OC Spray

[Cruentus]

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I know...it's just sort of funny when that happens. It always makes you wonder!

If YOU are the goal that is correct (murder / Rape / Kidnapping) however what about theft? Burglery?

Exactly. Like I had said before, not every attacker is so determined or "amped up" that they are going to want to deal with OC, or chasing someone down after being sprayed.

Most criminals are very lazy and want easy prey.

 

[Infinite]

Exactly. Like I had said before, not every attacker is so determined or "amped up" that they are going to want to deal with OC, or chasing someone down after being sprayed.

Most criminals are very lazy and want easy prey.

True enough it might not have been missleading I just might have been leading it somewhere it wasn't intended to go

*** U Me and all that.

 

[shesulsa]

All good points on OC.

I think the best citizen self-defense application of OC spray would be against the "friendly" criminal. You know the one ... s/he approaches and tries to goad you into going somewhere or giving them something, or perhaps it's a recent ex-significant other harrassing you. If someone will not let you pass, that is kidnapping. Good against a talker, I think.

I'd also agree that if you're in some sort of swift ambulatory motion (like you can predict when this will happen, but okay, and true enough) the misters would do well. I'd rather the stream with dye as well, and more than 1 oz.

But there are many people for whom OC spray would only open up the sinuses and bronchii and serve to piss off the recipient. Adrenaline dump is not what you want to give them, especially within arm's reach.

 

[Drac]

Adrenaline dump is not what you want to give them, especially within arm's reach.

Great point to remember....

 

[Infinite]

AIf someone will not let you pass, that is kidnapping. Good against a talker, I think.

Sorry just a side note not allowing someone to leave a place where they have willingly gone is not kidnapping. Of course now that I write this I can't recall what the legal term is for this...

I want to say its wrongful improsnment but that may not fit the bill. Any LEO's want to remind me what that is called?

 

[tellner]

You don't have to be on drugs or in the throes of berserkergang to push through the effects of OC. Just "motivated and goal-oriented' is enough as the thousands of individual experiments have shown. Another thing to consider is that violent criminals are more likely than you and I to have been hosed down by arresting officers or corrections officers. They know what to expect. They are at least a little used to it. That gives them an advantage dealing with the effects.

 

[shesulsa]

Sorry just a side note not allowing someone to leave a place where they have willingly gone is not kidnapping. Of course now that I write this I can't recall what the legal term is for this...

I want to say its wrongful improsnment but that may not fit the bill. Any LEO's want to remind me what that is called?

Unlawful detainment?

 

[Infinite]

Unlawful detainment?

False imprisonment or forced captivity in california.

 

[shesulsa]

False imprisonment or forced captivity in california.

That's it. Couldn't pull it out, so I joked. Thanks!

 

[Cruentus]

All good points to think about.

I think that they key worth repeating is, as was mentioned by Tellner, myself, and others earlier, is that there is no magic totem to get you out of a "fight" once you are in one. OC may assist you, but if you can't readily escape, you will still have a "fight" on your hands. You aren't going to spray someone, and they are going to yell "Owee!" and cover their face, and the fight will be over.

Statistically, data shows that OC has been proven as a whole to be helpful to officers and people trying to handle a violent situation. Anecdotally, there are enough cases of OC failing to work to warrent concern for those who carry it.

Yes, it may be true that anecdotally, OC may cause someone to increase the level of violence (through adrenaline, or anger, etc.). I don't buy the argument proposed by some that one shouldn't carry OC due to this possibility. That is akin to saying "Don't fight back your rapist because he could get angry and assault you more or in a worse way." This is a victims mentality that is insufficient and inherently flawed.

So, I think the main thing to remember is that if one carries OC, then it needs to be used IN CONJUNCTION with another tactic (escape, fighting, etc.). OC is something that will assist you in achieving your goal, but it is not the means that will allow you to reach that goal. Too often people think of OC in one irrational extreme or another; either believing that a .5 Oz. pocket keychain is going to make the attacker drop to his knees in a choking fit, or believing because anecdotally it didn't work in a few cases (15% according to stats) and because there was still some struggle when it did, that the tool is completely useless. Neither extreme is reasonable or true.

Reasonably, one has to realize that once one is "in" a fight, one "has" to fight; and no tool, OC or otherwise, will change that. This is why we need training, and mainly the tools to stay out of the "fight" in the first place.

What I would still like to see (as I'll mention again) is how the use of OC (with proper tactics) fairs for the person trying to escape an attack. There is anecdotal evidence of OC being very helpful for one trying to escape, but I would like to see some clinical trials. To date, we don't have data that I know of regarding this...

 

[pankration]

I don't know if there are any other people reading this thread from Canada but quite frankly I'm a little dismayed by the posts advocating carrying a gun or knife for self-defense. I know that the US has a reputation for violence but as a frequent visitor to the states (I also attended university there) I have not seen or experienced this supposed lawlessness. Crime is everywhere but it is not as prevalent as people make it out to be particularly in the US. Are some of the writers here living in especially dangerous cities? Is carrying a handgun for a law-abiding citizen the norm? I'm not comfortable with an armed citizenry, even mace is probably not needed; at least that's my perception. I might be naive, stupid or getting old but it seems to me that a decent level of fitness, some truly applicable martial arts moves and a positive, confident self-image should keep most people from being preyed on. Your thoughts? Remember this is a martial arts site, not a branch club of the NRA.

And finally, I'm still not 100% sure the bear spray will work on a bear. I hope I never have to prove it one way or another.

 

[tellner]

Not many people carry a knife or gun for self defense. And most of the ones who do just wind up lugging it around for their whole lives without ever using it. Even the majority of police officers never fire a shot except on the range. But there are bad people out there. And there are dangerous situations. A knife or gun is only useful in a very few circumstances. When it is, nothing else will do. And the smaller, weaker or less physically fit you are the worse it is. Something which might not be a deadly force situation for you or me is for a 50 kilo woman.

Think of one of these tools as a fire extinguisher or smoke alarm. It's a highly specialized piece of safety equipment useful for only one or two things. You will probably never need one. It sits there and takes up space. It needs maintenance. But that one time makes it all worthwhile. Through combinations of bad luck and poor planning I've had that "one time" more than once. So I carry a pistol from time to time. And I've grown so used to having a knife around since I was thirteen or fourteen that I feel undressed without one.

 

[Drac]

Unlawful detainment?

Ya beat me to it...That's it..

 

[MJS]

I think that we need to use a little bit of logic here rather then being on different sides of an extreme.

Not every person that would commit an assault or violent crime is the infamous "pumped up violent criminal on drugs" of which tazers and OC would have no effect. These people do exist, but make up a small percentage of attackers.

For most attackers, less-lethal force tools will hinder their ability to do harm. But of course, none of these are the catch all. One has to expect that once the fight breaks off, that one has a fight on his/her hands, regardless of what tool is used in assistance.

My appologies for neglecting this thread. I started it, so I should be contributing as well.

Anyway...I agree with the above comments. On the flip side, we hear the same thing about empty hand training. Comments such as, "Well, if it doesn't work in the ring, it aint gonna work on the street." Sorry, but just like every bad guy isn't going to be a MMA champ, every bad guy isn't going to be 'on something.' Not saying it isn't possible, but we need to be a bit realistic.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Perhaps something else that can be discussed is, how easily accessable is the OC going to be? A LEO carries this on their belt, so its pretty much within arms reach. Unless its carried on a keychain, is someone going to have time to dig thru their pockets, purse, etc.?

Mike

 

[Drac]

Unless its carried on a keychain, is someone going to have time to dig thru their pockets, purse, etc.?

Mike

The problem with keychain canisters Mike is they always put it on the ring with their car keys and IF they should need it the key is in the door OR it's facing downward so they have to fumble with the keyring to use it..Not good..

 

[MJS]

The problem with keychain canisters Mike is they always put it on the ring with their car keys and IF they should need it the key is in the door OR it's facing downward so they have to fumble with the keyring to use it..Not good..

Ahh..I didn't think about that. Good points!

Mike

 

[Drac]

Ahh..I didn't think about that. Good points!

Mike

No bigger..It's us to us (instructors) to re-educate people how to modify daily routines to make them safer..Such is the condidtion of the world we live in...

 

[Cruentus]

I don't know if there are any other people reading this thread from Canada but quite frankly I'm a little dismayed by the posts advocating carrying a gun or knife for self-defense. I know that the US has a reputation for violence but as a frequent visitor to the states (I also attended university there) I have not seen or experienced this supposed lawlessness. Crime is everywhere but it is not as prevalent as people make it out to be particularly in the US. Are some of the writers here living in especially dangerous cities? Is carrying a handgun for a law-abiding citizen the norm? I'm not comfortable with an armed citizenry, even mace is probably not needed; at least that's my perception. I might be naive, stupid or getting old but it seems to me that a decent level of fitness, some truly applicable martial arts moves and a positive, confident self-image should keep most people from being preyed on. Your thoughts? Remember this is a martial arts site, not a branch club of the NRA.

And finally, I'm still not 100% sure the bear spray will work on a bear. I hope I never have to prove it one way or another.

I think that if I answer this post, we will derail the thread from OC Spray to usefulness of weapons carry, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

But one of your fellow Canadians posted a similar question here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44469

That would be a more on-topic place to discuss your comments, I would think.

 

[LawDog]

I too used to be an instructor for the use of mace, tear gas etc for bith law enforcement and at civilian cources. Everyone on this thread has expressed very valid points about the use of an "airborne" self defense system. I will give my views which are the smae as most of you.
Positive Side:
*Can slow an attacker down,
*Can be used while attempting to run away,
*Non-Lethal,
*Can be concealed,
*No noise level, many timid people won't use a loud weapon,

Negitive Side:
*Cold weather, pepper spay is immersed in a solution, it must vaporize to relase the pepper properly,
*Attacker on drugs, will not feel the effect,
* Carried correctly-
A-Can't get to/find the container,
B-Not carried so you know which way the nozzel is pointing.

Expiration dates of oc/pepper very seldom checked, they should be check every on a regular basis.
Most users, when /if they can, should use their arm or hand to cover their own face area when using, they could be down wind or in a cross wind. Even in a building, vent. systems, AC units etc. can cause a wind effect.
Most victims will tell attacker that they have mace before it is even out, they should just take it out. Only point it at the attacker when he gets into range of the mist. If you point it to soon he will change his attack mode, probably by covering his own face with his shirt/jacket etc.
This is just some of my experience with the "airbourne" stuff.