omg! a 4 year in training 3rd dan came in yesterday...

[dancingalone]

I don't know if the ranks are devalued or the lower ranks overvalued, especially 1st Dan.

I'm probably one of those guys. I think 1.5 - 2 years is too short to earn a BB. And if you can really earn a chodan in that time frame credibly then perhaps the requirements are too scant.

I would like to see the time frame and volume of material come into line with what other arts require.

 

[Archtkd]

Well this is just another great example of TKD at it's best, I applaud this young man for being able to get this done because it is a special person that can put 12 years of training into 4. When all of you see this as a a bad thing, I see it as a remarkable and talented young man.........

:rofl: :erg:

Cheers to that! Where's the hot chocolate?

 

[granfire]

you're a bunch of dorks
:lfao:

 

[granfire]

But seriously, we would not have this discussion if the guys ambling into your schools didn't come from a bad school and sport bad technique.

I have met a bunch of 4 year 3rds, even below the majikal age of 18 who could hold their own. Because we have some great instructors who take their job serious.

I am sure you can find just as many 10 year never BBs who have a serious lack of skill because their instructor just sucked.

(and no, the not knowing your forms isn't an argument, considering that every club, erm, organization cooks up their own. And once you get past the basics, learning new forms becomes easier with every one you put your mind to. I had to relearn changed forms, 7 or 8 in four month, well enough to teach. It certainly can be done. And I think relearning a form you have done in a different form is harder than starting with a blank slate.)

 

[StudentCarl]

He came back tonight and signed up for a one month trial period. He wore a red belt to class. I told him he could wear his black but he said he prefered not to.

I see this as good news: you may have a real student there. Time will tell about his perseverence, but I don't see too many who are willing to display the level of honesty and humility that he did. He also clearly respects what a black belt represents. I hope he lasts.

 

[puunui]

I'm probably one of those guys. I think 1.5 - 2 years is too short to earn a BB. And if you can really earn a chodan in that time frame credibly then perhaps the requirements are too scant. I would like to see the time frame and volume of material come into line with what other arts require.

What does 1st dan represent to you? How long would you say is the time required to earn a 1st Dan?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm probably one of those guys. I think 1.5 - 2 years is too short to earn a BB. And if you can really earn a chodan in that time frame credibly then perhaps the requirements are too scant.

I would like to see the time frame and volume of material come into line with what other arts require.

I agree with this. In my way of thinking, no one should have a first dan in under 4 years. I just dont understand someone having a 1st dan in 1.5-2 years, I look at where I was at physically in the art after 2 years and unless standards are way lower at other clubs, I was just nowhere near where someone should be to be walking around with a black belt on.

 

[StudentCarl]

What does 1st dan represent to you? How long would you say is the time required to earn a 1st Dan?

As a 2nd gup about to test for 1st, I see first dan as a level where the student has internalized the gup level material. The best I can explain it is that, in some skills, I'm becoming fluent, natural, and technically right in a way that is focused but not full of effort. When your technique becomes a part of you and doing it comes from your intent rather than having to "think it", it's visible. The first dans I know have that natural correctness across the range of gup material.

I don't think you can put a calendar measure on that, except as a minimum. The problem with sharing that kind of standard is that everyone thinks they are above average. I train 10-12 hours a week (6 days a week) in class and 2-3 outside. That might put me at a different pace than someone who trains 2-3 hours a week. Once I attain 1st gup, by my school's standards I have a minimum of a year to be eligible to test for first dan.

It hasn't been mentioned anywhere else in this thread, but I think that competition experience and training accelerate the timeline because the intensity of effort and instruction is higher.

 

[dancingalone]

What does 1st dan represent to you? How long would you say is the time required to earn a 1st Dan?

It's kind of arbitrary to just blurt out a length of time without adequately qualifying it by listing the entire syllabus.... but I'll do it anyway. I think 4-5 years would be a good length of time to allow the average student to learn and perform the material to a reasonably high level of competence.

To me a 1st dan is NOT 'someone now ready to really learn'. It is not someone who has been merely taught the basics. To me, a 1st dan should look sharp in the execution of his basics and the separation in skill, speed, and power should be quite clear between him and even the high colored belts.

 

[granfire]

It's kind of arbitrary to just blurt out a length of time without adequately qualifying it by listing the entire syllabus.... but I'll do it anyway. I think 4-5 years would be a good length of time to allow the average student to learn and perform the material to a reasonably high level of competence.

To me a 1st dan is NOT 'someone now ready to really learn'. It is not someone who has been merely taught the basics. To me, a 1st dan should look sharp in the execution of his basics and the separation in skill, speed, and power should be quite clear between him and even the high colored belts.

Well, true, but on the other hand it also should be someone who realizes that everything up to this point was just basics, because the real learning does start now.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, true, but on the other hand it also should be someone who realizes that everything up to this point was just basics, because the real learning does start now.

Shouldn't the real learning start from day 1? This is not meant as a personal reproach towards anyone, but it seems a little patronizing to say real learning starts at chodan/shodan, rather discounting the color belt learning period. I actually think what happens at white-green belt is much more pivotal to one's ma career than 1st dan.

 

[granfire]

Shouldn't the real learning start from day 1? This is not meant as a personal reproach towards anyone, but it seems a little patronizing to say real learning starts at chodan/shodan, rather discounting the color belt learning period. I actually think what happens at white-green belt is much more pivotal to one's ma career than 1st dan.

Hm, As the low level - and bear in mind, I did get my BB in a shade under 2 years - you are busy sorting your feet out, practicing the elements, memorizing forms.

Once you have accomplished that you can - without the next new technique - concentrate on how to do things better, put them into context and such things.

So, yes, maybe 'learning' is the wrong term, 'understanding' is closer to it.

Also, while the color belt 'scrubs' look up to you (hopefully) in awe, you realize you are back to being the little grunt, lining up in the back of the class (divided my rank, obviously) again, as you were in the beginning of the journey.
makes for a quick shrink of the head and ego and the realization that there is a lot still left to learn, much more than what you already know.

 

[puunui]

It's kind of arbitrary to just blurt out a length of time without adequately qualifying it by listing the entire syllabus.... but I'll do it anyway. I think 4-5 years would be a good length of time to allow the average student to learn and perform the material to a reasonably high level of competence.

If it takes that long to reach 1st Dan, how about 2nd through 9th Dan?

To me a 1st dan is NOT 'someone now ready to really learn'. It is not someone who has been merely taught the basics. To me, a 1st dan should look sharp in the execution of his basics and the separation in skill, speed, and power should be quite clear between him and even the high colored belts.

How about between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, etc? Do you have ever increasing physical standards for those ranks as well?

Also, is there a competition aspect for your class? I ask because rank was originally to separate skill level amongst competitors, so if you are not competing, there is an argument that there is no need for rank.

 

[dancingalone]

If it takes that long to reach 1st Dan, how about 2nd through 9th Dan?

Whenever the teacher deems it appropriate. Like I posted in another thread, it took me roughly 20 years total to reach 4th in Goju-ryu karate. A lot of the delay for me was in the leap between 1st and 2nd dan. At that point, I was an excellent karate-ka, but I was not an excellent Goju-ryu karate-ka if that makes sense at all. I'm sure other people were judged ready by their teacher in less time.

I view seasoning time as particularly important with shodan. The color black should be a real barrier in my opinion as lay people have no conception of dan levels. Make sure the student is up to snuff before awarding them that crucial 1st dan.

How about between 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd, etc? Do you have ever increasing physical standards for those ranks as well?

I do as does my teacher. Better make sure you're hale and hearty enough to attain these 'physical grades'! Around 4th - 5th, it's more about mastering the system on a mental level, and higher grades still are largely about teaching and contributing back to the system.

Also, is there a competition aspect for your class? I ask because rank was originally to separate skill level amongst competitors, so if you are not competing, there is an argument that there is no need for rank.

Only competition in the sense that you'd better be better than your juniors. Certainly my teacher gave allowances for age and injury, but if you were coming up the BB ranks, you were expected to excel.

As for the relation between competition and dan ranking, I don't necessarily believe there was originally a correlation, at least in karate. I know about the game of go and how Kano came up with a similar system for judo. But in Shotokan and Shito-ryu karate, when dan rankings first became implemented there was no tournament competition in kumite nor kata. This was added later. And certain Okinawan styles like Goju-ryu resisted the competition trend for much longer, despite also adopting the dan system after the death of their founder.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

It's kind of arbitrary to just blurt out a length of time without adequately qualifying it by listing the entire syllabus.... but I'll do it anyway. I think 4-5 years would be a good length of time to allow the average student to learn and perform the material to a reasonably high level of competence.

To me a 1st dan is NOT 'someone now ready to really learn'. It is not someone who has been merely taught the basics. To me, a 1st dan should look sharp in the execution of his basics and the separation in skill, speed, and power should be quite clear between him and even the high colored belts.

This is my way of thinking. A 1st dan will be asked to demo techniques, coloured belts will come to them with questions and you represent your club as a black belt. Merely knowing the material to a good standard is not good enough in my opinion. Basically, a 1st dan should look impressive, they should be fast, powerful and the techniques should be part of their muscle memory and as you said "they should be able to perform the material to a reasonably high level of competence". After all, they are a black belt. I remember a guy at school who trained at a very popular and well known karate place in our area and he got a black belt because "he knew the basics". Anyway, one day he got in a fight at school with your average school bully and had the absolute crap beaten out of him in front of most of the school. That incident was the worst possible advertisment for his karate school and word travels fast. Bottom line, a black belt can defend themself, they dont "just know the basics" in my opinion. They dont have to be a world beater by any means, but if you have a black belt you should know what you are doing. In saying that though, I can respect that some schools do view the black belt differently and this is just my opinion.

 

[Balrog]

He had a good front kick. That's about it. He could do some weird Handstand kicks and his acrobatics were nice. Told me he has trained ata for about 4 years. Got his 3rd dan 3 months ago.

I don't buy that. It takes a lot longer than 4 years to make 3rd Degree in ATA.

 

[msmitht]

I don't buy that. It takes a lot longer than 4 years to make 3rd Degree in ATA.

It is what his parents told me. One year to first, said he trained every day, one to second and two to third.

 

[IcemanSK]

msmitht, He's a kid & just testied a few months ago. What was his reasoning for changing schools?

 

[hungryninja]

It is what his parents told me. One year to first, said he trained every day, one to second and two to third.

one year to first sounds like the student either skipped a lot of belts, or he came in as an intermediate level from another school/style. If the student started from white, the fastest one could advance in rank in ATA would be 1.5 years (without skipping). But that is rare, as average is about 3 years to get to 1st degree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

msmitht, He's a kid & just testied a few months ago. What was his reasoning for changing schools?

With the economy being what it is, it could very well have been driven by mom and dad wanting to keep their son in the arts but not to pay as much as what the other school was charging.

Daniel