On Power

[Deaf Smith]

Generating power. Pure raw power. How does one accomplish this? Here is my list, additions anyone?

A) Foundation. In order to hit hard, you must have a stable structure to project the power lease you 'give' and asorbe some of the power you ment to project. Either your kick or punch must be from a structure that is solid enough so there is no 'give'. So when you strike, the power will be transfered and not reflected back. This goes back to technique.

B) Speed (see below on THAT which we have already discussed.)

C) Physical strength. Yes the stronger you are, all other things being equal, the more power you can project. Well toned muscles are most certianly to be desired and trained for.

D) Weight shift. Moving your weight behind the technique to add more power by pure weight. This should be subtile. A small weight shift just a fraction of a second before the strike lands.

E) Striking the opponents center line. If your blow does not land where the opponent has to asborb the strike then power will be wasted. And wasted power is no power.

Speed, as in my earlier post is made up of:

a) Strength. Strength as in twitch and super twitch muscles. That comes from the right mix of weight training.

b) Technique. Not only finding a more efficient way to do, say a backfist or a sidekick, but also combining moves to speed up the technique, say skipping forward while chambering a kick or firing a backfist (just like the strait lead punch.) Or one-timing,that is blocking and punching at the same instant.

c) Relaxing before the strike (the muscles not the mind!)

d) Eliminating unnecessary movement in a given technique.

e) Mental. Mental not only in burning in the technique so well it's a reflex but combining moves mentaly so instead of '1,2,3,4' it becomes just '1' in ones mind. Add visualization to this so one sees the complete technique without any break in the flow.

f) seeing subtle clues in your opponent that tip their hand what they will do and when they will do it. This allows one to react sooner and smarter, giving the perception of speed.

g) Timing. In short, if you get in a better position, have a better angle and range, and you have better timing.

Deaf

 

[thardey]

I assume you're specifically talking about the transfer of power. So I would like to add one more -- hitting with the smallest possible striking point.

All of that force is distributed over the area of contact that the force is transferred through. The larger the surface area (say the entire bottom of your foot) the less efficiency. The smaller the surface area (a single point on your palm, a heel, all the way to the tip of a knife), the more efficient the transfer of power.

 

[Flying Crane]

C) Physical strength. Yes the stronger you are, all other things being equal, the more power you can project. Well toned muscles are most certianly to be desired and trained for.

not necessarily. Many Chinese systems use a relaxed, full body pivot/whipping method in which being relaxed thru out the complete technique is crucial, and yet the strike lands like a sledge hammer. Engaging muscular strength can actually hamper the technique and reduce the effect.

E) Striking the opponents center line. If your blow does not land where the opponent has to asborb the strike then power will be wasted. And wasted power is no power.

again, not necessarily. You can strike a mobile target such as the chin, and force the head and neck to pivot and twist, with tremendous and possibly deadly result. I guess in this case the technique of striking doesn't have to be as powerful, yet the effect is just as nasty, or more so. For the receiver, it is definitely perceived as being powerful.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Ok from thardey we can add focusing the power into the smallest pont we can (like the heal instead of the whole foot, or a knuckle or two instead of the whole hand.) That does increase the power.


And from Flying Crane I guess accuracy of the strike (and that will be part of my next thread on accruacy.)

Also about using special methods instead of mucle power. That will go into a categorey on technique to increase power.

Now how to define techniques that increase power?

Deaf

 

[TheOriginalName]

Might i suggest that technique is far more important than where you have listed it.....

The majority of techniques are based on the physiology - how the body moves and on effective transfer of energy.

If a punch\kick (or anything else for that matter) is not performed with correct technique then their is energy loss - which leads to a less effective punch\kick.

If you want true power get the technique correct - then you will be using your body and their body to the fullest potential.

Once technique is perfected than the other aspect of power, as listed, come into play.

This is simply my opinion....

 

[pstarr]

Pick up a copy of "Martial Mechanics" and let me know what you think. This subject is exactly what the book focuses on...

 

[Archangel M]

not necessarily. Many Chinese systems use a relaxed, full body pivot/whipping method in which being relaxed thru out the complete technique is crucial, and yet the strike lands like a sledge hammer. Engaging muscular strength can actually hamper the technique and reduce the effect.

All other aspects being equal though, stronger muscles will result in more power. No matter your mechanics, your muscles ALWAYS provide the movement. Some martial artists confuse the advantages of muscular strength with "muscling" through movements. Most of them are trying to rationalize their lack of strength or their lack of a strength component in their workouts IMHO.

 

[FearlessFreep]

All other aspects being equal though, stronger muscles will result in more power. No matter your mechanics, your muscles ALWAYS provide the movement. Some martial artists confuse the advantages of muscular strength with "muscling" through movements. Most of them are trying to rationalize their lack of strength or their lack of a strength component in their workouts IMHO.

F=MA
Muscle increases the M but so does fat.
Muscle used properly increases the A
Muscle used improperly decreases the A

Then there is the issue that rigidity increases the transfer of F into the target rather than back to the striker...and muscle can be made rigid where as fat cannot... but it pretty much starts with, or comes down to, F=MA

 

[Archangel M]

Fat wont provide movement. While mass (as in weight) will provide more power, it will also reduce speed/acceleration unless the muscles can propell it faster. But then if you reduce your mass then you can move what you have even quicker.

In the end you need to balance all your attributes. Ignoring strength training because "muscling" techniques is detrimental is shortsighted.

 

[Flying Crane]

Some martial artists confuse the advantages of muscular strength with "muscling" through movements.

good catch.

In the relaxed method I mentioned, it is true that being strong to provide a strong base for the execution of the technique does create a stronger technique. This is different from, as you pointed out, "muscling thru" the technique. In the relaxed method, muscling the technique will reduce its effects. But being strong while executing properly relaxed technique makes it very effective.

 

[FearlessFreep]

What I think Flying Crane is alluding to is that if you keep the weapon loose then it doesn't slow down.

In one approach, for a hand strike... you keep the arm loose as it goes out and then tighten at impact for maximum transfer of energy into the target.

What I think FC is saying is that the weapon is kept loose so that you don't get a tightening of the muscle and a potential slowdown of the weapon. In this approach... arm strength is not really important.

*However* - in what FC is saying, core strength and lower body strength then becomes very important in getting the speed going for the whip.

 

[Flying Crane]

What I think Flying Crane is alluding to is that if you keep the weapon loose then it doesn't slow down.

In one approach, for a hand strike... you keep the arm loose as it goes out and then tighten at impact for maximum transfer of energy into the target.

What I think FC is saying is that the weapon is kept loose so that you don't get a tightening of the muscle and a potential slowdown of the weapon. In this approach... arm strength is not really important.

*However* - in what FC is saying, core strength and lower body strength then becomes very important in getting the speed going for the whip.

well, the particular method I am thinking of is a little difficult to describe without being able to actually show it and demonstrate. But you are right about the core strength and base used to create the whipping power. But the same method also works for things like straight punches, not just looping and swinging strikes.

What often happens is that people (particularly newbies, or people who have trained in methods that rely heavily on muscular strength) can't let go of the idea of giving it maximum "oomph" thru the use of muscular strength. So they start out throwing the tech, but midway thru they directly engage the muscles of the arm and shoulder and start to muscle their way thru. True power for this method comes from the entire body, and the best way to maximize this is by keeping the arm and shoulder relaxed. When one engages the muscles of the arm and shoulder, thinking to add to the power, what has been done in effect is to separate the arm from the body. Now you have cut off the full power of the body, and have substituted the limited power of the shoulder and arm strength. If you are a physically strong person this can still be effective, but won't reach the full potential that the method has when the full body is engaged thru proper relaxation and reliance on the base and the core to generate the power.

The arm and the fist sort of become incidental. The work is done by the body, and the fist is just the end of the whip that makes physical contact with the target. Enough muscular strength must be exerted thru the shoulder and arm and fist to follow thru at the moment of impact, so that the strike isn't floppy and weak and the fist doesn't bounce back off the target or get injured. But the arm should not become the primary source of power.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Ok, FC, that makes sense and is actually how I was taught to punch in Tae Kwon Do

So I don't think it's an issue of to have or to not have muscle strength but just a matter of when and how the strength is deployed for maximum effect

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, FC, that makes sense and is actually how I was taught to punch in Tae Kwon Do

So I don't think it's an issue of to have or to not have muscle strength but just a matter of when and how the strength is deployed for maximum effect

Yeah, agree.

I think that a lot of people believe that the best way to punch hard is to develop big muscles in the arms and shoulders, and then rely on that type of brute force. Sure that can work, if you are strong enough to do it. I see it a lot particularly with underbelts, as they muscle their way thru everything. But the downside is that they just wear themselves out a lot faster.

You don't need arms like Popeye and you don't have to exert yourself like that, and you can still strike with a whole lot of authority if you understand how to generate power with the entire body, and that means understanding the proper way to relax and flow with the technique.

that's what motivated my initial comments on the OP.

Good discussion, I think it's helped illustrate the ideas we are tossing around.

 

[thardey]

That's what I was taught, too.

I look at it this way -- every time you reach forward with your hand, there are various sets of opposing muscles reacting and counter-reacting, to keep you hand going straight forward. If only your bicep contracted, and not your tricep, you would hit yourself in the face. Fortunately we learn this skill when we are infants, so we don't hit ourselves too hard.

The more you engage the muscles on one side of the movement, the more you have to engage the counter-muscles. This means that if you try to "muscle" your way through a punch, half of your muscles are resisting the movement, in order to control the aim. Since muscles only contract, you can't "push" a muscle forward, but have to pull on the side of the joint you want to move. As the opposing muscle contracts (subconsciously) the direction of force is back to you (since no muscles are "pushing" but are contracting), while you are trying to get the force to go away from you.

The more muscle you engage in the arm, the more you are fighting against yourself.

However, core strengths allows you "throw" a punch. There is a moment of force, then a moment of "coasting" which doesn't require much use of muscle, other than for fine-tuning the aim, then a tightening at the point of impact, when you want the force to recoil back to you, or you hyperextend. Plus that moment of movement/counter-movement creates a rigid arm which translated the power from your core to your hand, and on into your opponent.

It's like throwing a bullwhip. You start with an initial throw, (often using core body strength, actally), you let the whip uncoil on it's own and "float" towards the target, and just as the tip reaches the target, you snap back on the whip, causing the cracker (the tip) to deliver it's payload. The damage you can do with a shoestring is unreal.

 

[Archangel M]

Just to throw it into the mix...as going to the ground is a very real possibility, striking in the ground and pound will require a different approach. Whip like arm movements are not quite possible from the mount or on your back. While even in MMA, technique can trump strength/size, the strength requirement becomes quickly obvious.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Pick up a copy of "Martial Mechanics" and let me know what you think. This subject is exactly what the book focuses on...

I'll look at that pstarr. It's all part of Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas.

And that applies to far more than shooting!

Deaf

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

While there are many valuable things in other posts, my view is along the lines of Flying Crane's.

I will add this to the fray - Alignment.

Power comes from an efficient transfer of energy from the ground into the technique. Relaxed movement from feet to knees to hips to shoulders to elbows to hands is crucial. Appropriate body mechanics (alignment) will make the difference between the technique being like a wet noodle or a sledge hammer. Aligning and positioning yourself so you do not take on your attacker's momentum is critical to prevent injuring yourself with your strike.

I will disagree with the OP as far as "always strike to the opponent's center line". Always strike to that which is receptive (yin). As your opponent moves that which projects is yang and not receptive but that which retracts is yin. Upon rotation, striking to the retracting side is effective because the opponent can not brace for the impact and will recieve its full effect. At the midpoint of rotation, the opponent is in weightless state and is neither yin or yang but rather void. That is the best time to strike the opponent's center line. At that time you can also strike to the side that is about to project. You can also strike the projecting side just as its begins projecting.

On the other hand I will say, align your strikes to your own center.

_Don Flatt

 

[thardey]

While there are many valuable things in other posts, my view is along the lines of Flying Crane's.

I will add this to the fray - Alignment.

Power comes from an efficient transfer of energy from the ground into the technique. Relaxed movement from feet to knees to hips to shoulders to elbows to hands is crucial. Appropriate body mechanics (alignment) will make the difference between the technique being like a wet noodle or a sledge hammer. Aligning and positioning yourself so you do not take on your attacker's momentum is critical to prevent injuring yourself with your strike.

I will disagree with the OP as far as "always strike to the opponent's center line". Always strike to that which is receptive (yin). As your opponent moves that which projects is yang and not receptive but that which retracts is yin. Upon rotation, striking to the retracting side is effective because the opponent can not brace for the impact and will recieve its full effect. At the midpoint of rotation, the opponent is in weightless state and is neither yin or yang but rather void. That is the best time to strike the opponent's center line. At that time you can also strike to the side that is about to project. You can also strike the projecting side just as its begins projecting.

On the other hand I will say, align your strikes to your own center.

_Don Flatt

The bolded part is the most important, IMHO. For Maximum transfer of power, that's where you'll get the most for your buck.

 

[jks9199]

Aprorpos of nothing... I think I'll bump this thread. And maybe a couple others...