old school/clasic tkd

[mastercole]

True. There are kkw clubs everywhere, BUT they are tiny, 20 or 30 students. That is pretty much the norm. We have some big kkw clubs in sydney, where I currently reside. Ive never said kkw clubs dont exist here, they do, but when you are talking big successful clubs over here you are talking about chois, or moon lee, or rhee, or a host of others. Tans would be the only wtf club here thats a 'household name', and thats only because one of the trainers on 'biggest loser' is a 5th dan there and plugs it at every opportunity, and its where lauren burns (gold medalist) trained from memory.

My buddy who owns a chain of school in Queensland said when they open a new school, they advertise for a month before they open and usually have about 40 to 50 students on the first day of class. He said that is typical for Queensland schools. He also said there are over one hundred Kukkiwon schools there. How many did you go into and count the students?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

My buddy who owns a chain of school in Queensland said when they open a new school, they advertise for a month before they open and usually have about 40 to 50 students on the first day of class. He said that is typical for Queensland schools. He also said there are over one hundred Kukkiwon schools there. How many did you go into and count the students?

what chain of schools? 'southern cross' springs to mind but he is grossly exagerating if thats the case. I just had a quick check then in a qld phone book (it is a couple of years old) and they obviously dont advertise because there are no kkw clubs in there that I would say are even on par with the big names. Literally hundreds of smaller schools, all running out of a small set premises where you could not cater for more than 50 students tops. My instructor alone has 150 students, and he only runs a couple of classes as part of a much bigger club. Hang on, its not russell macarthur is it? they have a few clubs around the place in qld, not exactly a large chain though.

 

[andyjeffries]

Tans would be the only wtf club here thats a 'household name', and thats only because one of the trainers on 'biggest loser' is a 5th dan there and plugs it at every opportunity, and its where lauren burns (gold medalist) trained from memory.

I've never heard of Tans, but the 5th Dan Kukki-Taekwondo trainer on Biggest Loser is Tiffiny Hall from Hall's Taekwondo (http://www.hallstaekwondo.com.au/).

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I've never heard of Tans, but the 5th Dan Kukki-Taekwondo trainer on Biggest Loser is Tiffiny Hall from Hall's Taekwondo (http://www.hallstaekwondo.com.au/).

You are correct, I always mix those two up. I believe lauren burns was also from Hall's. I was thinking of http://www.tans.com.au/ for some reason.

 

[miguksaram]

Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD is far superior. Old school TKD masters would dress you up in a tight 1970's style leisure pants, take you to a dark alley and the simulate 30 fat drunken slobs trying to fanny bang you. That way you would know how to use your real TKD. Just the other day I was speaking with Great Grandmaster Yu-suk Fool. He told me how, in the 1960's he would throw 10 students in a small hagwon and have them fight with each other...while he called them dog face butt sniffers. He would only stop the drill when only two emerged. Then he would take those two to the local yoja noribang and have them throw down with the bouncers. That is how all old style TKD trained

He doesn't understand why people in TKD have taken to the silly new methods of training which helps develop better body mechanics. After all the science of the 1960's, especially in Korea, that helped developed his methods are perfect there is no need to keep exploring for more better ways. Geeeeez.....I wish you two would just accept this and move on.

 

[miguksaram]

Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD....

Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded. The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit. I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion. If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school. So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever. Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.

 

[chrispillertkd]

What a waste this section is becoming.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD is far superior. Old school TKD masters would dress you up in a tight 1970's style leisure pants, take you to a dark alley and the simulate 30 fat drunken slobs trying to fanny bang you. That way you would know how to use your real TKD. Just the other day I was speaking with Great Grandmaster Yu-suk Fool. He told me how, in the 1960's he would throw 10 students in a small hagwon and have them fight with each other...while he called them dog face butt sniffers. He would only stop the drill when only two emerged. Then he would take those two to the local yoja noribang and have them throw down with the bouncers. That is how all old style TKD trained

He doesn't understand why people in TKD have taken to the silly new methods of training which helps develop better body mechanics. After all the science of the 1960's, especially in Korea, that helped developed his methods are perfect there is no need to keep exploring for more better ways. Geeeeez.....I wish you two would just accept this and move on.

I don't know who neg-repped you Jeremy, but it was well-deserved in this case. Your post is in poor taste and disrespectful. You may think it's funny, but it keeps the 'us vs. them' mentality going when 'we' are trying hard to have an open, honest and intelligent conversation. Posts like yours are going to do nothing but provoke people and get the thread closed again. Which too be honest, I suspect is the goal of you and two others.

 

[dancingalone]

Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded. The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit. I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion. If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school. So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever. Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.

I didn't neg rep you, miguksaram, but I did think the sarcasm in your post unnecessary. I'd rather we deescalate the tension on the forum, and I've been biting back my words (fingers?) a few times in the last weeks as I realized I didn't want to add to the unfriendly atmosphere. It's fine to disagree with each other but let's do so with framed arguments and exchanges.

Cheers.

(Edit - Just noticed Kong Soo Do's post above and while I generally agree with what he wrote except the remark about other people's intentions, please note I'm taking no sides here. We all need to calm down a bit.)

 

[jks9199]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. Drop the shots, stay on topic, and play by the rules.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator

 

[dancingalone]

A question for anyone who can answer it: With regard to a simple reverse punch, has the technique been improved upon bio-mechanically recently or are we talking about building faster, stronger, bigger athletes through 'modern training methods'?

 

[Archtkd]

A question for anyone who can answer it: With regard to a simple reverse punch, has the technique been improved upon bio-mechanically recently or are we talking about building faster, stronger, bigger athletes through 'modern training methods'?

I think the footwork and timing applied in throwing that punch is what many practitioners, me included, work on sharpening and tweaking.

I don't know enough of the eastern martial arts history of the punch to seriously discuss its earlier analytics, but how one moves their feet and distributes balance has a lot to do with landing it with maximum effect, especially at the solar plexus/trunk (the intended target in WTF sparring). The rotation of the wrist and positioning of knuckles are also key. The footwork I'm speaking of would include throwing the punch from a stationery position at someone coming at you, sliding foward to block and cut distance while throwing the punch, jumping forward (both feet) up as is common with lots of WTF fighters) to hit with a downward angle, and moving sideways to evade and cut distance. And by the way, I hope we are using the term reverse punch to mean the same thing: the punch thrown from the side of the rear foot.

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know who neg-repped you Jeremy, but it was well-deserved in this case. Your post is in poor taste and disrespectful. You may think it's funny, but it keeps the 'us vs. them' mentality going when 'we' are trying hard to have an open, honest and intelligent conversation. Posts like yours are going to do nothing but provoke people and get the thread closed again. Which too be honest, I suspect is the goal of you and two others.

Are you the kettle or the pot in this scenario. You have done more than your fair share of keeping the "us vs. them" conversation going. Bottom line is this...your vision of what old school TKD used to teach is wrong. The way you teach SD is fine and I'm sure there are many people who enjoy it. I for one do see value in what you teach. That still does not change the fact that old school TKD did not teach in the fashion that you listed in a prior posting, nor did that list have anything to do with old school teaching methods of TKD vs modern teaching methods of TKD. If you wanted to compare proper SD training in TKD then by all means start a new thread.

Lastly, you have yet to answer the questions that I have posted several times to even keep an "open minded, intelligent conversation" going. I am still waiting on the answers.

Humor, like porn, is a "I know what it is when I see it". Perhaps my post was not funny, honestly don't care if anyone found it humorous or not. It is how I felt when I posted it. Besides if all my jokes were spot on, I would be doing Leno.

 

[dancingalone]

I think the footwork and timing applied in throwing that punch is what many practitioners, me included, work on sharpening and tweaking.

I don't know enough of the eastern martial arts history of the punch to seriously discuss its earlier analytics, but how one moves their feet and distributes balance has a lot to do with landing it with maximum effect, especially at the solar plexus/trunk (the intended target in WTF sparring). The rotation of the wrist and positioning of knuckles are also key. The footwork I'm speaking of would include throwing the punch from a stationery position at someone coming at you, sliding foward to block and cut distance while throwing the punch, jumping forward (both feet) up as is common with lots of WTF fighters) to hit with a downward angle, and moving sideways to evade and cut distance. And by the way, I hope we are using the term reverse punch to mean the same thing: the punch thrown from the side of the rear foot.

Yes, a reverse punch is a straight thrust punch from the rear hand. I appreciate your thoughts on training it. It's good sound stuff also found in 'traditional' training. The jumping application you mentioned is even expressed formally in Tang Soo Do variations of a hyung/kata called Palsek Dae/Bassai Dai.

Did I pick the wrong technique to ask about to help illustrate the differences between modern and old training methods? From my perspective, any type of quality training, new and old, should include learning how to attack and defense proficiently and this will include footwork, angles, speed/power, and structural/functional integrity.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes, a reverse punch is a straight thrust punch from the rear hand. I appreciate your thoughts on training it. It's good sound stuff also found in 'traditional' training. The jumping application you mentioned is even expressed formally in Tang Soo Do variations of a hyung/kata called Palsek Dae/Bassai Dai.

Did I pick the wrong technique to ask about to help illustrate the differences between modern and old training methods? From my perspective, any type of quality training, new and old, should include learning how to attack and defense proficiently and this will include footwork, angles, speed/power, and structural/functional integrity.

Footwork and stances as well as kicking techniques are a good start to compare training methods. Mst. Cole, puunui and a couple of others who coach constantly on these items could give you some great insights on the differences.

 

[dancingalone]

Footwork and stances as well as kicking techniques are a good start to compare training methods. Mst. Cole, puunui and a couple of others who coach constantly on these items could give you some great insights on the differences.

You have a foot in both camps, don't you, miguksaram? I'd love hearing your thoughts while we wait for someone else to chime in. By the way, I'm learning the KKW style right now and some competition oriented stuff is inevitably also bleeding in, so I have a small inkling of the differences - but I'd like to actually have a substantial discussion here on MT rather than the usual 'my way is the best' stuff we've seen too frequently.

I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes. I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be. I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Are you the kettle or the pot in this scenario. You have done more than your fair share of keeping the "us vs. them" conversation going.

I am neither Jeremy. In this thread, just as in many others, I've provided input without resorting to juvenile humor, sarcasm or shots at other people. I believe several times I have clearly indicated that this isn't an 'us vs. them' scenario. I haven't put down sport training methodology, rather I have demonstrated the differences between it and SD training methodology. Clearly identifying the differences is not putting one over the other.

The way you teach SD is fine and I'm sure there are many people who enjoy it. I for one do see value in what you teach.

Thank you for that.

That still does not change the fact that old school TKD did not teach in the fashion that you listed in a prior posting, nor did that list have anything to do with old school teaching methods of TKD vs modern teaching methods of TKD.

We are in disagreement on this point. While I cannot be responsible for what you've experienced, or not experienced, I can authoritatively comment upon what I've experienced or not experienced.

Lastly, you have yet to answer the questions that I have posted...

And you won't receive any. It results in the thread going off-topic and eventually closed. What happened in this very thread is a prime example. I'm no longer going to entertain this course of action.

Humor, like porn, is a "I know what it is when I see it". Perhaps my post was not funny, honestly don't care if anyone found it humorous or not. It is how I felt when I posted it.

Attitudes such as this lead to the thread going off-topic, falling into the 'us vs. them' mentality or simply being closed. Overall, this is a good thread that has the potential of becoming a great thread. I for one would like to see that happen. Thus from this point forward, I will not respond to you, Glenn (puunui) or Al (mastercole) as I don't consider it worth the effort. Thus I will not be part of the problem. I'll simply use the RTM function if necessary.

 

[Archtkd]

What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.
I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.

But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.

Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.
Manny

Manny/ What are the demographics of people who train at your dojang? Is it predominantly children, youth, adults, or older adults. How many people of your your age , experience and station in life train there? If you have many people interested in more balanced training a the dojang, you could create classes to do that. It seem to be like you've already started doing that.

 

[miguksaram]

Attitudes such as this lead to the thread going off-topic, falling into the 'us vs. them' mentality or simply being closed. Overall, this is a good thread that has the potential of becoming a great thread. I for one would like to see that happen. Thus from this point forward, I will not respond to you, Glenn (puunui) or Al (mastercole) as I don't consider it worth the effort. Thus I will not be part of the problem. I'll simply use the RTM function if necessary.

I'm sure our feelings won't be hurt just as I'm sure you will just run over to your other board and complain over there about how you are treated here by us and they can give you the sympathetic pat on the back you are craving. Nuff said.

 

[RobinTKD]

I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes. I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be. .

This is exactly what I was hoping to get from the thread too, there is obviously a wealth of TKD knowledge and experience on here, it would be good to hear what some of it has to say.

I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.

Just speak to Sensei Gavin Mullholland and his 'old school' Goju fighters currently touring the UK MMA scene very successfully.