R
RyuShiKan
Guest
The Kihei Motobu mentioned in the Black Belt Article isnÂ’t mentioned in the Motobu family tree nor is he mentioned in Motobu Ryu lineage tree.
Okinawa-Te.
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
The Kihei Motobu mentioned in the Black Belt Article isnÂ’t mentioned in the Motobu family tree nor is he mentioned in Motobu Ryu lineage tree.
I did a quick search and found these:
http://quis.qub.ac.uk/seidokan/lineage.html
http://www.usankfva.com/GNline.html
Neither one mentions "Kihei" and I find no listings for "Kihei Motobu" connected to "Motobu Ryu"
Is there an 'official' lineage listed online anywhere?
The following sites refer to "Grand master Kihei Motobu" in relation to Okinawa-Te.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/mar65/okinawate/okinawate.html
http://www.geocities.com/okinawa_te_2000/history.html
http://www.ntsworld.com/okinawa-te/_private/BB1.html
They appear to have the same info however.
One would think that more sites would list the individual who founder or was a Gm in an art.
http://quis.qub.ac.uk/seidokan/lineage.html
http://www.usankfva.com/GNline.html
Neither one mentions "Kihei" and I find no listings for "Kihei Motobu" connected to "Motobu Ryu"
Is there an 'official' lineage listed online anywhere?
The following sites refer to "Grand master Kihei Motobu" in relation to Okinawa-Te.
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1965/mar65/okinawate/okinawate.html
http://www.geocities.com/okinawa_te_2000/history.html
http://www.ntsworld.com/okinawa-te/_private/BB1.html
They appear to have the same info however.
One would think that more sites would list the individual who founder or was a Gm in an art.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
Yes in several books I have as well as on an Official video on Motobu Ryu
Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
One would think that more sites would list the individual who founder or was a Gm in an art.
Sometimes there isn't much info on them if they died before WWII or just after it.
This URL
http://www.usankfva.com/GNline.html
Is Rod Sacharnoski claiming rank from Toma Shian.......I saw the certificate he tried to palm off as Toma's it was totally bogus.
Do a search on E-Budo under Sacharnoski and you will find loads of info.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
I just find it odd to call a martial art "Okinawa XXXX" when there is little or no connection to Okinawa. This Nagusuko seems to be a bit of a mystery man as well.
I have never seen anything that would suggest the kata come from there..........just all seems a bit odd.
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
These are some rather bizarre historical accounts. The likes of which I have never read about nor heard of before.
Could you tell me from what source this info came from?
===Copywritten content removed by request===
The History Of Karate
BY Donald Bohan
Shichi-Dan
Isshin-Ryu Karate-Do
May 5,1978
http://www.bohans-family.com/Dojo/history_of_karate.htm
Could you tell me from what source this info came from?
===Copywritten content removed by request===
The History Of Karate
BY Donald Bohan
Shichi-Dan
Isshin-Ryu Karate-Do
May 5,1978
http://www.bohans-family.com/Dojo/history_of_karate.htm
R
RyuShiKan
Guest
“By means of guerilla warfare, the Okinawans were able to harass the Japanese troops; sue to the distance between Japan and Okinawa, the occupying forces had great difficulty in continuously replacing their materials and their steadily depleting forces. In an effort to strengthen their position and subjugate the Okinawans, the Japanese ordered the confiscation of all metals on the island. This meant all weapons, tools, cutlery, and every source of replacement, including cooking pots and pans. All forges were dismantled and removed. The Okinawans were disarmed; possession of any weapon was forbidden. The Japanese now thought they had eliminated the strength of the opposition and that their task would be considerable easier. It was - but only for a short time.”
ME:
This is really inaccurate.
The Okinawans put up a modicum of resistance.
There was no guerilla warfare, in fact the battle to take the island of Okinawa was a short one. The Okinawan King was carted off to Tokyo (Edo) and made a “guest” of the Shogun.
The weapons ban on Okinawa happened about 100 years prior to the Japnese led invasion. There was no ban on metal cooking utensils or farm tools by the Japanese.
”It was decided that each village would have a community knife which would be kept in an open square attached to a heave anchored chain and which would be guarded by two Japanese soldiers. This plan seemed to prove satisfactory. Since the trouble had apparently ceased, the occupying forces began to relax their guard. “
ME:
This is some of the nonsense that was propagated in much the same way the myth of the Naihanchi kata was invented by peasants.
As for the “Occupying forces” there was a skeleton crew guarding Okinawa.
”But, the Okinawans did not relax. Among the old patriarchs there was discussion of old stories remembered from their youth. Some of their people had been to China and had brought back information and stories about the incredible unarmed fighters in Cathay, who were able to defeat armed and armored opponents with nothing but their hands and feet and occasionally with the use of unusual wooden fighting instruments.”
ME:
These weren’t “old stories”….those same Chinese were living in Okinawa at the time of the invasion.
”After lengthy conferences, the best Okinawan fighters were selected and sent to China to learn the Chinese methods. They were to bring the knowledge home and were given authority to offer high salaries for the importation of teachers. When this was accomplished, the Okinawans began training and started fashioning the wooden instruments. In order to carve them, the trained karate fighters killed the guards and stole the village knives. “
ME:
The above is just plain ridiculous.
“The karate training was kept completely secret and guarded against informers. Anyone suspected of being a traitor was kidnapped at night and taken in a boat with a small pig or goat about a mile offshore. There the animal's throat was slit, and it was thrown overboard. When the sharks arrived, the informer invariably lost his balance and fell into the water. It was an infallible security system.”
ME:
Again, nonsense.
“The centrifugal force sticks ("Nunchaku" and "Tonfa") could smash to pieces military armor and the men wearing it. "Okinawa-Te" (Okinawan hands) became a consuming terror, a psychological trauma which did not end until the advent of modern firearms in the hands of all occupation troops."
ME:
This is right out of a comic book.
ME:
This is really inaccurate.
The Okinawans put up a modicum of resistance.
There was no guerilla warfare, in fact the battle to take the island of Okinawa was a short one. The Okinawan King was carted off to Tokyo (Edo) and made a “guest” of the Shogun.
The weapons ban on Okinawa happened about 100 years prior to the Japnese led invasion. There was no ban on metal cooking utensils or farm tools by the Japanese.
”It was decided that each village would have a community knife which would be kept in an open square attached to a heave anchored chain and which would be guarded by two Japanese soldiers. This plan seemed to prove satisfactory. Since the trouble had apparently ceased, the occupying forces began to relax their guard. “
ME:
This is some of the nonsense that was propagated in much the same way the myth of the Naihanchi kata was invented by peasants.
As for the “Occupying forces” there was a skeleton crew guarding Okinawa.
”But, the Okinawans did not relax. Among the old patriarchs there was discussion of old stories remembered from their youth. Some of their people had been to China and had brought back information and stories about the incredible unarmed fighters in Cathay, who were able to defeat armed and armored opponents with nothing but their hands and feet and occasionally with the use of unusual wooden fighting instruments.”
ME:
These weren’t “old stories”….those same Chinese were living in Okinawa at the time of the invasion.
”After lengthy conferences, the best Okinawan fighters were selected and sent to China to learn the Chinese methods. They were to bring the knowledge home and were given authority to offer high salaries for the importation of teachers. When this was accomplished, the Okinawans began training and started fashioning the wooden instruments. In order to carve them, the trained karate fighters killed the guards and stole the village knives. “
ME:
The above is just plain ridiculous.
“The karate training was kept completely secret and guarded against informers. Anyone suspected of being a traitor was kidnapped at night and taken in a boat with a small pig or goat about a mile offshore. There the animal's throat was slit, and it was thrown overboard. When the sharks arrived, the informer invariably lost his balance and fell into the water. It was an infallible security system.”
ME:
Again, nonsense.
“The centrifugal force sticks ("Nunchaku" and "Tonfa") could smash to pieces military armor and the men wearing it. "Okinawa-Te" (Okinawan hands) became a consuming terror, a psychological trauma which did not end until the advent of modern firearms in the hands of all occupation troops."
ME:
This is right out of a comic book.
No idea. Ask whoever created the site. I believe the site that stuff came from was/is associated with Mike Pecina's group. I have a strong suspicion that info was put up on their own, from whatever goofy sources they had on hand. My mother (who is Okinawan) never told me any stuff like that. <shrug>
Like most other systems, a lot of political crap has infested the organization, to the point where there is no longer a single organization, but many groups trying to grasp control. I think this is why most of the Web sites haven't been updated for some time.
Once it gets political, I'm out. That's one of the reasons I love Ray Dionaldo's FCS so much...one of the key reasons for its existence is the study of the FMA without the political B.S. that runs rampant in quite a few FMA systems.
Cthulhu
Like most other systems, a lot of political crap has infested the organization, to the point where there is no longer a single organization, but many groups trying to grasp control. I think this is why most of the Web sites haven't been updated for some time.
Once it gets political, I'm out. That's one of the reasons I love Ray Dionaldo's FCS so much...one of the key reasons for its existence is the study of the FMA without the political B.S. that runs rampant in quite a few FMA systems.
Cthulhu
Most of this is speculation and possibly word of mouth. As with any history. Okinawa is extremely skewed. The majority of this is not from actual research but from teachers embelishments of possibly history.
Okinawa had many families but no real structure. After the Han invasions many on the island were of Northern Chinese or Southern Chinese decent. Today there is a blend of the three cultures of Mainlanders, Taiwanese, and Japanese mixed in with what is left of the original inhabitants. The language barrier shifted by force in the 1930's and slightly over the 100 year period beforehand. Asian text began to follow the left right flow to match Roman based languages around 1935 with the purchace of more modern publishing systems. Karate was renamed to take the honor away from the Tang dynasty. Okinawa recieved it's new official name. Martial systems that carry the banner of Ryu were distictly different than the "founders" systems who created them. Three main branches of martial art began to flourish: The White Crane modifications, the Southern Shoalin modified systems and some Taiwanese North/South variations. Most of the Ryu systems are based loosely on the White Crane system. It is from the Taiwanese variation that Kempo is believed to evolve with some influences from the White Crane system. Still unsure as of yet. The Han invasion as well as the Greek empire really complicated the tracing of influence.
Okinawa had many families but no real structure. After the Han invasions many on the island were of Northern Chinese or Southern Chinese decent. Today there is a blend of the three cultures of Mainlanders, Taiwanese, and Japanese mixed in with what is left of the original inhabitants. The language barrier shifted by force in the 1930's and slightly over the 100 year period beforehand. Asian text began to follow the left right flow to match Roman based languages around 1935 with the purchace of more modern publishing systems. Karate was renamed to take the honor away from the Tang dynasty. Okinawa recieved it's new official name. Martial systems that carry the banner of Ryu were distictly different than the "founders" systems who created them. Three main branches of martial art began to flourish: The White Crane modifications, the Southern Shoalin modified systems and some Taiwanese North/South variations. Most of the Ryu systems are based loosely on the White Crane system. It is from the Taiwanese variation that Kempo is believed to evolve with some influences from the White Crane system. Still unsure as of yet. The Han invasion as well as the Greek empire really complicated the tracing of influence.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Handgrape said:
Handgrape said:
Since this is your first post I feel kind of bad ripping it apart like thisÂ…Â….
1. Actually most of what you have written in your post follows those same lines. There is much about Okinawan history written by various Japanese/ Okinawa Profs.
2. Totally wrong. Okinawa had a very structured class system.
3. Han invasion??? When was that? Please supply your source for this information.
4. Asian text began to go from right to left after the GHQ cut the size and complexity of the language. However, magazines, book and newpapers still print from top to bottom, R to L and L to RÂ…Â….
5. KarateÂ’s kanji were changed due to the soon to be war with China.
6. I have read several articles on this but I would like to hear you version in more detail before I comment.
7. ThatÂ’s nonsense.
8. Again, nonsense.
9. What????
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
There was this song in the 80s by the Thompson Twins Called "Lies". The chorus went something like "lies, lies, lies yeah-eah, they're gonna get you, lies, lies, lies yeah-eah, they won't forget you"! It wasn't a good song, but the lyrics seemed apprapeau.
Didn't this Doversola guy, who by the way looked like a cheap rip-off of Ron Jeremy, have kata called the "Gorilla Form" and the "Dung Beetle Kata Number one"?
Plastic.
Didn't this Doversola guy, who by the way looked like a cheap rip-off of Ron Jeremy, have kata called the "Gorilla Form" and the "Dung Beetle Kata Number one"?
Plastic.
Ostensibly the repetition of three's in the martial kata's were intended to be symbolic of the 3 invasions/retreats during the Han invasion of China and Taiwan. The Hagga, the Southern Kingdom, Taiwan (or the East Coast) depending on your perspective. It is believed in the 1602 retreat warriors/monks fled to Taiwan and in 1622(?) some retreated again to the islands between Okinawa and Taiwan which eventually led to sharing from the southern kingdom as well as what was happening in Taiwan.
Robert,
Where do you get your information> You think it's nonsense that Goju, Wado, Isshin and specifically Uechi most definatly is Fukien White Crane kung fu? We were however discussing Okinawa-te and I don't believe you are the authority here. If you don't even know about the White Crane influence you might need to go back to Okinawan Ryu history 101.
Where do you get your information> You think it's nonsense that Goju, Wado, Isshin and specifically Uechi most definatly is Fukien White Crane kung fu? We were however discussing Okinawa-te and I don't believe you are the authority here. If you don't even know about the White Crane influence you might need to go back to Okinawan Ryu history 101.
Right to left writing as in "SIHT" vs. "THIS" was prominent especially in Uchina until it was changed to L-R. we are talking about Horizontal text. before 1930 and the Japanese influence any book from before that would read backwards from modern printing. So it would say Te Kara or Di Tou vs. Kara Te and Tou Di. So the lies people promote are easily tracible through this shift. Your history is skewed by the Japanese, Robert. You are the nonsense. gokigenyo
One fister,
I can only guess what you do with it. Naming Ron Jeremy in your post helps me guess. If your question is half honest, then no there is no beetle form unless you study one. There are many ape forms in kung fu and silat. This would be more of a study in intent, breathing and hypnosis. But there is no kata in the body of Okinawa-te called those. If some guy would come in asking for it Gordon could definately show you something you thought was a beetle form although he might pick up a guitar and microphone.
Ron Jeremy? Uh? he's Hawaiian? Lest we forget what Jim Kelly would reply to your comments or even Joe Lewis or Bob Wall? All I can say is for the many who thought he was full of it, they either never spent more than 5 minutes with the guy or they realized the hard way that he was the most infuencial martial, albeit unknown, genius in American Martial history. Ed Parker looked up to him. So did Tetsumo Oshima. In fact only you seem to think he is full of crap. The most ripped off guy in martial history and you think it's funny to say he resembles a guy half his age? I think he would be proud. Al Thomas, David German and Sonny Gascon. I drop these names for the real martial artist do a search so they can flame you Mr. One Fist.
I can only guess what you do with it. Naming Ron Jeremy in your post helps me guess. If your question is half honest, then no there is no beetle form unless you study one. There are many ape forms in kung fu and silat. This would be more of a study in intent, breathing and hypnosis. But there is no kata in the body of Okinawa-te called those. If some guy would come in asking for it Gordon could definately show you something you thought was a beetle form although he might pick up a guitar and microphone.
Ron Jeremy? Uh? he's Hawaiian? Lest we forget what Jim Kelly would reply to your comments or even Joe Lewis or Bob Wall? All I can say is for the many who thought he was full of it, they either never spent more than 5 minutes with the guy or they realized the hard way that he was the most infuencial martial, albeit unknown, genius in American Martial history. Ed Parker looked up to him. So did Tetsumo Oshima. In fact only you seem to think he is full of crap. The most ripped off guy in martial history and you think it's funny to say he resembles a guy half his age? I think he would be proud. Al Thomas, David German and Sonny Gascon. I drop these names for the real martial artist do a search so they can flame you Mr. One Fist.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Handgrape said:
Goju and Uechi only recently came from China......Wado on the other hand was developed in Japan by a man named Ohtsuka based on what he had learned from several Okinawans. Basically Okinawan karate with a Japanese twist.
What I would like to know is which kata in karate do you think are white crane kung fu kata.......
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Handgrape said:
2. There are several books you should read about Okinawan society, one is written by George Kerr, the other was written by a friend of mine named Patrick McCarthy. There are more but those you get you started.
3. I ask you for more information and you respond with insults and slurs. Which shows me you have no proof of any “Han invasion” of Okinawa.
4. I have been to many museums and rare book stores in Japan and Okinawa.
5. I base my point not only on research done by non-Japanese but also on direct conversations with Okinawans. WhatÂ’s yours based on?
6. Okinawa was a tributary state to China up until the late 19th centuryÂ…..again you need to bone up on your history.
7. Before Motobu’s day and before it karateka often practiced only 1 maybe 2 kata….these would often call their style whatever kata they practiced, for example if one practiced Naihanchi kata the did “Naihanchi” style. It wasn’t until people started being more open and learning more and more kata that they actually started to use Shurite Nahate etc….This info came from Motobu’s book….I suggest you read it.
8. Prove it.
I have to say, after reading your comments I have come to the conclusion that 1) you are really misinformed or 2) just hear to troll or 3) a combination of both.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Just a bit of history:
===Copywritten content removed by request===
Selected References===Copywritten content removed by request===
Farkas, Emil & Corcoran, John (1983), The Dictionary of Martial Arts, Overlook, New York
Frederic, Lois (1991), A Dictionary of the Martial Arts, Tuttle, Vermont
Funakoshi, Gichin (1935), Karate-Do Kyohan, Kobundo Book Company, Tokyo
Funakoshi, Gichin (1975), Karate-Do: My Way of Life, Kodansha International, Tokyo
Hassell, R.G. (1984), Shotokan Karate: Its History and Tradition, Focus Publications
Higaonna, Morio (1987), Traditional Karate-Do-Okinawa Goju Ryu, Volume l, Minto Research an Publishing, Tokyo
Maliszewski, Michael (1992), Meditative-Religious Traditions of FightingArts & Martial Ways, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Nagamine, Shoshin (1976), The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Tuttle, Tokyo
Nakaya, Takao (1986), Karate-Do History and Philosophy, JSS Publishing, Texas
Reid, Howard & Croucher, Michael (1991), The Way of the Warrior, The Overlook Press, New York
Spiessbach, Michael (1992), Bodhidharma: Meditating Monk Martial Arts Master or Make Believe?, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 4, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Wingate, Carrie (1993), Exploring Our Roots: Historical and Cultural Foundations of the Ideology of Karate- Do, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 2, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Wong, James (1978), A source book in the Chinese martial arts: History, philosophy, systems and styles: vol. 1, Koinonia Productions, Stockton, California
Frederic, Lois (1991), A Dictionary of the Martial Arts, Tuttle, Vermont
Funakoshi, Gichin (1935), Karate-Do Kyohan, Kobundo Book Company, Tokyo
Funakoshi, Gichin (1975), Karate-Do: My Way of Life, Kodansha International, Tokyo
Hassell, R.G. (1984), Shotokan Karate: Its History and Tradition, Focus Publications
Higaonna, Morio (1987), Traditional Karate-Do-Okinawa Goju Ryu, Volume l, Minto Research an Publishing, Tokyo
Maliszewski, Michael (1992), Meditative-Religious Traditions of FightingArts & Martial Ways, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Nagamine, Shoshin (1976), The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do, Tuttle, Tokyo
Nakaya, Takao (1986), Karate-Do History and Philosophy, JSS Publishing, Texas
Reid, Howard & Croucher, Michael (1991), The Way of the Warrior, The Overlook Press, New York
Spiessbach, Michael (1992), Bodhidharma: Meditating Monk Martial Arts Master or Make Believe?, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 1, Number 4, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Wingate, Carrie (1993), Exploring Our Roots: Historical and Cultural Foundations of the Ideology of Karate- Do, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 2, Number 3, Via Media Publishing Company, Erie Pennsylvania
Wong, James (1978), A source book in the Chinese martial arts: History, philosophy, systems and styles: vol. 1, Koinonia Productions, Stockton, California
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
You're joking right? That guy was a farce just like your name Hand-g-Rape. WTF is a Handgrape anyway?Handgrape said:
Look Ippon Ken, Mr. Okinawe-Te, is a one POINT punch, meaning a one-knuckle punch or "phoenix-eye fist". Shouldn't you have learned this tech and term in a style that supposedly is inspired by Choki Motobu's teachings? Huh?! It was one of his favorite techniques you genius!
There IS Okinawan Te. It comprises the styles which came from the various villages- Shuri, Naha and Tomari. It's a generic term for the indigenous fighting arts of Okinawa. If your so-called founder really understood Okinawan karate he would have taught you this and the CORRECT history of Ti.
So all I can say is shut your trap before you put your foot so far down your throat that you decide to make up a "Ashi Kata Ichiban", you idiot. I know you've been lied to, but why not just fess up and admit you do BS Okinawan or whatever "karate" it is?
The evidence and the teachers that know real "Okinawa Te" are against you. Go to Okinawa and ask around. You'll find NO ONE who can corraborate your claims or legitimize your style. You'll find NO kata that are the forms you learn in "Okinawa Te". Who cares what a Shotokan stylist or Bob Wall says about Doversola. What Okinawan ryuha do they know?!!! Joe Lewis said this guy was legit? I can't believe it and so what if he did. Joe Lewis didn't even see the effectiveness of the Shorin Ryu he learned so he made jiyu kumite for the masses (kickboxing) after 2 years of training! I still doubt he said anything positive about this scheister.
BTW the beetle comment was a joke. Yeah you know, like your style. Genius!
