OC Sprays

[jkdhit]

for me, i like sabre a lot. it's extremely potent, you don't even have to spray them in their eyes. a spray to the face is strong enough to immbolize anyone

i like streams the most. even if there's a wind, the stream is strong enough to not get blown away as easily

 

[redfang]

Well today was the day and it sucked! After an exciting day of crowd control practicals, including breaking up an unruly group of firemen who were throwing tennis balls and other painful but not too harmful objects, I got a taste of both CS gas and OC spray. The CS wasn't too fun. It was a hot, sweaty day so my whole body pretty much felt like it was on fire. But still, it wasn't bad at all compared to the OC. The exersize went like this: We closed our eyes and got a one second burst across the eyes and forehead. Then we had to open our eyes. We then had to run about 25 yards and deliver 10 left knee strikes and 10 right knee strikes to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew and extended our asp and delivered 10 strikes from both sides to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew (red guns were used for this.) on a surly defensive tactics instructor and had to get him on the ground. Not easy as he didn't want to go easy. So we had to keep our eyes open and on him for a good minute or so, giving strong verbal commands, avaiding having him get to close and taking our weapon etc until he complied. Then and only then were we able to go and suffer through decon. Some doctors from Wake Forest were doing a study so half our class decontaminated with water only and the other half used baby shampoo and water. I got to use baby shampoo, but I don't think it helped all that much. Here, five hours after getting sprayed my eyes are still somewhat irritated. I was pretty useless for about 45 min and wasn't really up to driving for 90 min. The stuff works. Out of our class of 38 only one person showed any real resistance to the spray.

 

[Cruentus]

Tough to do...but that sounds like good training! good job...

Paul :uhyeah:

 

[sgtmac_46]

Well today was the day and it sucked! After an exciting day of crowd control practicals, including breaking up an unruly group of firemen who were throwing tennis balls and other painful but not too harmful objects, I got a taste of both CS gas and OC spray. The CS wasn't too fun. It was a hot, sweaty day so my whole body pretty much felt like it was on fire. But still, it wasn't bad at all compared to the OC. The exersize went like this: We closed our eyes and got a one second burst across the eyes and forehead. Then we had to open our eyes. We then had to run about 25 yards and deliver 10 left knee strikes and 10 right knee strikes to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew and extended our asp and delivered 10 strikes from both sides to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew (red guns were used for this.) on a surly defensive tactics instructor and had to get him on the ground. Not easy as he didn't want to go easy. So we had to keep our eyes open and on him for a good minute or so, giving strong verbal commands, avaiding having him get to close and taking our weapon etc until he complied. Then and only then were we able to go and suffer through decon. Some doctors from Wake Forest were doing a study so half our class decontaminated with water only and the other half used baby shampoo and water. I got to use baby shampoo, but I don't think it helped all that much. Here, five hours after getting sprayed my eyes are still somewhat irritated. I was pretty useless for about 45 min and wasn't really up to driving for 90 min. The stuff works. Out of our class of 38 only one person showed any real resistance to the spray.

That's good instruction. The time to realize how you react to pepperspray is in training, not on the street.

 

[Tgace]

I took Defense Tech's "less lethal operator" school. The stuff you mention sounds very similar. Good training.

 

[redfang]

Here it is next day, my eyes are still a little irritated. I'm noticing that they are pretty sensitive to light today.

 

[jkdhit]

whyd they do a baby shampoo/water test? i thought it was proven that fresh air and cold water was the best way to treat it? ahh on a hot day like this, makes me want to run the hose without a nozzle, on my face

 

[redfang]

Basically they did it because someone gave them grant money to do a study. The spray has an oily content. Water tends to run off of oil. Soap can break the cohesion of the oil. Baby shampoo isn't an irritant. So after we completed our tasks, we were handed a bottle on the way to the hoses. Half had pure water, half a solution of baby oil and water. We weren't supposed to know which was which, but it wasn't hard to figure out. The water was warm, which kind of sucked. We had to use the provided bottle before we could use the hoses. While all of this was going on, we had doctors asking us to rate, on a scale of 1 to 10 the pain in our eyes and difficulty breathing, before using the bottle and then at five minutes, ten, fifteen etc. They also had little cups of baby shampoo available to wash the face with. I had the soap in the bottle and used two or three of the cups. I don't know if it helped or not. It still really sucked and I was in a lot of pain, though not in the expected areas. I think that I still had a fair amount of the CS particles on me and the water activated them. Most of my pain, after the first 10 minutes was on my bare arms and the skin of my face. My eyes weren't too painful, even though they were extremely sensitive even through the next day, and my breathing was fine, though I was burping really bad for about 10 minutes.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Basically they did it because someone gave them grant money to do a study. The spray has an oily content. Water tends to run off of oil. Soap can break the cohesion of the oil. Baby shampoo isn't an irritant. So after we completed our tasks, we were handed a bottle on the way to the hoses. Half had pure water, half a solution of baby oil and water. We weren't supposed to know which was which, but it wasn't hard to figure out. The water was warm, which kind of sucked. We had to use the provided bottle before we could use the hoses. While all of this was going on, we had doctors asking us to rate, on a scale of 1 to 10 the pain in our eyes and difficulty breathing, before using the bottle and then at five minutes, ten, fifteen etc. They also had little cups of baby shampoo available to wash the face with. I had the soap in the bottle and used two or three of the cups. I don't know if it helped or not. It still really sucked and I was in a lot of pain, though not in the expected areas. I think that I still had a fair amount of the CS particles on me and the water activated them. Most of my pain, after the first 10 minutes was on my bare arms and the skin of my face. My eyes weren't too painful, even though they were extremely sensitive even through the next day, and my breathing was fine, though I was burping really bad for about 10 minutes.

Usually what happens is the face gets numb from the cold water of the water hoses, but the exposed skin areas of the arms usually aren't very well decontaminated. I myself prefer the baby shampoo and water mixture for decon. It does seem to get more of the oil residue off, though by that time the Oleoresin is in the skin so the effect of relief is not immediate.

If I might ask, why type of OC Spray was used and what was your opinion of it's effectiveness?

As a side not about your burping, i'll tell you this little story. The neighboring town has used First Defense pepperspray for several years, with extremely mixed success. I told them they might want to change brands. To illustrate this I took one of their cans and sprayed it directly in my mouth. First Defense OC has never seemed much hotter to me than a habanero pepper, and i've performed this little demonstration several times before.

It usually only burns the mouth for a few minutes, and it's not intolerable. I usually don't even drink any water as the burning is not very intense. The point of that story, however, is this...while spraying First Defense in my mouth doesn't incapacitate from the burning, it gives me violent hiccups nearly every time. That is the most incapacitating thing about the spray is me hiccuping for 10 minutes at a time. If refuse to perform this same demonstration with the OC Spray I currently carry.

 

[redfang]

What I'm carrying doesn't look like a brand that has been mentioned already. It says it's MK-4, there is a DA symbol under that. And I see that it is put out by Defense Technology Federal Laboratories. I found it pretty effective. I was able to fight through the effects for several minutes while I did my course, but was substantially hindered. After a few minutes the effect was greater and while I could converse and get around I was mostly useless for 20 minutes or so and had significant lingering effects for the better part of an hour.

 

[sgtmac_46]

What I'm carrying doesn't look like a brand that has been mentioned already. It says it's MK-4, there is a DA symbol under that. And I see that it is put out by Defense Technology Federal Laboratories. I found it pretty effective. I was able to fight through the effects for several minutes while I did my course, but was substantially hindered. After a few minutes the effect was greater and while I could converse and get around I was mostly useless for 20 minutes or so and had significant lingering effects for the better part of an hour.

Def Tec and First Defense are the same product produced by Federal Labs.

It's been my experience that Def Tec is about 50% effective. We've had a few injuries as a result of failure of the product. The effect on "test subject" students, and the effect on real world conditions (i.e. intoxicated, drug impaired, angry, motivated, etc) are vastly different.

I have tested and been exposed to Def Tec extensively...it's the very brand I have referred to eating. It's also one of the most widely used OC Sprays on the market. Federal has a good marketing program to administrators.

What you said is telling...you were able to fight through the effects for several minutes. That's pretty typical on the street as well. Def Tec fails to produce quick impairment about half the time. Furthermore, the half not immediately effected by Def Tec are the dangerous half.

I had an officer get in a bad spot with a subject he sprayed with Def Tec. There was no effect, and he got in a physical altercation with the guy that resulted in a dislocated finger. Other agencies near here have had similar failure rates. I've dealt with suspects who were sprayed and never experienced any real effects.

The main issue I have with Def Tec (and the same reason it's popular to administrations) is what Def Tec refers to as "food grade" pepper spray. At 500,000 Scoville it is pretty darn weak.

Am I saying that agencies shouldn't carry Def Tec? No, of course not (though I refuse to carry it myself). What i'm saying is that officers need to understand it's limitations. In addition to resulting in officer injuries, weaker OC Spray have resulted in increased suspect injuries by virtue of the fact that many times higher uses of force (such as the baton) have to be used subsequent to OC exposure.

I will say, the brand i've carried for several years, Fox Labs 5.3, has never experienced a similar failure. Of the numerous suspects i've had to use Fox on, I have had a 100% success rate of instant or near instant incapacitation, ranging from instant compliance, to the need of only soft empty hand control techniques to move them to a handcuffing position. Their combat effectiveness after exposure has always been reduced to only a fraction of what it was pre-exposure.

In fact, i've had occassion to spray habitually violent suspects who the neighboring town (who carry First Defense) have sprayed on numerous occassions. The result of the repeated exposure to Def Tec was the belief in this suspects mind that he was immune to OC Spray. One exposure of Fox Labs product was near instant compliance, this despite the fact that he had been up for two days on crystal methamphetamine.

He actually stated to me that he had never been exposed to anything like the OC Spray I was carrying and he admitted that he believed that he was immune to OC Spray as a result of exposure to Def Tec.

I only say all this as a warning to other officers to know the limitations of the product they carry. If you, as an officer, choose to carry or are forced to carry a weaker formula on duty, you have to understand that some of them have a higher failure rate than others, and plan accordingly.

Of course there is the possibility that any OC Spray can fail, and you need to have a plan for that eventuality, but I prefer 95+% effective over 50% at best.

All of this is just my personal opinion based on my experience, so take it for what it is. Lets just hope Federal Labs doesn't decide to sue me someday. Of course if they do, truth is an affirmative defense. I'll just spray myself with their product before my testimony and just keep on smiling.

Good luck, and stay safe.

 

[redfang]

Sgt. Mac, thanks for the advice. The dept. I'm with frowns on officers carrying non-issued equipment, though many do. I have a concern about lawsuits though if I used the non-reg OC, that the dept. might not back me. I'll have to feel it out with those who have been around longer. In the meantime, I'll be aware of the potential of failure.

 

[Cruentus]

I'll back Fox labs as well; I know a bit about them as their home base is here in Michigan. They have a model out that has the highest SHU levels of any spray on the market, and that is what I'd recommend.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sgt. Mac, thanks for the advice. The dept. I'm with frowns on officers carrying non-issued equipment, though many do. I have a concern about lawsuits though if I used the non-reg OC, that the dept. might not back me. I'll have to feel it out with those who have been around longer. In the meantime, I'll be aware of the potential of failure.

That's not suprising. Many larger departments strictly regiment what equipment can and cannot be used. Moreover, there is a group-think present in many large departments product procurement process that resists change vigorously. Use Federal Labs product if it's all you have, but understand it's limitations. I won't call it a bad product, but I will say it has an unacceptable failure rate for my tastes. Just keep in mind it's lower potency when using it, and plan accordingly for contigencies (i.e. empty-hand control, impact weapons, Tasers, etc.) That failure rate should be an even larger consideration when considered it for use against a suspect displaying lethal force of some kind.

As for the potential for lawsuit, it's a catch-22. If you use a less potent product that is departmentally approved, you avoid the charge that you used a non-regulation product. However, you open yourself up to other issues involving excessive force if the lower level of force you use (i.e. OC Spray) fails to subdue a violent suspect. A far greater likelyhood of charges of civil liability are present with baton strikes, for example, than with effective us of OC Spray. I would suggest if your department allows the use of non-regulation OC Sprays, even if they generally frown on it, that you consider your options. Fox Labs, Zarc, Vertec, and several other companies make a far more effective product than Federal Labs. In addition, it will likely be the company sued for any allegation of product liability. You will be judged on the objectionably reasonable standard of whether force was necessary.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'll back Fox labs as well; I know a bit about them as their home base is here in Michigan. They have a model out that has the highest SHU levels of any spray on the market, and that is what I'd recommend.

In my opinion, it's an outstanding product and one of the best on the market. It's ironic, when we first started researching different companies to determine what product we would switch to, we called Fox Labs number in middle of the night, probably close to midnight, hoping to get a recording telling us what their hours were. Instead of a recording, we got the owner of the company who has the phone ring at his house when he leaves work. We talked for 45 minutes with this guy on the phone about his product. I was very impressed by the commitment this man has to produce a superior product and have talked with him on the phone several times since then. You won't get that level of service anywhere else, and to couple that with a superior product is astounding. I would recommend Fox Labs 5.3 formula to anyone looking for a highly effective OC Spray. That's why I personally carry Fox Labs product.

That having been said, there are other companies that produce highly effective products as well. It is important in my opinion to research a product before relying on it to protect my life and welfare. You wouldn't go out and purchase the first cheap parachute you could find before jumping out of a plane? Why buy just anyone's OC Spray without verifying it is effective. It's important to do the research.

 

[Tgace]

We carry Punch II M-3 OC. Made by Aerko International. 10% OC. 2 million SHU.

 

[Cruentus]

In my opinion, it's an outstanding product and one of the best on the market. It's ironic, when we first started researching different companies to determine what product we would switch to, we called Fox Labs number in middle of the night, probably close to midnight, hoping to get a recording telling us what their hours were. Instead of a recording, we got the owner of the company who has the phone ring at his house when he leaves work. We talked for 45 minutes with this guy on the phone about his product. I was very impressed by the commitment this man has to produce a superior product and have talked with him on the phone several times since then. You won't get that level of service anywhere else, and to couple that with a superior product is astounding. I would recommend Fox Labs 5.3 formula to anyone looking for a highly effective OC Spray. That's why I personally carry Fox Labs product.

That having been said, there are other companies that produce highly effective products as well. It is important in my opinion to research a product before relying on it to protect my life and welfare. You wouldn't go out and purchase the first cheap parachute you could find before jumping out of a plane? Why buy just anyone's OC Spray without verifying it is effective. It's important to do the research.

Wow...that's dedication to your company. Can't beat that, especially in a superior product!

 

[sgtmac_46]

We carry Punch II M-3 OC. Made by Aerko International. 10% OC. 2 million SHU.

The Missouri State Highway Patrol went to Punch II after using Federal Labs First Defense MK-4 for several years. So far they seem to be happy with Punch. I've heard pretty good things about Punch as far as the effectiveness.

I've been wondering about Aerko's OC/CS mixture product Freeze. If anyone has any first hand "experience" with that kind of mixed product, it would be interesting to hear how the experience contrasts with straight OC.

 

[Tgace]

The Missouri State Highway Patrol went to Punch II after using Federal Labs First Defense MK-4 for several years. So far they seem to be happy with Punch. I've heard pretty good things about Punch as far as the effectiveness.

I've been wondering about Aerko's OC/CS mixture product Freeze. If anyone has any first hand "experience" with that kind of mixed product, it would be interesting to hear how the experience contrasts with straight OC.

Well. We dont carry it, but some agencies in my academy did. As we all had to be sprayed with our dept. approved spray, they had to take some. From the way they reacted Id say it looked pretty effective. :erg:

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I am proud to report that after having recently used the Feeze+P on a combatant individual, I had the opportunity to get hit with it myself.

............................................it works!

Also, I agree with what has been said regarding First Defense products...I have had more incapacitating experience with bar soap!

Stay Safe,
SpOOkeY