Cruentus
Grandmaster
sgtmac_46 said:
Wow! thats nuts...I never heard of that! I wouldn't think anyone would view at a bear repellant, but I guess if you just don't know....
OC Sprays
- Thread starter sgtmac_46
- Start date
Wow! thats nuts...I never heard of that! I wouldn't think anyone would view at a bear repellant, but I guess if you just don't know....
KenpoTex
Senior Master
:roflmao: that's hilarious..."see honey, this stuff is like 'Off' for bears"sgtmac_46 said:
P
Peter Steeves
Guest
I've made it a point to spray myself once every few months, and then do some training (punch, kick, roll, etc). It is not something I really think is a lot of fun, but it's not all that bad, really. The first time was the worst, but more from the anticipation/not-knowing than the discomfort of the chemical. I will say it would definately distract me severely in an altercation had I never been exposed to it at all.
I don't require this of any of my martial arts students, but I do bring it up in conversation.
Also, I carry versions of it all over the place, where appropriate. I even have a key-chain type clipped onto my dog's leash, so that the "handle" during a walk around the block is actually pepper spray. You can't help but have it in your hand that way!
I don't require this of any of my martial arts students, but I do bring it up in conversation.
Also, I carry versions of it all over the place, where appropriate. I even have a key-chain type clipped onto my dog's leash, so that the "handle" during a walk around the block is actually pepper spray. You can't help but have it in your hand that way!
Shaolinwind
2nd Black Belt
We keep some in the car, and Samantha keeps some in her purse. After reading about events where pepper spray failed to fully deter an assailant I bought her a compact stun gun to go with it.. The idea being to blind the sucker then shock him into full submission if he decides to start swinging fists.sgtmac_46 said:
Shaolinwind
2nd Black Belt
LMAO! That would most CERTAINLY deter further attack.Tgace said:
dearnis.com
Master Black Belt
There were some cases of alcohol-based propellant OC + taser a few years back....bad from liability viewpoint....yet somehow...never mind.
As "spray day" approached in the academy one of my buddies kept telling me how interetsed he was in seeing me get hit. His theory... "you love spicy food, you put tabasco and other stuff on everything; I bet it wont bother you." Do NOT buy this line of thinking unless you regularly spice your eyeballs.
The stuff works sometimes, not others. As noted above, application is often too little too late.
As "spray day" approached in the academy one of my buddies kept telling me how interetsed he was in seeing me get hit. His theory... "you love spicy food, you put tabasco and other stuff on everything; I bet it wont bother you." Do NOT buy this line of thinking unless you regularly spice your eyeballs.
The stuff works sometimes, not others. As noted above, application is often too little too late.
OP
sgtmac_46
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It might be worth noting, when investing in an OC Spray product, do some research.
First thing to look at is the reliability of the product, foremost. The leading way to measure the effectiveness of OC Spray is not the Percentage, but the SHU's (Scoville Heat Units). This is a system that's been used to evalute the heat of peppers for years, and it's commonly applied to OC Sprays. The higher the number, the hotter the product. This is a general rule, and there is some controversy over SHU's, but as a general rule, it seems to pretty reasonably equate to the degree of "heat" present in OC. If your OC product does not rate it's SHU's on the can, this might cause some concern about the nature of the product.
An SHU of 2,000,000 would be the least I would carry. One of the most popular brands of law enforcement pepper spray going, First Defense, markets their product at 500,000 SHU, which is extremely mild. They brag that it is food grade pepper, a fact that I can personally attest too as i've eaten it before.
Don't let the idea that lots and lots of police agencies carry it be a selling point. I personally believe that First Defense has a good marketing program aimed at administrators, but that's another story. This product, it has been my experience, is only 60% effective in the field. As evidence that i'm not just talking out of my rear about this number, take this study http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/oc_strength/firstdefense.html
I've personally had suspects who have been sprayed by this product TELL me the next day (after they sobered up) that it was a liability as it had no appreciable effect. This has resulted in officers being injured because the product did not work as advertised. It is apparent that First Defense has become aware of the short coming of their product, as they have now unvieled a "hotter" brand of their product. Lets hope it's hotter than the first one. If so, the new First Defense product may be a useful contribution to the OC selection.
So, in short, any product 2,000,000 SHU or above is a good start.
I personally carry Fox Labs OC, which has an SHU rating of 5,300,000. I have never had this product fail, and it has the most impressive performance of any OC product i've tested and used. I'd rate the reliability of Fox Labs OC in the field as greater than 90%. Also, if you order directly from Fox Labs, you'll probably deal directly with the owner, who's more than willing to discuss, at length, any issues about his product. You don't find that kind of customer service anywhere. Fox Labs costs a little more than most other products, but it works when you need it.
Other excellent OC Sprays are Zarc, Cap-Stun, Punch, Freeze, Body Guard, and a few others.
There are also a new class of Defense Sprays out, which aren't technically OC, but synthetics. Two examples being PepperBall Brand OC, which utilizes a product called PAVA (Capsaicin II), and a Zarc product called VEXOR, which boasts an extraordinary SHU rating of 15,000,000 SHU! Again, though, these two products are relatively new on the scene, so my department has decided to take a wait and see approach to utilizing them. A neighboring department, however, has claimed extremely favorable performance from the VEXOR product (keep in mind, however, it replaced their long used First Defense stockpiles).
The other considerations when buying an OC product are type of spray (Stream, Cone, Mist/Fog,Foam), this will be dictated by the environment it's likely to be utilized in. If it will likely be outdoors, then the only choice is stream, as the other products are more susceptible to wind conditions.
In addition, size of the container will be a factor. This will be determined by type of carry (key chain, versus purse, versus pouch/duty gear,home use). Key chain size containers are fine if that's all you can carry. I have found that keychain applicators are unreliable. I profer at least Mark III sizes or larger. If home defense is the issue, a fire extinquisher size is PERFECT for hosing down the guy trying to steal your car.
Finally, reliability of the applicator. Some products are more reliable than others.
Hope this is helpful to someone. It represents several years of my experience dealing with these products. It is only my opinion on the matter, so take it for what's it worth.
As a final note, in reference to alcohol based propellents, I believe that it had been removed from nearly all human use solutions of OC. You may still find it occassionally in solutions dedicated toward animal use. The best way of determining if your OC is flammable is to spray it and light it. If it will put out a flame, it's electronic restraint safe.
First thing to look at is the reliability of the product, foremost. The leading way to measure the effectiveness of OC Spray is not the Percentage, but the SHU's (Scoville Heat Units). This is a system that's been used to evalute the heat of peppers for years, and it's commonly applied to OC Sprays. The higher the number, the hotter the product. This is a general rule, and there is some controversy over SHU's, but as a general rule, it seems to pretty reasonably equate to the degree of "heat" present in OC. If your OC product does not rate it's SHU's on the can, this might cause some concern about the nature of the product.
An SHU of 2,000,000 would be the least I would carry. One of the most popular brands of law enforcement pepper spray going, First Defense, markets their product at 500,000 SHU, which is extremely mild. They brag that it is food grade pepper, a fact that I can personally attest too as i've eaten it before.
Don't let the idea that lots and lots of police agencies carry it be a selling point. I personally believe that First Defense has a good marketing program aimed at administrators, but that's another story. This product, it has been my experience, is only 60% effective in the field. As evidence that i'm not just talking out of my rear about this number, take this study http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/oc_strength/firstdefense.html
I've personally had suspects who have been sprayed by this product TELL me the next day (after they sobered up) that it was a liability as it had no appreciable effect. This has resulted in officers being injured because the product did not work as advertised. It is apparent that First Defense has become aware of the short coming of their product, as they have now unvieled a "hotter" brand of their product. Lets hope it's hotter than the first one. If so, the new First Defense product may be a useful contribution to the OC selection.
So, in short, any product 2,000,000 SHU or above is a good start.
I personally carry Fox Labs OC, which has an SHU rating of 5,300,000. I have never had this product fail, and it has the most impressive performance of any OC product i've tested and used. I'd rate the reliability of Fox Labs OC in the field as greater than 90%. Also, if you order directly from Fox Labs, you'll probably deal directly with the owner, who's more than willing to discuss, at length, any issues about his product. You don't find that kind of customer service anywhere. Fox Labs costs a little more than most other products, but it works when you need it.
Other excellent OC Sprays are Zarc, Cap-Stun, Punch, Freeze, Body Guard, and a few others.
There are also a new class of Defense Sprays out, which aren't technically OC, but synthetics. Two examples being PepperBall Brand OC, which utilizes a product called PAVA (Capsaicin II), and a Zarc product called VEXOR, which boasts an extraordinary SHU rating of 15,000,000 SHU! Again, though, these two products are relatively new on the scene, so my department has decided to take a wait and see approach to utilizing them. A neighboring department, however, has claimed extremely favorable performance from the VEXOR product (keep in mind, however, it replaced their long used First Defense stockpiles).
The other considerations when buying an OC product are type of spray (Stream, Cone, Mist/Fog,Foam), this will be dictated by the environment it's likely to be utilized in. If it will likely be outdoors, then the only choice is stream, as the other products are more susceptible to wind conditions.
In addition, size of the container will be a factor. This will be determined by type of carry (key chain, versus purse, versus pouch/duty gear,home use). Key chain size containers are fine if that's all you can carry. I have found that keychain applicators are unreliable. I profer at least Mark III sizes or larger. If home defense is the issue, a fire extinquisher size is PERFECT for hosing down the guy trying to steal your car.
Finally, reliability of the applicator. Some products are more reliable than others.
Hope this is helpful to someone. It represents several years of my experience dealing with these products. It is only my opinion on the matter, so take it for what's it worth.
As a final note, in reference to alcohol based propellents, I believe that it had been removed from nearly all human use solutions of OC. You may still find it occassionally in solutions dedicated toward animal use. The best way of determining if your OC is flammable is to spray it and light it. If it will put out a flame, it's electronic restraint safe.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Nice post, SGT Mac. Very informative.
I carry Fox Labs OC as well - that stuff is made right here in Michigan, you know! :ultracool
I carry Fox Labs OC as well - that stuff is made right here in Michigan, you know! :ultracool
OP
sgtmac_46
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I'm always impressed when you call the company number, and the owner answers the phone. He'll talk to you for hours about his product, he really believes in it. It reminds me of the owner of Second Chance body armor back in the old days when he used to go around shooting himself in the vest.Tulisan said:
I get OCed and gassed two weeks from today. Half my class got it today, while the other half qualified on our range so I go some idea as to how they do it. For the OC, we get a good face full, then have to draw and extend our asp and deliver twenty strikes to a wavemaster, give it twenty kicks and then be able to draw down on a suspect. For the gas, we go into our gas house in riot gear while rioters pelt us with tennis balls and the like, there is more to the gas scenario but I didn't get the details. I'll post how it goes.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Soundes like the makings of a reality show
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Tgace said:Eh..dont sweat it...it only sucks!
Yea...literally don't sweat it....cause even after your cleaned up, you sweat, pores open, and there goes the effects all over again!
OP
sgtmac_46
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That's why, if i'm getting sprayed, I try and schedule the class in the winter. Nothing like pepper spray to make standing in a 20 mph wind at 20 degrees feel GOOD!!!Tulisan said:Yea...literally don't sweat it....cause even after your cleaned up, you sweat, pores open, and there goes the effects all over again!
J
jkdhit
Guest
the only spray i've ever used was sabre military grade tear gas. i also make sure my girlfriend always carries one with her because she lives in a pretty bad neighborhood. i test her and my can every month just to make sure it's still releasing properly, i just ordered new cans just in case we're low on spray from all the testing. i've used it once because sometimes you're just too drained or want to resolve a street conflict with less danger to yourself. the spray is pretty strong, even once your spray it, you can smell it in the air and there's a light scent on your hands. the spray worked very well the one time i actually used it, the guy dropped and was down instantaneously.
the only problem is some people have the misconception that expired sprays are more potent when the expiration date is actually a date for the compression, not the actual chemicals.
the only problem is some people have the misconception that expired sprays are more potent when the expiration date is actually a date for the compression, not the actual chemicals.
Franc0
Purple Belt
sgtmac, earlier you made a brief reference to "Pepper Foam". Awhile back I saw a demo of some on a dummy. From what I saw it was supposed to be much harder to neutralize due to the stickiness of the foam. Personally I thought it looked like cool method. Whats your take on pepper foam?
Franco
Franco
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sgtmac_46
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There are actually three kinds of OC Sprays, they are Streams, Foggers and Foam.masterfinger said:
It's been my experience with Foam sprays that, just like the other two, it has pluses and minuses.
Pluses:
1. It sticks to everything and forms a large coating on the face, thereby making it even more difficult to see.
2. Trying to wipe it off, wipes it in further.
3. It melts and streams, therefore being useful against someone wearing glasses or other eye protection (it will stream in to the eyes when sprayed at the forehead.
Minuses:
1. It can be carried by the wind more readily (and hence, back toward you given the right wind conditions)
2. It can be purposely wiped off and thrown (i've heard of this happening with suspects but i've never personally seen it.)
In short, I have found the PepperFoam to be good if in a controlled environment (i.e. prisons, jails, stores, or anywhere else in-doors away from wind conditions). The reason is based on PepperFoam's delivery system which is very similar to a fogger in that there is a cone, instead of a single stream.
Of course that having been said, wind conditions are the bane of all OC Sprays.
I have personally been sprayed with streams and foggers. I have not personally had the opportunity to be sprayed with a foam, but when I do i'll let the forum know if there are any noticeable differences in the effects of the three.
I can say that, between foggers and streams, foggers have been more effective in shutting down my ability to see, due largely to the fact that the mist allows more of the product to reach and saturate both of my eyes. This having been said, I still carry the stream due to it's increased range and resistance to wind conditions.
Hope this helps.
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