On Physical Challenges

[elder999]

Whoever Ballen was talking about. I don't know. I am just saying that person was not ready in his teacher's eyes. He can either go where it is easier to get rank, or deal with it. Anger is one way, I suppose, but it is dealing with it. Ha Ha.

I gotta disagree: "anger" is, by definition, not dealing with it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I gotta disagree: "anger" is, by definition, not dealing with it.

I didn't say, "Well"

 

[elder999]

I didn't say, "Well"

And I should rephrase myself: anger might be an appropriate reaction.

Being angry is, by definition, not dealing with it.

 

[elder999]

Ah, I've been away for sometime and logging back onto MA to see someone putting the old Ninjitsu "telephone across the temple" technique to good use, makes me realise what I have been missing. The hog-tying with the cord is a nice addition!
Peace

And, interestingly-I tell this story to BJJ and MMA people, and they are flabbergasted-some are even appalled that a "challenge" was answered in such an "unsporting" fashion. The facts, though? It was 29 years ago. My 2 year old son was there, and that man was crazy and alot of crazy **** had gone on around martial arts instructors in Westchester county at that time-a guy I knew down county had been murdered in his dojang....so yeah, I whopped him upside the head with the phone-twice- and tied him up while someone else called the cops.

Today, I'd just pull out the "Challenge release form" I keep in my desk with the "Open mat quit claim." Since moving to New Mexico in '94 and starting to teach there in '96, I've been "challenged" three times, but only one guy made it past the "release form" without getting up and going back wherever they came from....:lfao:

 

[hoshin1600]

I liked Steven Seagal from when I first saw him on the Mike Douglas show up until I was training with his first aikido teacher....well one night at the bar and I few drinks in, his name was brought up to sensei. Let's just say I know more about him now than I care to and I don't hold a high personal opinion of him.. but he does know his stuff when it comes to the art.

 

[drop bear]

Sport fighting for fun friendly competition is one thing but picking a fight with somebody because of something they said is something else. As Jason Frank who is best known for playing Tommy in Power Rangers but in real life is a well accomplished martial artist put it, he trains in martial arts to develop his mind and feel good about himself not so he can win in fights, and that if you train in martial arts to beat up other people then you'll never be a true martial artist. If martial arts was all about beating people up than why is there a rule here against making challenges? As for Steven Seagal being challenged by the Dirty Dozen, he might've brought it upon himself, he had been saying negative things about Chuck Norris and Bruce Lee and he was saying stuff about Bruce Lee behind his back since Bruce Lee was dead, but there were people saying that the Dirty Dozen were going about it the wrong way.

Part of what I am saying is that while you shouldn't pick a fight over something that somebody says, you also shouldn't say stuff that would want to cause somebody to pick a fight with you. According to some people the Dirty Dozen went about it the wrong way but Steven Seagal should've definitely not said the stuff he said. As martial artists we're supposed to be kind, courteous, and nice. That being said we shouldn't say anything here that would offend anybody. Signing up for a sport fighting event and testing yourself against other fighters is one thing but saying stuff to pick fights and picking fights with people because you want to prove how tough you are is something we shouldn't do.

OK but what if they have taken their mouth too far. There comes a time when I believe it is ethical to bust a man in the chops for his actions. I believe there comes a point where you are reasonably allowed to draw a line in the sand. Where you say stop and will stop them otherwise.

That line and your actions should be considered and reasonable. You can't let that push be so bad you do something destructive to yourself or others.

People have let what can be described as bullying go to the point they kill themselves. I think nipping that sort of attack in the bud might save a not of grief down the road.

 

[drop bear]

I will just come out and say, my teacher is big into making or at least helping people take on that perception. This is a case of me not knowing what the **** you guys are talking about, but I accept that there are other teachers of martial arts teaching what have you; so, I will let it go.

It is nuanced. Like any treatment for mental issues. And like any nuanced discussion people will hammer home their own point because in theory they are right and wrong at the same time.

So it works outright some of the time. It helps some of the time and it doesn't work some of the time.

It is called the rule of thirds.
Rule of Thirds : Schizophrenia Forum - Psych forums

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/articles/debating-one-third-rule

 

[Transk53]

It is nuanced. Like any treatment for mental issues. And like any nuanced discussion people will hammer home their own point because in theory they are right and wrong at the same time.

So it works outright some of the time. It helps some of the time and it doesn't work some of the time.

It is called the rule of thirds.
Rule of Thirds : Schizophrenia Forum - Psych forums

Debating the One-third Rule | Psychiatric Times

Interesting theory there!

 

[Buka]

I believe training in Martial Arts can help, can impact, can influence, can change anybody's life, young or old. Does it always - obviously not.
But the changes in those that it does can be huge. Doesn't matter if they're an adult or a kid.

Martial Arts has changed and influenced my life, and every aspect of my life, more than any other thing I've been even remotely associated with.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As I've noted elsewhere, martial arts practice doesn't automatically change your life or make you into a better person. It's a tool. If you choose to do the hard work to use that tool as a vehicle for self-transformation and you choose to aim that self-transformation in a positive direction, then it can produce great results. If not ... don't expect too much.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I believe training in Martial Arts can help, can impact, can influence, can change anybody's life, young or old. Does it always - obviously not.
But the changes in those that it does can be huge. Doesn't matter if they're an adult or a kid.

Martial Arts has changed and influenced my life, and every aspect of my life, more than any other thing I've been even remotely associated with.

If nothing else, it teaches us some manners to better mask our iniquitous selves.

 

[Transk53]

If nothing else, it teaches us some manners to better mask our iniquitous selves.

Great reply!

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK but what if they have taken their mouth too far. There comes a time when I believe it is ethical to bust a man in the chops for his actions. I believe there comes a point where you are reasonably allowed to draw a line in the sand. Where you say stop and will stop them otherwise.

That line and your actions should be considered and reasonable. You can't let that push be so bad you do something destructive to yourself or others.

People have let what can be described as bullying go to the point they kill themselves. I think nipping that sort of attack in the bud might save a not of grief down the road.

Words do not justify a physical response. Say whatever you want. Until you give me reason to believe that you're going to actually do something other than smacktalk. And then I'll respond to what you do, not what you say.

 

[Buka]

Words do not justify a physical response. Say whatever you want. Until you give me reason to believe that you're going to actually do something other than smacktalk. And then I'll respond to what you do, not what you say.

For the most part, yes. But words, or what somebody says face to face to another, is covered in law. "Fighting words", "reasonable man", "threats" etc, etc.

As a former DT instructor, I'll tell you DT instructors get in a whole lot more trouble for what they say than what they do or teach.

Bottom line - I agree with you. Just saying.

 

[elder999]

Words do not justify a physical response. Say whatever you want. Until you give me reason to believe that you're going to actually do something other than smacktalk. And then I'll respond to what you do, not what you say.

Except, of course, that threats are words.

A man raises his hands up, and says something like, I'm going to kill you, and he's put me in a situation where I can say that I was in fear for my life.

Even moreso if that hand has a weapon in it. I might even be obligated to take action, if there are others about who are subject to the threat, like family....

 

[Dirty Dog]

Except, of course, that threats are words.

A man raises his hands up, and says something like, I'm going to kill you, and he's put me in a situation where I can say that I was in fear for my life.

Even moreso if that hand has a weapon in it. I might even be obligated to take action, if there are others about who are subject to the threat, like family....

I've highlighted the key portion. Say what you like. I don't really care. But you added in a physical component that changes it from words to a direct, real and immediate physical threat. You're (by your own statement) responding to the action, not the words.

 

[elder999]

I've highlighted the key portion. Say what you like. I don't really care. But you added in a physical component that changes it from words to a direct, real and immediate physical threat. You're (by your own statement) responding to the action, not the words.

Legally, in most jurisdictions in the U.S., a verbal threat that is perceived as credible, and threatening imminent physical harm can be responded to physically, and it constitutes self-defense. The key, of course, is "credible threat of imminent physical harm." I added the gesture because, well, we're using words here, mostly.

In the end, the legal standard is "reasonable fear of harm." Verbal threats can be responded to legally-sometimes preemption is the correct course of action...

 

[Transk53]

Legally, in most jurisdictions in the U.S., a verbal threat that is perceived as credible, and threatening imminent physical harm can be responded to physically, and it constitutes self-defense. The key, of course, is "credible threat of imminent physical harm." I added the gesture because, well, we're using words here, mostly.

In the end, the legal standard is "reasonable fear of harm." Verbal threats can be responded to legally-sometimes preemption is the correct course of action...

If a person closes down the space to be in the violation zone, or whatever it is called, and get that close, you can pre-empt. But then it have to constitute a big threat. Over here at least, but probably not get away with it if the warnings are not issued.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Legally, in most jurisdictions in the U.S., a verbal threat that is perceived as credible, and threatening imminent physical harm can be responded to physically, and it constitutes self-defense. The key, of course, is "credible threat of imminent physical harm." I added the gesture because, well, we're using words here, mostly.

In the end, the legal standard is "reasonable fear of harm." Verbal threats can be responded to legally-sometimes preemption is the correct course of action...

I don't think I said anything about the law.

Words do not justify a physical response. Say whatever you want. Until you give me reason to believe that you're going to actually do something other than smacktalk. And then I'll respond to what you do, not what you say.

Nope. Nothing in there about the law. But from what you've said, the law agrees with me. There is no physical response to words. A physical response is justified only when there is reason to believe that the person is going to do something other than talk.

So what is it, exactly, that you're disagreeing with? I'm pretty sure you're not saying that you think it's ok to smack someone for words alone, when you have no reason to think they're going to do anything other than talk.

 

[Transk53]

People have let what can be described as bullying go to the point they kill themselves. I think nipping that sort of attack in the bud might save a not of grief down the road.

I was lucky, with a few genetic fundamentals, I woke up quite early and started boring through that mental block. Sadly a huge amount do not. Those that go onto adulthood find it even harder. I have done some voluntary work in the past with various and differing duties and seen what mental carnage can do.

OK but what if they have taken their mouth too far. There comes a time when I believe it is ethical to bust a man in the chops for his actions. I believe there comes a point where you are reasonably allowed to draw a line in the sand. Where you say stop and will stop them otherwise.

I obviously cannot disagree with this however ignorant to some.

That line and your actions should be considered and reasonable. You can't let that push be so bad you do something destructive to yourself or others.

Agreed. That very much echoes the contradiction of what bullying is. No I did not beat the crap out of someone to see that, one day I just did not need to, because it all started in the home. I will defend myself and I do not take threats as being threats, just something to amuse myself by. The key to understand the bully is not proper violence, just making them the morons they are. Hey just a little bit of my personal belief system, not anything to take seriously.