Old School Taekwondo Being Practically All Kicks

[J. Pickard]

Hi

Taekkyeon looks very different from TKD. I'm not sure why or who tried to make that connection.

President Syngman Rhee made the connection originally telling Choi and his right hand man Nam Tae-hi that their TSD couldn't possibley be karate because it looked like Taekkyeon. That's (supposedly) where the idea for the "tae" in taekwondo comes from. There were some reconstruction efforts in the 60s and 70s involving resurecting taekkyeon and a few TKD guys tried to jump on the bandwagon. The influence is very minimal and mostly stops at the name.

 

[J. Pickard]

So you're saying early Taekwondo had takedowns and holds the way Judo does? Judo is primarily a grappling art that consists of throwing your opponent and then getting them in a submission hold once they're on the ground. Are you saying TKD had that in it?

Yes. 3 of the founding kwans were of Kodokan Judo lineage; Yun moo kwan, Han moo kwan, and Jido Kwan. These types of techniques are also found in the karate that the majority of the kwans taught.

So it sounds to me that they were trying to make TKD more like ballet or Extreme Martial Arts because they wanted to look athletic. In other words, they were more interested in looking good for Hollywood with what they did with TKD.

Hollywood has nothing to do with it. It was about looking strong after the Japanese annexation ended and rebuilding the Korean identity. A lot of it was also ego, Choi wanted his kwan to be in charge of the unification of the kwans and he figured if he could make his students look "superior" to others in the eyes of the new government then they would put him in charge. It worked for a while, then there was a bunch of infighting and political squabbling.

 

[Dirty Dog]

So you're saying early Taekwondo had takedowns and holds the way Judo does? Judo is primarily a grappling art that consists of throwing your opponent and then getting them in a submission hold once they're on the ground. Are you saying TKD had that in it?

No. Not had, HAS.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The French art of Savate for instance when it was first developed was almost entirely a kicking art.

Savate always had lots of punching. There is some really old film showing the punching techniques used with the kicks. They have some techniques that are similar to CMA long fist as well

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you're saying early Taekwondo had takedowns and holds the way Judo does? Judo is primarily a grappling art that consists of throwing your opponent and then getting them in a submission hold once they're on the ground. Are you saying TKD had that in it?

Tkd is alot more than what we see in the Olympics. I don't like Olympics TKD. I like the practical TKD. but not all schools teach it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

President Syngman Rhee made the connection originally telling Choi and his right hand man Nam Tae-hi that their TSD couldn't possibley be karate because it looked like Taekkyeon. That's (supposedly) where the idea for the "tae" in taekwondo comes from. There were some reconstruction efforts in the 60s and 70s involving resurecting taekkyeon and a few TKD guys tried to jump on the bandwagon. The influence is very minimal and mostly stops at the name.

Ahh that's what happened. I knew about the effort to make the connection to claim a native Korean fighting system but I didn't know about the President pushing that narrative.

 

[Earl Weiss]

What I mean by emphasis is the techniques and drills that are taught and practiced in a typical class. Are they mostly kicks, mostly hand strikes, or is it about fifty/fifty?

Again you have the issue of a "Typical" class. Who knows what ay instructor or class may emphasize. FWIW the first 2 fundamental exercises and and first 3 patterns in the Chang Hon system have no kicks. Only hand / arm techniques.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Ahh that's what happened. I knew about the effort to make the connection to claim a native Korean fighting system but I didn't know about the President pushing that narrative.

He pushed a lot more than the narrative. He tasked General Choi with teaching the troops and allowed the military to provide the resources to spread TK-D.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Again you have the issue of a "Typical" class. Who knows what ay instructor or class may emphasize. FWIW the first 2 fundamental exercises and and first 3 patterns in the Chang Hon system have no kicks. Only hand / arm techniques.

The Kicho forms have no kicks. Palgwae 1 and 3 have no kicks. Palgwae 2 and 4 each have front kicks, and kicks are in the other Palgwae forms, but the forms are still 90% hand/arm techniques. The Taegeuk forms include kicks from the start, but are 80-90% hand/arm techniques. The Yudanja forms all include kicks, but, again, spend much more time on hand/arm techniques.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes. 3 of the founding kwans were of Kodokan Judo lineage; Yun moo kwan, Han moo kwan, and Jido Kwan. These types of techniques are also found in the karate that the majority of the kwans taught.

Well I haven't seen that sort of stuff in modern TKD.

Hollywood has nothing to do with it. It was about looking strong after the Japanese annexation ended and rebuilding the Korean identity. A lot of it was also ego, Choi wanted his kwan to be in charge of the unification of the kwans and he figured if he could make his students look "superior" to others in the eyes of the new government then they would put him in charge. It worked for a while, then there was a bunch of infighting and political squabbling.

Doing stuff such as jumping over cars as you mentioned works great in Hollywood even if it isn't all that practical for self defense. Even if they weren't intending to do stuff that look great in Hollywood, that's what they were doing. I would be more interested in perfecting practical fighting techniques, but that's just me.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Savate always had lots of punching. There is some really old film showing the punching techniques used with the kicks. They have some techniques that are similar to CMA long fist as well

Well France is the birthplace of Savate and apparently punching was banned in France at one time.

 

[Earl Weiss]

President Syngman Rhee made the connection originally telling Choi and his right hand man Nam Tae-hi that their TSD couldn't possibley be karate because it looked like Taekkyeon. That's (supposedly) where the idea for the "tae" in taekwondo comes from.

Interesting take. As I understood it. 1. President Rhee spoke to General Choi who was on the dais watching the demo with him of which GM Nam was a part making the comment about Taekkyeon, and asked GM Nam to come up so he could look at his hand after breaking 13 Roofing Tiles. 2. GM Nam never mentioned to me that he heard from or spoke to President Rhee about this , only that he helped General Choi research the name.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well France is the birthplace of Savate and apparently punching was banned in France at one time.

Do you have any source for this? I tried googling it, and all that came up was a reddit post making this claim, and the Wikipedia post having a sentence on it, neither with an actual source. I'd be interested to know more about it.

That said, both of those also stated that a closed fist was banned, so savate initially used open-hand strikes instead.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Traditional Japanese and Okinawan karate was practiced mostly by farmers and fishermen. Such occupations do not require such skilled use of the hands as some of the crafts that the Koreans excelled in, such as designing furniture.

There's no way in hell a karate black belt just said this...

 

[HighKick]

Do you have any source for this? I tried googling it, and all that came up was a reddit post making this claim, and the Wikipedia post having a sentence on it, neither with an actual source. I'd be interested to know more about it.

That said, both of those also stated that a closed fist was banned, so savate initially used open-hand strikes instead.

As I understand, it is the French version of kickboxing brought from sailors, so to say it originated there would be speculative at best.
It does mean 'old shoe' in French (don't ask me how I remember that).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Savate

kicks and slaps were used on land to avoid the legal penalties for using a closed fist, which was considered a deadly weapon under the law

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well France is the birthplace of Savate and apparently punching was banned in France at one time.

Take a look

Best use of hands thst I've seen from old savate. Good example of cane and staff techniques

 

[skribs]

No. Not had, HAS.

Today, one of my BJJ classmates (a fellow blue belt) was showing me some entries for a drop seoi nage (sacrifice throw or shoulder/hip throw, I'm probably butchering the translation). He had been working on them with a friend of our professor's. He was struggling with one entry, where you cross your opponent's arms over your shoulder. I was like "let me try" and absolutely flung him. Then I did it in slow motion to show the mechanics, and how it's not just the leverage on the throw, but also the shoulder pressuring into the elbows to make the other person comply with the throw.

"You'll never guess where I learned that...Taekwondo class."

 

[JowGaWolf]

Today, one of my BJJ classmates (a fellow blue belt) was showing me some entries for a drop seoi nage (sacrifice throw or shoulder/hip throw, I'm probably butchering the translation). He had been working on them with a friend of our professor's. He was struggling with one entry, where you cross your opponent's arms over your shoulder. I was like "let me try" and absolutely flung him. Then I did it in slow motion to show the mechanics, and how it's not just the leverage on the throw, but also the shoulder pressuring into the elbows to make the other person comply with the throw.

"You'll never guess where I learned that...Taekwondo class."

This is why is like talking to people from other systems. people like you help to fill in gaps or offer a different perspective.

 

[J. Pickard]

Interesting take. As I understood it. 1. President Rhee spoke to General Choi who was on the dais watching the demo with him of which GM Nam was a part making the comment about Taekkyeon, and asked GM Nam to come up so he could look at his hand after breaking 13 Roofing Tiles. 2. GM Nam never mentioned to me that he heard from or spoke to President Rhee about this , only that he helped General Choi research the name.

Regardless of the details, Rhee seems to be the one who initially insisted on the Taekkyeon connection/resemblance.