What exactly is the difference between "modern" and "old-school" Taekwondo?

[andyjeffries]

it is certainly not fair to rate a 4th (or even 3rd) rank back then to today's "rapid advancement" 4th Dan's. Dynamically opposed. So I could never look down on any of the historical figures based on their 'rank' of the time. Just a different animal back then.

I wasn't judging the 4th Dan, most of the school heads were 4th Dan in those days. It's the fact that it was honorary. And he then asked for a 6th Dan because his "blood brother" (close friend) had received one.

 

[andyjeffries]

yeah, hard to believe.
(I actually read several histories)

Likewise, I've done the same and haven't found one that refers to Choi unifying the Kwans. Could you maybe reference one that says that?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Choi did a lot for popularising and promoting Taekwondo, and for that I'm grateful, but let's not take credit from a bunch of honourable grandmasters who unified Taekwondo and give it to one guy, who in reality is the cause of the major split in Taekwondo. 9 Kwans (we'll ignore the 10th administration only Kwan) came together to unify to form Taekwondo, KTA, and then Kukkiwon. General Choi was the only one to split away - even his original Kwan Ohdokwan still exists in Korea and fully supports Kukkiwon.

Ohhhhhhhhh.... you were doing so well in your correction up to this point....
Two words for you. Hwang Kee.

 

[andyjeffries]

Ohhhhhhhhh.... you were doing so well in your correction up to this point....
Two words for you. Hwang Kee.

Hwang Kee was a bit of a strange case, but even so he was still the Chief Director (E Sa Jang) of the KTA in 1959 so the part about "came together" still holds true. Also current MDK HQ in Korea is part of KTA and follows KKW syllabus. I know there's a MDK Tang Soo Do offshoot, but the Taekwondo portion is KTA/KKW. So while Hwang Kee may have split away, MDK remains, so my point remains

I look forward to your further details though...

Out of interest, I believe GM Kang Shin-chul is the current head of Moodukkwan in Korea, but I'm not sure I'm right. Any MDK members that can confirm or correct that?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hwang Kee was a bit of a strange case,

That's certainly true.

but even so he was still the Chief Director (E Sa Jang) of the KTA in 1959 so the part about "came together" still holds true. Also current MDK HQ in Korea is part of KTA and follows KKW syllabus.

That is VERY debatable. As founder of the MDK, Hwang Kee considered his to be the only valid MDK system. And the branch that stayed with the KTA completely bogus.

I know there's a MDK Tang Soo Do offshoot, but the Taekwondo portion is KTA/KKW. So while Hwang Kee may have split away, MDK remains, so my point remains

I look forward to your further details though...

Currently you can find MDK TKD that follows the KKW system. Also, MDK TKD that does not follow the KKW. Also MDK TSD that follows the system Hwang Kee taught prior to the unification and immediately following his split. Also MDK Soo Bahk Do that follows his final teaching. This last is the only one Hwang Kee would recognise.

Out of interest, I believe GM Kang Shin-chul is the current head of Moodukkwan in Korea, but I'm not sure I'm right. Any MDK members that can confirm or correct that?

You'd have to start by clarifying which of those MDK system you're talking about.

 

[andyjeffries]

I don't know about MDK history and politics as much as I do about general Taekwondo history and politics. For example, when Hwang Kee left Korea (he went to USA, right?) did the other seniors of MDK agree that the MDK HQ was moving to USA? Or did they vote to keep a current president in the current offices and regard him as the founder rather than current president?

I generally have a very weird personal view though that the Kwans all have an HQ in Korea, and have maintained lineage there, so HQs of Kwans being outside of Korea are an offshoot rather than official. That view may coloured by the fact that I'm CMK and that's the case there, maybe if I'd been MDK/ODK I'd have viewed it very differently.

 

[granfire]

Likewise, I've done the same and haven't found one that refers to Choi unifying the Kwans. Could you maybe reference one that says that?

LOL< It always depends on who's disciple penned the history.
But do carry on.
your dissertations only underscore my point: TheEgo with the biggest muscle in a room full of big egos.

TKD might be 'the largest' martial art in the world. but you can't find enough practitioners to fill a kiddy pool who agree which branch and subdivision is TKD.

Choi fell from grace for aiding and abetting.
His motives I have never seen anywhere examined in any shape or form.
But hailing myself from a previously divided country, I can assume one or another of his motives.

 

[dvcochran]

Hwang Kee was a bit of a strange case, but even so he was still the Chief Director (E Sa Jang) of the KTA in 1959 so the part about "came together" still holds true. Also current MDK HQ in Korea is part of KTA and follows KKW syllabus. I know there's a MDK Tang Soo Do offshoot, but the Taekwondo portion is KTA/KKW. So while Hwang Kee may have split away, MDK remains, so my point remains

I look forward to your further details though...

Out of interest, I believe GM Kang Shin-chul is the current head of Moodukkwan in Korea, but I'm not sure I'm right. Any MDK members that can confirm or correct that?

andyjefferies, there is a strong MDK TKD contingent worldwide. Many schools, like ours, teach a combination of traditional MDK material And WT/KKW material. To complete at more than a local level in TKD this is necessary. If someone has no desire to compete under WT rules then there is a avenue to advance without it And get KKW certification.
This dogma that there is only "one" TKD way is silly. It never has been that way. Hell, there is not 'one' of any style I can think of.
If you insist on including the 4 Kwans that materialized after the war then in fairness the number would be upwards of 40 Kwans. There are 5 major Kwan's historically speaking, CMK, CDK, JDK, MDK, & SMK. The motivation to establish the KTA was to unify all the Kwans. From what I understand most of the major Kwans do still exist largely as a historical reference in Korea. Many people still practice the original material.

Dirty Dog, to my knowledge, Hwang H.C., Kwan Jang Nim is still the President of MDK. Is this your understanding?
Donggyu Lee, Sa Bon Nim is Deputy in Korea but I do not know if that title holds as the 'head' of Korean MDK.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty Dog, to my knowledge, Hwang H.C., Kwan Jang Nim is still the President of MDK. Is this your understanding?
Donggyu Lee, Sa Bon Nim is Deputy in Korea but I do not know if that title holds as the 'head' of Korean MDK.

That would be my understanding, yes. Of the MDK SBK at least. But I also accept that there is a "President Of The MDK" for every splinter. And that's fine.

 

[andyjeffries]

LOL< It always depends on who's disciple penned the history.
But do carry on.
your dissertations only underscore my point: TheEgo with the biggest muscle in a room full of big egos.

TKD might be 'the largest' martial art in the world. but you can't find enough practitioners to fill a kiddy pool who agree which branch and subdivision is TKD.

Choi fell from grace for aiding and abetting.
His motives I have never seen anywhere examined in any shape or form.
But hailing myself from a previously divided country, I can assume one or another of his motives.

I'm sorry, I don't understand? You said you'd read several histories but now can't present one that contains your opinion that he was the unifying influence behind the Kwan unification?

You somehow feel I have an ego about this - I wasn't present at any of the unification meetings, I'm too young. I came along after and, like you, have just read histories from that time (Modern History of Taekwondo, Kukkiwon textbook, A Killing art - although I don't like it, ITF Encyclopaedia set, etc) as well as the history lectures on the Kukkiwon master courses.

This isn't about me shouting you down or somehow proving I'm better than you (the only things I think you mean when you talk about ego), but if someone has actually claimed this in a history of Taekwondo, I want to read it because I haven't up to now so it's a different perspective that I want to read.

 

[andyjeffries]

andyjefferies, there is a strong MDK TKD contingent worldwide. Many schools, like ours, teach a combination of traditional MDK material And WT/KKW material. To complete at more than a local level in TKD this is necessary. If someone has no desire to compete under WT rules then there is a avenue to advance without it And get KKW certification.
This dogma that there is only "one" TKD way is silly. It never has been that way. Hell, there is not 'one' of any style I can think of.

Strangely if you speak to 99% of Taekwondoin in Korea, they won't even refer to (and depending on age may not even know about) the Kwans, there is only one Taekwondo in their eyes - Kukkiwon.

If you insist on including the 4 Kwans that materialized after the war then in fairness the number would be upwards of 40 Kwans. There are 5 major Kwan's historically speaking, CMK, CDK, JDK, MDK, & SMK. The motivation to establish the KTA was to unify all the Kwans. From what I understand most of the major Kwans do still exist largely as a historical reference in Korea. Many people still practice the original material.

When I've mentioned the Kwans, I'm generally talking about those that attended the 1961 unification events: Jidokwan, Chungdokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, Songmookwan, Ohdokwan, Kangdukwon, Hanmookwan and the Jungdokwan (Chungdokwan offshoot). There were lots of smaller kwans, but they weren't large enough to take part in those events.

I agree most of the major Kwans still exist in Korea, they still give out Dan rank to members (although also promote Kukkiwon rank) and often hold social events. They do (as far as I know) all 100% perform standard Kukkiwon Taekwondo though, not some older Kwan-specific version.

Dirty Dog, to my knowledge, Hwang H.C., Kwan Jang Nim is still the President of MDK. Is this your understanding?
Donggyu Lee, Sa Bon Nim is Deputy in Korea but I do not know if that title holds as the 'head' of Korean MDK.

Thank you for this. I didn't read all of the article about GM Kang, Shin-chul (I was tired and it was in Korean, so my focus wasn't there enough to read all of it), so I wonder what the article was claiming then.

Do you happen to know Hwang "H.C"'s given name? Is he a relative of GM Hwang Kee?

 

[_Simon_]

I'm sorry, I don't understand? You said you'd read several histories but now can't present one that contains your opinion that he was the unifying influence behind the Kwan unification?

You somehow feel I have an ego about this - I wasn't present at any of the unification meetings, I'm too young. I came along after and, like you, have just read histories from that time (Modern History of Taekwondo, Kukkiwon textbook, A Killing art - although I don't like it, ITF Encyclopaedia set, etc) as well as the history lectures on the Kukkiwon master courses.

This isn't about me shouting you down or somehow proving I'm better than you (the only things I think you mean when you talk about ego), but if someone has actually claimed this in a history of Taekwondo, I want to read it because I haven't up to now so it's a different perspective that I want to read.

I think granfire was referring to Choi having the big ego, not yourself

 

[dvcochran]

Strangely if you speak to 99% of Taekwondoin in Korea, they won't even refer to (and depending on age may not even know about) the Kwans, there is only one Taekwondo in their eyes - Kukkiwon.



When I've mentioned the Kwans, I'm generally talking about those that attended the 1961 unification events: Jidokwan, Chungdokwan, Changmookwan, Moodukkwan, Songmookwan, Ohdokwan, Kangdukwon, Hanmookwan and the Jungdokwan (Chungdokwan offshoot). There were lots of smaller kwans, but they weren't large enough to take part in those events.

I agree most of the major Kwans still exist in Korea, they still give out Dan rank to members (although also promote Kukkiwon rank) and often hold social events. They do (as far as I know) all 100% perform standard Kukkiwon Taekwondo though, not some older Kwan-specific version.



Thank you for this. I didn't read all of the article about GM Kang, Shin-chul (I was tired and it was in Korean, so my focus wasn't there enough to read all of it), so I wonder what the article was claiming then.

Do you happen to know Hwang "H.C"'s given name? Is he a relative of GM Hwang Kee?

From what I have gathered it is rather amazing how quickly Korea was able unify TKD in their country, especially given the time and communication gaps, influences and mass scattering of styles there. There is much speculation that what occurred was essentially a coup, S.O.P. there for decades. Regardless, it set the path for South Korean MA's going forward. But I would caution you to think that is where the history began. Always fascinating to me that a martial art/sport has become the marquis icon for a whole country.

I cannot say with certainty but I would assume the Kwan's still organizing in Korea practice their heritage. Why else would they organize? Very similar to how TKD schools globally that are XXX Kwan practice more than just WT/KKW curriculum, which is what we do. I have worked out and/or taught at around 200 schools in North America and this is a consistent theme.
And I sincerely hope so because, brother, that curriculum is seriously lacking, assuming one is looking for more that just competing.

H.C. Hwang is one of his son's.

 

[andyjeffries]

From what I have gathered it is rather amazing how quickly Korea was able unify TKD in their country, especially given the time and communication gaps, influences and mass scattering of styles there. There is much speculation that what occurred was essentially a coup, S.O.P. there for decades. Regardless, it set the path for South Korean MA's going forward. But I would caution you to think that is where the history began. Always fascinating to me that a martial art/sport has become the marquis icon for a whole country.

I agree.

I cannot say with certainty but I would assume the Kwan's still organizing in Korea practice their heritage. Why else would they organize?

Because in Korean culture, relationships are SUPER important and often more so than competence or ability. So they really value that maintaining a link/relationship with the other kwan members (at least the older generation does - the younger generation more often talk about which university they studied Taekwondo at than which kwan they're from).

Very similar to how TKD schools globally that are XXX Kwan practice more than just WT/KKW curriculum, which is what we do. I have worked out and/or taught at around 200 schools in North America and this is a consistent theme.

That's interesting. My main Kwan experience is with Changmookwan, and I know they 100% follow the Kukkiwon syllabus/standards, and the organisation exists more as a friendship organisation (organising events, competitions, etc) and dan rank issuing centre.

And I sincerely hope so because, brother, that curriculum is seriously lacking, assuming one is looking for more that just competing.

Really? I don't feel it's lacking. Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo has basic techniques, poomsae, destruction - power and athletic jumps/spings, sparring, self-defence (including groundwork and grappling). The only thing I can think isn't covered is weapons training, and I'm OK with that.

H.C. Hwang is one of his son's.

Do you know his given name rather than just "H.C."? Just so I can make a note of it.

 

[granfire]

From what I have gathered it is rather amazing how quickly Korea was able unify TKD in their country, especially given the time and communication gaps, influences and mass scattering of styles there.

It was a matter of national pride after 53, after being dominated by China and Russia for decades, annexed by Japan for almost 40.

 

[granfire]

It was a matter of national pride after 53, after being dominated by China and Russia for decades, annexed by Japan for almost 40.

It should read 'national identity'

 

[dvcochran]

I agree.



Because in Korean culture, relationships are SUPER important and often more so than competence or ability. So they really value that maintaining a link/relationship with the other kwan members (at least the older generation does - the younger generation more often talk about which university they studied Taekwondo at than which kwan they're from).



That's interesting. My main Kwan experience is with Changmookwan, and I know they 100% follow the Kukkiwon syllabus/standards, and the organisation exists more as a friendship organisation (organising events, competitions, etc) and dan rank issuing centre.



Really? I don't feel it's lacking. Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo has basic techniques, poomsae, destruction - power and athletic jumps/spings, sparring, self-defence (including groundwork and grappling). The only thing I can think isn't covered is weapons training, and I'm OK with that.



Do you know his given name rather than just "H.C."? Just so I can make a note of it.

Kwan Jang Nim Hwang, Hyun-Chul.

I am glad your school is well rounded. More so back in the 80's-90's I visited several WT/KKW schools that only worked on Kukki poomsae and sparring. I do know they have been working on a more well rounded syllabus for some time but have not really had a reason to research it in depth. Of course I cannot say for sure but I suspect your school may do more. Is there published KKW curriculum yet?
Our schools sound similar. Our GM has been on the Kukkiwon steering committee since 1996 and we have always had a robust SD program including a small amount of grappling. Our roots go back pre Kukkiwon and we regularly punch to the face when sparring. For those who are entering more than just local tourneys we have sparring classes.

 

[andyjeffries]

Kwan Jang Nim Hwang, Hyun-Chul.

Just in case you didn't know, if you're using the Korean title it should go after the name. Maybe worth something as a tip Or feel free to ignore

Anyway, thank you for his full name - I really appreciate it.

I am glad your school is well rounded. More so back in the 80's-90's I visited several WT/KKW schools that only worked on Kukki poomsae and sparring. I do know they have been working on a more well rounded syllabus for some time but have not really had a reason to research it in depth. Of course I cannot say for sure but I suspect your school may do more. Is there published KKW curriculum yet?

Unfortunately not, there are grading syllabus but it doesn't include self-defence. I believe they are publishing a book and a video on self-defence and step sparring, but I haven't heard yet that they are completed. They showed a rough cut of the video syllabus on the master course in 2016, but it was various masters in various dojangs, rather than professionally shot and edited.

Our schools sound similar. Our GM has been on the Kukkiwon steering committee since 1996 and we have always had a robust SD program including a small amount of grappling. Our roots go back pre Kukkiwon and we regularly punch to the face when sparring. For those who are entering more than just local tourneys we have sparring classes.

That's awesome that you also have a robust SD programme, I feel it adds a lot to a person's confidence level (even if some of the techniques/combinations are rather unrealistic - although then I try to avoid teaching them too much and mark down in a grading if used).

 

[dvcochran]

Just in case you didn't know, if you're using the Korean title it should go after the name. Maybe worth something as a tip Or feel free to ignore

Anyway, thank you for his full name - I really appreciate it.



Unfortunately not, there are grading syllabus but it doesn't include self-defence. I believe they are publishing a book and a video on self-defence and step sparring, but I haven't heard yet that they are completed. They showed a rough cut of the video syllabus on the master course in 2016, but it was various masters in various dojangs, rather than professionally shot and edited.



That's awesome that you also have a robust SD programme, I feel it adds a lot to a person's confidence level (even if some of the techniques/combinations are rather unrealistic - although then I try to avoid teaching them too much and mark down in a grading if used).

This sounds about part for WT/KKW. As hard as they try to deny it all they are really concerned with is competition and keeping their Olympic slot. I have been to a Lot of KKW schools in North America and have never seen anyone claim to teach a KKW self defense curriculum. It is disappointing and where misinformed people like @Steve get the idea that all KKW schools are crap. All TKD just cannot be painted with the same brush.
I agree it is a necessary label for most TKD schools to be successful from a business sense. That said it is Not a complete curriculum. I imagine the SD videos you mentioned were from instructors like ours who are seriously vested in WT/KKW but have a wealth of other background. Sad and frustrating (and typical) that a bunch of 'A' type Korean personalities still haven't gotten along enough to build a full curriculum. And it is going on 50 years now.

 

[dvcochran]

***Correction***
I did not realize I placed the salutation backwards. Thank you for pointing it out.
I apologize to Hwang Hyun-Chul, Kwan Jang Nim for the error.