paramedics get there (the standard in the U.S.) that is enough. I don’t expect my instructor to be able to perform surgery.

It's an analogy. He's not suggesting people need more than basic first-aid.

 

[dvcochran]

It's an analogy. He's not suggesting people need more than basic first-aid.

I guess I read it differently. It seemed it was more like sniping at Tez.

 

[skribs]

I guess I read it differently. It seemed it was more like sniping at Tez.

No, she kinda got caught in the crossfire this time. I was more sniping at the idea that martial arts could be learned from a manual.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. But given you tube is such a better medium for instruction than a manual and the internet can provide feedback.

It would be an interesting experiment to try.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed. I've been through AED training (volunteer work with the local police), and largely it's a restatement of the instructions in the AED container and a walk-through of the AED's verbal instructions.

What I find interesting is how many AED's there are, and the variations between them. It's mostly a result of a continuum between: how much do the people using this need to be walked through, and how quickly can I go through the instructions? Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed, while others give you the bare minimum so you can slap the suckers on and start zapping.

 

[Tez3]

Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed,

That's the only type used in the UK, it takes you through every step and doesn't allow shocking by accident. They come from the British Heart foundation, you have to make a £600 donation and provide the cabinet for it. We have ours because we are in a rural area and the money was raised in memory of a local lady.
Apply for a public access defibrillator

 

[Deleted member 39746]

First aid isn't surgery though. First aid should be simple, it's not surgery. We have defibrillators on the walls of our village halls here which talk you through the use of them, designed to be simple to use, it doesn't need training. Surgery and martial arts do.

Never stated it was. The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt. If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery. To continue the medical analogy.

 

[Tez3]

ubequtiously

?

removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery.

who does that?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see. In addition pop up stands for first aid and the like also go through how to use them. If its a longer course and covers defibs, i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa. Personally speaking i would seek out courses that cover both.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

who does that?

Not surgeons.

 

[Tez3]

Not surgeons.

Only disgusting people would cut dry skin with a knife. ugh.

AED's have been added ubeqiously to first aid training as far as i can see. In addition pop up stands for first aid and the like also go through how to use them. If its a longer course and covers defibs, i belive good companies would teach you both AED and manual, if its not a bespoke course anyway where you only use AED's or vice versa. Personally speaking i would seek out courses that cover both.

What on earth is a 'pop up stand for first aid'?

You've totally missed all the points here. The defibs in the UK that are for public access don't need courses to use them, activate them ( you are given the code to access them when you phone 999) and they talk you through every bit of the way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. But given you tube is such a better medium for instruction than a manual and the internet can provide feedback.

It would be an interesting experiment to try.

It would, though I don't think I'd look to "the internet" in general for feedback. Folks with no technical experience would chime in, making it hard to find which folks to pay attention to. I've seen some instructors who tried distance training using videos in both directions, so some feedback from someone who ought to have the requisite technical knowledge. I never had a chance to play with any of thos students to see what the result was like.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I find interesting is how many AED's there are, and the variations between them. It's mostly a result of a continuum between: how much do the people using this need to be walked through, and how quickly can I go through the instructions? Some of them walk you through every single step, even ones you don't know you needed, while others give you the bare minimum so you can slap the suckers on and start zapping.

Yeah, and that was the point of the training we received, I think. I doubt all of the ones used in county buildings (which is what they were training us for) are the same, and they used a model that just gave the barest instructions. If you can use those properly, the others just give extra information.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Never stated it was. The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt. If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery. To continue the medical analogy.

I think a more apt analogy might be some other sport - there's too much difference between simple knowledge that requires minimal skill development (first aid), deep knowledge that requires extreme skill development to be used at all (brain surgery), and physical skills that can be learned and developed at a useful level with minimal knowledge though knowledge may help (basic martial arts).

So, let's look at training for basketball. You can learn to dribble and shoot entirely on your own. You could also learn the rules on your own. If you have a partner, you could even learn to shoot against a defender and maintain control from them when dribbling. However, you're only going to progress to a very basic level in most cases. If they have a deep flaw in their game, it will likely lead to a deep gap in your game in the respective area (if they are really bad at defending against a layup, you may develop a layup that any competent player can defend). And with just one person there, there're a lot of flaws you can get away with that just won't matter. Bring in a moderately good opponent, and you'd be in trouble. A coach joining your sessions would immediately be able to improve on your game.

And that's without even mentioning the inceased risk of injury in training martial arts improperly. For that, American football is probably a better analogy. In fact, I wish I'd started with that one.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think a more apt analogy might be some other sport - there's too much difference between simple knowledge that requires minimal skill development (first aid), deep knowledge that requires extreme skill development to be used at all (brain surgery), and physical skills that can be learned and developed at a useful level with minimal knowledge though knowledge may help (basic martial arts).

So, let's look at training for basketball. You can learn to dribble and shoot entirely on your own. You could also learn the rules on your own. If you have a partner, you could even learn to shoot against a defender and maintain control from them when dribbling. However, you're only going to progress to a very basic level in most cases. If they have a deep flaw in their game, it will likely lead to a deep gap in your game in the respective area (if they are really bad at defending against a layup, you may develop a layup that any competent player can defend). And with just one person there, there're a lot of flaws you can get away with that just won't matter. Bring in a moderately good opponent, and you'd be in trouble. A coach joining your sessions would immediately be able to improve on your game.

And that's without even mentioning the inceased risk of injury in training martial arts improperly. For that, American football is probably a better analogy. In fact, I wish I'd started with that one.

I would agree, best to keep within the area and not branch out too much. As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.


My counter for that would be, what if you grabbed enough people to be a team and practiced like that and had no intention to go proffesional, would the skills you devolope be suffcient for just friendly games either with your freinds or other people? Given those people probbly only did it the same way as you. No illusion somone who does basketball as their main source of income and job would be better at it than somone who just now and then "shoots hoops". Not discounting the proffesional players are universally tall and probbly would dwarf you.

Recalling back to how i learnt basketball in school, the teacher introduces rules when relivent (ie can only dribble while moving for a limited time when they introcue you to the dribble, tell you its non contact or what have you when you start doing games so fourth) and only showed you how it was done once. I dont know if they would have corrected you if you did it wrong or not though. thats how every sport was done. This is for children, and this goes from primary to secondary school.


As for injury, you can get injured doing anything, you can only mitgate it in some ways and in general common sense would prevail for that one. You could for all intents and purposes designated somone as a safety officer to basially live and breathe that. Like if we do bring up american football, there isnt much you can do to mitgate those injuries, same with rugby. (both get compartively high injury rates and serious injury rates compared to other sports) Those are probbly inherent in the sport and its rules. (hell at least in american football you get armour)

Addendum: As for injury as well, i would honesty prefer it if somone had a first aid certfiicate, everyone should have one of those anyway. Even if its just CPR and the recovery position.

 

[skribs]

Never stated it was. The point was, i wasnt citing skills that require the same amount of time and training etc as surgery, so comparing it to first aid would be more apt. If we are going to ubequtiously put all martial askills under having the same learning curve then removing dry skin with a knife is the same as brain surgery. To continue the medical analogy.

Martial arts do have a long learning curve, though. Anyone who's spent more than 3 months in a class would know this.

It would, though I don't think I'd look to "the internet" in general for feedback. Folks with no technical experience would chime in, making it hard to find which folks to pay attention to. I've seen some instructors who tried distance training using videos in both directions, so some feedback from someone who ought to have the requisite technical knowledge. I never had a chance to play with any of thos students to see what the result was like.

For striking arts, you can work on technique and footwork. It would be hard to simulate sparring, but if you have a sparring partner the remote instructor could critique you. However, this would basically be a private lesson or semi-private lesson, and you're relying on an instructor to teach you (which is what the thread seems to be trying to avoid). I think it would be nearly impossible to learn grappling this way. Without feeling it done properly on you, it can be hard to understand some of the nuances in grappling.

 

[Tez3]

As for medicine there is also a liability and regulatory aspect to cover as well.

There is in martial arts and particularly self defence.

 

[Flying Crane]

who does that?

Yeah, seriously. When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.

What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?

 

[skribs]

Yeah, seriously. When I get dry skin peeling off my feet from running around bare foot all the time, I just rip it off with my fingers.

What kind of pathetic SOB uses a knife for that?

If I have a hangnail and I rip it off, 50% of the time it bleeds and I make it much worse. Or I can cut it with nail clippers and don't have to worry about that. Same thing when I'm building calluses.

 

[Flying Crane]

If I have a hangnail and I rip it off, 50% of the time it bleeds and I make it much worse. Or I can cut it with nail clippers and don't have to worry about that. Same thing when I'm building calluses.

Oh sure. A hang nail is a different animal altogether.