omg! a 4 year in training 3rd dan came in yesterday...

[puunui]

Whenever the teacher deems it appropriate.

But what if the teacher deems it appropriate to promote a student to 1st Dan after one year? I think the idea of similar rank standards for different arts is impossible. Teachers are individuals who have different ideas of what rank represents. Some think it is nothing, others everything. I forget the teacher's name but I seem to remember the Isshinryu founder promoting several of his American marine students to 9th and/or 10th Dan after a couple few years of training.

I view seasoning time as particularly important with shodan. The color black should be a real barrier in my opinion as lay people have no conception of dan levels. Make sure the student is up to snuff before awarding them that crucial 1st dan.

Why is 1st Dan crucial? After all it is the lowest rung on a system that goes up to 9 or 10. Why put an extreme standard on that?

As for the relation between competition and dan ranking, I don't necessarily believe there was originally a correlation, at least in karate. I know about the game of go and how Kano came up with a similar system for judo. But in Shotokan and Shito-ryu karate, when dan rankings first became implemented there was no tournament competition in kumite nor kata. This was added later.

I will say that Funakoshi Sensei respected Kano Sensei to the point where he would bow whenever walking past the Kodokan. And according to the original students of Funakoshi Sensei in Japan, sparring was something that was done almost from the start of Funakoshi Sensei's move to Japan. Tournament competition was added later because Karate was in its infancy in Japan and it took time to adapt Karate to a competitive activity. But doesn't necessarily mean that the idea wasn't always there. As for Shito-ryu, Mabuni Sensei was very interested in competition. In fact, the picture in my mind of him is wearing chest guards and other sparring gear. It was his influence through Dr. YOON Kwe Byung that influenced Taekwondo adoption of the same equipment.

Even today, Taekwondo and Karate utilize the belt ranking system to separate competitors of different levels. You don't see for example, green belts competing against black belts normally at karate or taekwondo tournaments. I'm sure you yourself competed in tournaments against similarly ranked opponents. In fact, people get mad when other schools sandbag and allow their students to compete in divisions lower than their actual rank.

 

[dancingalone]

But what if the teacher deems it appropriate to promote a student to 1st Dan after one year? I think the idea of similar rank standards for different arts is impossible. Teachers are individuals who have different ideas of what rank represents. Some think it is nothing, others everything. I forget the teacher's name but I seem to remember the Isshinryu founder promoting several of his American marine students to 9th and/or 10th Dan after a couple few years of training.

Teachers willing to do that obviously face backlash which may or may not be an issue to them. It's Shimabuku, Tatsuo you are thinking of. He gave high ranks to his American students who were leaving Okinawa and told them to wear it when they were ready which presumably would have been in a matter of years. Of course as soon as they landed on US soil, they promptly took on the new ranks. I respect Isshinryu as a martial art, but there's no question it has a reputation of inflated ranks among karate styles.

I myself would like to see the length of time for TKD BB rank bumped up to an average of 4-5 years. I believe this actually enhances the reputation of the art and I can think of a few other systems that follow a similar 'difficult' progression path.

Why is 1st Dan crucial? After all it is the lowest rung on a system that goes up to 9 or 10. Why put an extreme standard on that?

I explained this above. It's more or less for the lay people who are not aware of dan levels. They think, perhaps rightfully so, that a black belt is an expert of sorts. And it's quite jarring and disillusioning to see chodans and eedans who perhaps have physical skills that would be more appropriate for a colored belt. This again feeds into the public reputation issue of TKD and other closely related martial arts which you may or may not be concerned about.

I will say that Funakoshi Sensei respected Kano Sensei to the point where he would bow whenever walking past the Kodokan. And according to the original students of Funakoshi Sensei in Japan, sparring was something that was done almost from the start of Funakoshi Sensei's move to Japan.

I understand that Funakoshi, Gichin actually opposed jiyu kumite. Free sparring did NOT happen when the elder Funakoshi was holding class. This has been stated in various interviews with people like Nakayama, Matayoshi. Funakoshi, Gigo, on the other hand, was a proponent of the practice, and free sparring could very well have been a staple in his classes. Certainly tournaments and even inter-university club matches did not become commonplace until after the elder Funakoshi had passed.

Tournament competition was added later because Karate was in its infancy in Japan and it took time to adapt Karate to a competitive activity. But doesn't necessarily mean that the idea wasn't always there. As for Shito-ryu, Mabuni Sensei was very interested in competition. In fact, the picture in my mind of him is wearing chest guards and other sparring gear. It was his influence through Dr. YOON Kwe Byung that influenced Taekwondo adoption of the same equipment.

You are right about Mabuni adapting kendo equipment for sparring. I actually thought about that when I typed my post above, but I believe the point still holds about tournaments and competition. Shito-ryu involvement in tournaments actually post date Shotokan's creation of that 'arena', although to be sure, they free sparred privately in their classes.

Even today, Taekwondo and Karate utilize the belt ranking system to separate competitors of different levels. You don't see for example, green belts competing against black belts normally at karate or taekwondo tournaments. I'm sure you yourself competed in tournaments against similarly ranked opponents. In fact, people get mad when other schools sandbag and allow their students to compete in divisions lower than their actual rank.

You are right, but the point I made about competition and karate was about the early days only. I definitely think a valid argument could be made that 'traditionally' Okinawan karate does not compete at all.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As for the relation between competition and dan ranking, I don't necessarily believe there was originally a correlation, at least in karate. I know about the game of go and how Kano came up with a similar system for judo. But in Shotokan and Shito-ryu karate, when dan rankings first became implemented there was no tournament competition in kumite nor kata. This was added later. And certain Okinawan styles like Goju-ryu resisted the competition trend for much longer, despite also adopting the dan system after the death of their founder.

I won't speak for karate, though so far as I know, karate in general predates the use of the kyu/dan system (I believe that Shotokan was the first to use it), but the kyu/dan system and the colored belts were intended entirely for competition bracketing when kano introduced them.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I won't speak for karate, though so far as I know, karate in general predates the use of the kyu/dan system (I believe that Shotokan was the first to use it), but the kyu/dan system and the colored belts were intended entirely for competition bracketing when kano introduced them.

Yes, Te and later karate were firmly established in the Ryukyu islands and Japan before the dan system was transplanted into it by Funakoshi, Gichin back in the 1920s, when he granted the first black belts to several of his students, including Ohtsuka, Hironori of Wado-ryu fame. Ironically, it's not clear whether Funakoshi himself considered himself a dan holder from the onset, although he later used a 5th dan on record. Much of the motivation for adding dan ranks to karate came from the behest of the Butoku-kai, a Japanese sanctioning body of martial arts.

Mabuni, Kenwa of Shito-ryu followed suit relatively quickly. Meanwhile, Miyagi, Chojun of Goju-ryu resisted the practice during his lifetime even though he was later named Renshi and the head of the Okinawan branch of the Butoku-kai. Miyagi is said to have become very angry at his students when a few of them asked him to award them dan levels. For the record, Miyagi, Chojun did not believe in free sparring or tournaments either.

In this like with much of karate, you have to look at the whole splintered picture of founders and their styles to get an accurate picture of what 'karate' was doing at the time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Shouldn't the real learning start from day 1? This is not meant as a personal reproach towards anyone, but it seems a little patronizing to say real learning starts at chodan/shodan, rather discounting the color belt learning period. I actually think what happens at white-green belt is much more pivotal to one's ma career than 1st dan.

Everyone looks at it differently I suppose, but I think that real learning starts from day one whether or not the instructor feels that it does.

And absolutely I agree with you that white to green is a very important time period for the student. Usually, by green belt, any bad habits that have not been dealt with will ingrained and will then take twice as long or more to train out. It is also the time period where the student/teacher relationship is firmly established, as well as relationships between a student and seniors.

I think it is more accurate to say that by black belt, the student has learned how to actively learn.

As for ranks, I view ranks in a way akin to titles in the trades.

I view colored belt grades as apprentice period. By the end of the colored belts, the student has learned the essential system and is proficient in the art. Not expert, exceptional, or masterful, simply proficient. Proficient means that they can execute techniques correctly, spar within the system's sparring rules, and know the basic mindset of the system.

First through third or fourth dan I have always viewed as a journeyman period. The practitioner is now making the system his or her own, so to speak. At this point, they can start to figure out things for themselves and develop their own style within the system.

Fourth or fifth and up is the master period. By now, the practitioner has internalized the system, made it their own, and understands the art beyond merely the system level. Also, it is at this point that the practitioner usually is considered ready to take on their own students and to begin passing the art along to others.

Frankly, I'm unconcerned with the specific amount of time in colored belts. Some people will become proficient in less than a year and others will take much longer due to differences in age, learning style, athletic ability, amount of time spent in practice outside of class, quanitity of classes attended, and any number of combinations of these.

Once they are given the black belt, however, they really should be proficient. Most organizations have requirements for time in grade and the arts usually have an average regardless of organization (if any), and most schools stick with these, so time between dan grades is, to a certain extent, a decision that is usually made for you.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

I myself would like to see the length of time for TKD BB rank bumped up to an average of 4-5 years. I believe this actually enhances the reputation of the art and I can think of a few other systems that follow a similar 'difficult' progression path.

I don't know about 4-5 years, but I do believe that most dojang in the United States and probably in other international countries take longer than the standard one year it takes to achieve 1st Poom/Dan in Korea. I think it is for a combination of reasons, not the least of which being financial.

It's more or less for the lay people who are not aware of dan levels. They think, perhaps rightfully so, that a black belt is an expert of sorts. And it's quite jarring and disillusioning to see chodans and eedans who perhaps have physical skills that would be more appropriate for a colored belt. This again feeds into the public reputation issue of TKD and other closely related martial arts which you may or may not be concerned about.

I disagree that a 1st Dan is an expert. I also disagree that we should change our curriculum or what we do because of the perception of lay people. If that were the case, then Taekwondo dojang would still be labeled Korean Karate schools. I think a better approach would be to educate the public that 1st Dan is the lowest rung on a scale that goes to 9 or 10, that it is a level anyone can achieve, just like a high school diploma.

I understand that Funakoshi, Gichin actually opposed jiyu kumite. Free sparring did NOT happen when the elder Funakoshi was holding class. This has been stated in various interviews with people like Nakayama, Matayoshi.

Funakoshi Sensei writes about free sparring in his autobiography, Karate-Do My Way of Life. Looking briefly, I found two entries about free sparring: One in the section karate for everyone, states: "Of course, as one progresses in the art, an adversay will be essential in order to practice sparring (kumite) and free sparring (jyu kumite), but a real adversary is not necessary. Another in the section "Spirit of the Game", referencing Okinawan tug of war, states this: "What I learned from observing these tugs of war is that the team that is intent only on winning will usually fail to do so, while the team that enters the contest in order to enjoy the sport without worrying too much about winning or losing will frequently emerge victorious. The observation holds true for a karate bout as for a tug of war."

You are right, but the point I made about competition and karate was about the early days only. I definitely think a valid argument could be made that 'traditionally' Okinawan karate does not compete at all.

Traditionally, Okinawan karate did not have dan rank either, so argument exists that there is no need for dan ranks if the focus of the Karate experience is for traditional reasons, rather than modern or competitive ones.

 

[dancingalone]

As for ranks, I view ranks in a way akin to titles in the trades.

I view colored belt grades as apprentice period. By the end of the colored belts, the student has learned the essential system and is proficient in the art. Not expert, exceptional, or masterful, simply proficient. Proficient means that they can execute techniques correctly, spar within the system's sparring rules, and know the basic mindset of the system.

First through third or fourth dan I have always viewed as a journeyman period. The practitioner is now making the system his or her own, so to speak. At this point, they can start to figure out things for themselves and develop their own style within the system.

Fourth or fifth and up is the master period. By now, the practitioner has internalized the system, made it their own, and understands the art beyond merely the system level. Also, it is at this point that the practitioner usually is considered ready to take on their own students and to begin passing the art along to others.

I rather like this comparison. I'm somewhat interested in carpentry and furniture-making, and I consider the title of journeyman to be no insult at all. In fact, I'm rather amazed by the quality of work journeyman craftsmen can often turn out.

Frankly, I'm unconcerned with the specific amount of time in colored belts. Some people will become proficient in less than a year and others will take much longer due to differences in age, learning style, athletic ability, amount of time spent in practice outside of class, quanitity of classes attended, and any number of combinations of these.

Once they are given the black belt, however, they really should be proficient. Most organizations have requirements for time in grade and the arts usually have an average regardless of organization (if any), and most schools stick with these, so time between dan grades is, to a certain extent, a decision that is usually made for you.

I agree for the most part. I've never run into a Chuck Norris-type who could learn everything I think a BB should know in < 4-5 years, but if he exists, more power to him. He would be the rare exception rather than the rule.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree for the most part. I've never run into a Chuck Norris-type who could learn everything I think a BB should know in < 4-5 years, but if he exists, more power to him. He would be the rare exception rather than the rule.

I think that a lot depends on the art and on where the art is being taught. Glenn mentioned BB in one to two years in Korea being the average, and he is not the only one that I have heard say that. But it is also the Korean national sport and is probably part of their physical educaion in school.

In the US, football is huge and is played in the US by every boy at some point in time, even if only in pickup games around the neighborhood. Even I can play football, and though I never tried out, I played with friends, sometimes daily, during the summer as a kid. Had I tried out in high school and managed to make the team I would probably have become a proficient player in less than a year. Not due to any great tallent on my part, but because it is 'what boys in America do' on a summer afternoon. That or baseball.

I was the oddball; I raced BMX in high school. Funny thing; I got my first BMX bike, a BMX Mongoose (double gusseted chromoly frame, motomags and the covetted vee-bars; maybe that's why I'm partial to the vee neck dobok?) and went out racing. I was proficient pretty quicly, and after I replaced the motomags with Araya 7X alloy wheels, effectively halving the bike's weight, I started taking home trophies. I eventually replaced the Mongoose with bike built around a GT Pro frame.

Sound like I got up to speed on the track pretty quickly, except that I'd spent my elementary and middle school years getting around on a bicycle and had been running paper routs on a bicycle for several years before I set out to race.

I think that martial arts in the US is such that outside of boxing and wrestling, it is sufficiently alien to most people's experience that they need more time to become proficient.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know about 4-5 years, but I do believe that most dojang in the United States and probably in other international countries take longer than the standard one year it takes to achieve 1st Poom/Dan in Korea. I think it is for a combination of reasons, not the least of which being financial.

1 year is laughable with all due respect. I've worked with a handful of Koreans who came to the US for their advanced degrees and have decided to stay at least for a time in the US. They all have some training in TKD, a couple even had poom belts. They tell me TKD is considered a child's pursuit there and when you come of age, it's time to pursue more respectable pursuits (like school or golf!).

Obviously I'm pained by their feelings about a martial art I spent a lot of time practicing. Yet I can't help but feel that this 1 year term, if that's the standard time frame, is somewhat connected to the lack of regard they feel. In a way, I was surprised about their feelings since I thought TKD was a big source of national pride for South Koreans.

I don't get the same undercurrent of disrespect/amusement from Japanese or Okinawan people about their martial arts, though their participation in martial arts as youth seem to be much less universal than Koreans.

I disagree that a 1st Dan is an expert. I also disagree that we should change our curriculum or what we do because of the perception of lay people. If that were the case, then Taekwondo dojang would still be labeled Korean Karate schools. I think a better approach would be to educate the public that 1st Dan is the lowest rung on a scale that goes to 9 or 10, that it is a level anyone can achieve, just like a high school diploma.

I think lay people are important. They represent future students after all. I have a nagging suspicion that serious beginners who want to learn a fighting art are electing for other styles than TKD, although certainly TKD is the dominant leader in the school age demographic.

Funakoshi Sensei writes about free sparring in his autobiography, Karate-Do My Way of Life. Looking briefly, I found two entries about free sparring: One in the section karate for everyone, states: "Of course, as one progresses in the art, an adversay will be essential in order to practice sparring (kumite) and free sparring (jyu kumite), but a real adversary is not necessary. Another in the section "Spirit of the Game", referencing Okinawan tug of war, states this: "What I learned from observing these tugs of war is that the team that is intent only on winning will usually fail to do so, while the team that enters the contest in order to enjoy the sport without worrying too much about winning or losing will frequently emerge victorious. The observation holds true for a karate bout as for a tug of war."

I'm not sure what to think about that passage you are quoting. It seems less than an endorsement of free sparring, yet it is odd that Funakoshi even mentions it to begin with.

Everything else I have ever read has always stated he opposed free sparring. There are references all over the 'net about Funakoshi, Gichin thinking it was a bad development for martial karate. In fact, Funakoshi's opposition to free sparring is frequently given as a reason why Ohtsuka broke with the Shotokan and formed Wado-ryu. And there is also Shotokai karate, itself a splinter group from the Shotokan formed as a reaction against the pro-sport direction Shotokan was taking, with a mission towards teaching 'orthodox' karate that Funakoshi, Gichin taught.

Traditionally, Okinawan karate did not have dan rank either, so argument exists that there is no need for dan ranks if the focus of the Karate experience is for traditional reasons, rather than modern or competitive ones.

Dan ranks were added to Okinawan karate so that the various styles and their practitioners could become accepted members of the Buto-kai. It was not for competitive purposes from the perspective of the karate-ka although this may have been an aim of the Buto-kai eventually.

 

[dancingalone]

I think that a lot depends on the art and on where the art is being taught. Glenn mentioned BB in one to two years in Korea being the average, and he is not the only one that I have heard say that. But it is also the Korean national sport and is probably part of their physical educaion in school.

See the post immediately above about my experiences talking to Koreans about TKD. From their own mouths, they don't necessarily respect the activity, and I can't help but think this 1 year model is part of the reason for it.

 

[dancingalone]

In the US, football is huge and is played in the US by every boy at some point in time, even if only in pickup games around the neighborhood. Even I can play football, and though I never tried out, I played with friends, sometimes daily, during the summer as a kid. Had I tried out in high school and managed to make the team I would probably have become a proficient player in less than a year. Not due to any great tallent on my part, but because it is 'what boys in America do' on a summer afternoon. That or baseball.

....

I think that martial arts in the US is such that outside of boxing and wrestling, it is sufficiently alien to most people's experience that they need more time to become proficient.

I know nothing about your biking analogy, but I will disagree with your assertion about football and the ease of picking it up, even for an American boy.

Football is a game of very specific physical, mental, and also sensory/intuitive skills. I played quarterback (backup for the most part, although I started 1 season in HS) at the 5A level in Texas, and it's such a specialized game that you have no chance of playing any of the skill positions to a high degree unless you've been playing and learning in ORGANIZED leagues since you were a tyke under GOOD instruction. The kids that go to the expensive camps during the summer by and large are the ones that go on to star at QB in college and later the NFL.

You might be able to pick up the game through natural talent at another position like running back, but not QB and I suspect not wide receiver either.

I think martial arts, especially those with a high degree of sensitivity in their practice, are similar to quarterbacking in football. It takes a lot of time and practice to get where you want to go.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

1 year is laughable with all due respect. I've worked with a handful of Koreans who came to the US for their advanced degrees and have decided to stay at least for a time in the US. They all have some training in TKD, a couple even had poom belts. They tell me TKD is considered a child's pursuit there and when you come of age, it's time to pursue more respectable pursuits (like school or golf!).

I have also heard this before. Which is essentially what taekwondo has become in the US if you go by average age. I'd wager that 80 to 90% of the student body of most TKD schools in the US are under the age of 18. No references to back that up, mind you; its a seat of the pants estimate.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know nothing about your biking analogy, but I will disagree with your assertion about football and the ease of picking it up, even for an American boy.

Football is a game of very specific physical, mental, and also sensory/intuitive skills. I played quarterback (backup for the most part, although I started 1 season in HS) at the 5A level in Texas, and it's such a specialized game that you have no chance of playing any of the skill positions to a high degree unless you've been playing and learning in ORGANIZED leagues since you were a tyke under GOOD instruction. The kids that go to the expensive camps during the summer by and large are the ones that go on to star at QB in college and later the NFL.

You might be able to pick up the game through natural talent at another position like running back, but not QB and I suspect not wide receiver either.

I think martial arts, especially those with a high degree of sensitivity in their practice, are similar to quarterbacking in football. It takes a lot of time and practice to get where you want to go.

I don't disagree, and I was not implying that football is an easy game to pick up either.

By the time I got to high school, I had played enough football that if a pick up game was to be had, I could play and inspite of being the underweight tall skinny guy, I was usually not the last one picked. Football had also been a fairly regular part of PE in elementary and middle school. Any difficulty that I had had in learning how to play the game I had had prior to middle school.

I could throw a ball correctly. I could catch a ball correctly. In short, I was proficient in the basics of football, not a good player, and certainly not good enough to have made the team by any means. There are many proficient drivers on the road. But racing cars requires more than just driving proficiency. Likewise, playing football on a high school, college, or pro team requires more than just proficiency.

However, the vast majority of taekwondoin are not competing. They take class and go home and hopefully practice. It is a much smaller group that actually competes.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

1 year is laughable with all due respect. I've worked with a handful of Koreans who came to the US for their advanced degrees and have decided to stay at least for a time in the US. They all have some training in TKD, a couple even had poom belts. They tell me TKD is considered a child's pursuit there and when you come of age, it's time to pursue more respectable pursuits (like school or golf!).

Laughable only because you are applying your Goju-ryu standard to a non-Goju-ryu art. And in Korea the overwhelming majority of practitioners are children. Very few adults practice taekwondo in Korea and the ones that do, tend to be poomsae or kyorugi competitors.

Obviously I'm pained by their feelings about a martial art I spent a lot of time practicing. Yet I can't help but feel that this 1 year term, if that's the standard time frame, is somewhat connected to the lack of regard they feel. In a way, I was surprised about their feelings since I thought TKD was a big source of national pride for South Koreans.

I don't think it has anything to do with the idea of a one year 1st poom/dan. I think it has to do with the fact that in most dojang in Korea, it is loaded with kids, that it is seen as a kid activity, in much the same way soccer is seen as a childhood activity in the US. You don't see too many adults doing soccer here and the ones that do, are competitors on teams or in leagues. But for most, soccer is a childhood activity.

I think lay people are important. They represent future students after all. I have a nagging suspicion that serious beginners who want to learn a fighting art are electing for other styles than TKD, although certainly TKD is the dominant leader in the school age demographic.

I agree that lay people are important in the sense that they represent future students. But I do not think that they are so important that we should change what we do to fit with their stereotyped misconceptions of what is or isn't a black belt.

I'm not sure what to think about that passage you are quoting. It seems less than an endorsement of free sparring, yet it is odd that Funakoshi even mentions it to begin with.

Not so odd, if you consider that Funakoshi Sensei was a progressive thinker who made radical changes in his day and understood that the Karate of his day must give way to the Karate of his students. He changed the name of the art, changed the order of the kata, changed the name of the kata, adopted a uniform, a dan rank system, got rid of the weapons, so why wouldn't he adopt and embrace free sparring, something that Kano Sensei, a person that he openly admired, also adopted?

Dan ranks were added to Okinawan karate so that the various styles and their practitioners could become accepted members of the Buto-kai. It was not for competitive purposes from the perspective of the karate-ka although this may have been an aim of the Buto-kai eventually.

Sensei Patrick McCarthy talks about the Butokukai in his books "Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts. What he says is that titles such as renshi, kyoshi, etc. were given to the Okinawan pioneers, in part to legitimize Karate; but he doesn't state that dan ranks were given to their students.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

This subject will always make for some great debate and probably because everyone's perception of what a "black belt" is will be different. I know for me personally, I regard a black belt to be good, very good. They should have no trouble handling themselves on the mythical "street" against an untrained attacker (within reason). When I grew up the black belts I knew were like this, they didnt just "know the basics" so my perception is etched by what I grew up considering a black belt to be. For this reason, when I was phoning around looking for a martial arts school to train at I was skeptical of schools giving out black belts in under 4-5 years because I felt no one could learn enough to be black belt standard in that little time. These days Ive just realised its because everyone's view of what a black belt should be seems to differ.

 

[puunui]

Glenn mentioned BB in one to two years in Korea being the average, and he is not the only one that I have heard say that. But it is also the Korean national sport and is probably part of their physical educaion in school.

It's not one to two years; it is one year in Korea. And while there are some elementary schools that are famous for their Taekwondo (Mi Dong, etc.) most students learn Taekwondo at private dojang after school.

I guess I am comparing what a 1st Dan knows to what I knew as a 1st Dan. Looking back, it was next to nothing, especially compared to the information that is available today. Every crumb, every scrap of information came at a very high price. If someone knew something, they kept it for themselves, which is one of the reasons why I try to give information freely. I didn't appreciate the sandbagging that went on back then.

In some ways we were more advanced than today's student (in stretching, and self motivation for example), but it was really crude back then. And I genuinely felt like I was a rank beginner at 1st Dan, especially when compared to some of my more accomplished seniors. Back then, no one asked for my opinion on anything, and I never gave my opinion. If I did open my mouth, it was to ask a question, never to voice my thoughts, especially when there were seniors in the room. No one really asked for my opinion until I was 6th Dan or so. Even at USTU meetings representing my state, I just sat there and soaked it all in. Now my seniors ask for my opinion all the time, while my juniors get upset and offended when they hear me speak. One of my seniors said it best when he said that we are much better juniors to our seniors than our juniors are to us. But what can you do. It's a different world today than it was when we were 1st Dan.... People simply do not think the same way that we did, that we do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It's not one to two years; it is one year in Korea. And while there are some elementary schools that are famous for their Taekwondo (Mi Dong, etc.) most students learn Taekwondo at private dojang after school.

I guess I am comparing what a 1st Dan knows to what I knew as a 1st Dan. Looking back, it was next to nothing, especially compared to the information that is available today. Every crumb, every scrap of information came at a very high price. If someone knew something, they kept it for themselves, which is one of the reasons why I try to give information freely. I didn't appreciate the sandbagging that went on back then.

In some ways we were more advanced than today's student (in stretching, and self motivation for example), but it was really crude back then. And I genuinely felt like I was a rank beginner at 1st Dan, especially when compared to some of my more accomplished seniors. Back then, no one asked for my opinion on anything, and I never gave my opinion. If I did open my mouth, it was to ask a question, never to voice my thoughts, especially when there were seniors in the room. No one really asked for my opinion until I was 6th Dan or so. Even at USTU meetings representing my state, I just sat there and soaked it all in. Now my seniors ask for my opinion all the time, while my juniors get upset and offended when they hear me speak. One of my seniors said it best when he said that we are much better juniors to our seniors than our juniors are to us. But what can you do. It's a different world today than it was when we were 1st Dan.... People simply do not think the same way that we did, that we do.

Probably a good thing its changed. That 'old school' way of thinking really seems outdated and arcaic. I know from personal experience that I have learnt things many times from coloured belts and I know of third or 4th dans who have learnt something from me. Everybody has something to offer and we can learn from any of our class mates. The whole idea of the "elitism" that "Im a 4th dan and you're only a 1st dan so just sit there and dont voice any thoughts, and only open your mouth to ask a question", its just such an outdated way of looking at things. In fact, I learnt something about my trade today at work from one of my 1st year apprentices, and I was happy to hear his thoughts and ideas despite the fact Ive run my business for 18 years and he only has 6 months experience. Its hard to develop in anything if you are close minded and assume you know more about everything than your juniors.

 

[andyjeffries]

soccer is seen as a childhood activity in the US. You don't see too many adults doing soccer here and the ones that do, are competitors on teams or in leagues. But for most, soccer is a childhood activity.

How weird. Over here, soccer is definitely seen as for both children and adults. There is always an indoor football game going on at the Leisure Centre where we train, and I often speak to my friends/family that play in company teams or play with groups of friends after work (and my age group is mid-30s).

I'd also venture as far to say most adult males also support a football team and pay a fleeting to active interest in watching football.

I know my brother in law (who is English but living in USA) has a soccer blog and is having a hard time getting american adults interested in the game...

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How weird. Over here, soccer is definitely seen as for both children and adults. There is always an indoor football game going on at the Leisure Centre where we train, and I often speak to my friends/family that play in company teams or play with groups of friends after work (and my age group is mid-30s).

I'd also venture as far to say most adult males also support a football team and pay a fleeting to active interest in watching football.

I know my brother in law (who is English but living in USA) has a soccer blog and is having a hard time getting american adults interested in the game...

Exactly the same here in Australia. Heaps of adults play soccer, my brother was playing to a decent level until he was 34 and only stopped playing because he went to the UK where he has hooked up with a team over there. Actually its amazing how many adults play competitive sport here well into their 40's and 50's. One of the 6th dans at my club is 53 and still plays competitive rugby league, but thats just crazy.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How weird. Over here, soccer is definitely seen as for both children and adults. There is always an indoor football game going on at the Leisure Centre where we train, and I often speak to my friends/family that play in company teams or play with groups of friends after work (and my age group is mid-30s).

I'd also venture as far to say most adult males also support a football team and pay a fleeting to active interest in watching football.

I know my brother in law (who is English but living in USA) has a soccer blog and is having a hard time getting american adults interested in the game...

Not sure about outside of the US, but in the US, adults playing soccor are like adults playing softball (except that there are way more adults playing softball than soccor). Some do it, but they are definitely in the minority. Most ball sports are put aside after college in the US.

I'd venture that adults playing 'football' in Europe and the UK is like adults playing softball in the US. There are organized leagues and large companies will sometimes have a team, but these adults are still the exception and not the rule.

Aside from friendly pickup games, adults playing ball sports in any organized fashion are definitely the exception. Ball sports are pretty much for kids, teens, and college students. After that, the drop off is pretty sharp.

Daniel