Obama's Stealth Socialism

[Flying Crane]

Perhaps we'd have more money for things like that if we weren't feeding, educating and housing 12 or so MILLION illegal aliens, oh, and providing for their medical care.Perhaps if illegal aliens weren't charged instate tuition by those schools there would be more money to go around... My sister's ex-husband is Colombian, and he went to school here, and paid OUT OF STATE tuition, although the school knew he was in the process of legally immigrating to the US. It would have been far easier for him to come here illegally and go to school, not to mention, he would have caught one of the amnesties and been able to complete the citizenship process faster and cheaper.
I think an important thing to consider is this: the potential benefit of these "socialist" ideas, while they are aimed at benefitting the individual, in the long run they really benefit the nation as a whole. Making sure people have adequate health care gives them a better chance at getting a good job and not being out of work because they are sick, and even becoming a welfare case because they can't afford their medical bills. Getting people thru college and getting a good quality education puts a stronger workforce into our economy, and we all benefit, as a nation, in the long run. The costs of running these programs, I suspect, will be returned with huge interest, from the benefits reaped by a stronger, healthier, better educated workforce.Perhaps people should have personal responsibility.Millions on welfare tell a different story. Shoot, people who lost their homes as a result of hurricane Katrina and are still on the government (that means, of course, your's and mine) teat, tell a different story.

Oh, I forgot: all those illegal immigrants. They are definitely the ones who will bring this nation to its knees. If only we could just establish a hunting season and then we could all go out and shoot them down and solve the problem once and for all.

You are really really funny actually...:rofl:

 

[Empty Hands]

Don't begrudge people with vast responsibilities pay commiserate with the number and scope of their duties.

I hope you're demanding more than minimum wage for all this high quality shilling. Your argument would be a lot more honest if those titans of industry didn't get paid the exact same whether they are wildly successful or sending the whole company down in flames.

 

[Twin Fist]

no need to make it personal EH

 

[jarrod]

not so fast.

When the government bails out a company? 1,000's of people get to keep thier jobs, allowing themt o earn a wage with which to purchase goods and services.

if a big company goes under, those people are out of work, and then they cant buy the widgets that other people make, and without customers, those widget makers lose thier jobs, which causes more people to lose thier jobs

While I would never advocate the government getting more involved in business than is absolutely needed, sometimes it is in fact NEEDED.

even if this bailout is needed, how is it not socialism, which is the point of this thread? why are some people so fixated on holding the working class accountable while CEOs are not? if we are going to have personal accountability, let's have it across the board.

FC
raising the minimum wage accomplishes NOTHING but raising the cost of those goods and services produced by minimum wage workers

you shouldnt be able to live on a burger flippers wage, otherwise there would be no incentive to get into management.

The way the system is set up, it motivates people to excel and succeed because success and hard work pay off

flpping burgers shouldnt

you shouldn't be able to live on a burger flippers wage? are you really serious? have you ever worked one of those jobs? they are hard & thankless, & while you shouldn't expect to get rich you should at least be able to get by.

there is a mentally disabled couple that lives in my apartment complex. they are both hard working, good people who just happen to not be born with fully functional brains. they both work full time at mcdonald's & get by just barely. but i guess they're just "lazy" & "unmotivated" & don't deserve what little they have.

there are a lot of people who work hard but just don't have the gifts that other people had.

punishing people with a crappy wage for working hard at a crappy job doesn't teach them any sort of lesson.

sorry if i've made anyone angry, i'm going to take a little break from posting on this thread because this is one of my hot button issues (in case no-one noticed).

jf

 

[Archangel M]

Yeah I worked one of those jobs when I was a COLLEGE KID and needed gas money and beer money. I NEVER thought that I would stay there and expect to raise a family and pay a mortgage.

Never.

As I was "starting up" my family I partook of some social programs, medical assistance, food assistance..but I was (not "ashamed" per se), "motivated" to get to a place where I wouldnt need it anymore. And it worked fine. There are already many programs out there, people seem to want to avoid the "shame" by making it all "universal".

And I dont hear anybody "begrudging" a mimum wage employee their wage. Only that a minimum wage employee shouldnt be expecting to live the average American lifestyle (cars, cable, internet, cell phones, DVD palyers, X-boxes etc.).

 

[Twin Fist]

even if this bailout is needed, how is it not socialism, which is the point of this thread? why are some people so fixated on holding the working class accountable while CEOs are not? if we are going to have personal accountability, let's have it across the board.

then change the law, cuz as of now, it isnt against the law

you shouldn't be able to live on a burger flippers wage? are you really serious?

yes

have you ever worked one of those jobs?

yes

they are hard & thankless, & while you shouldn't expect to get rich you should at least be able to get by.

why? why should yoube able to hold a TEENAGERS job and make an adults salary?

there is a mentally disabled couple that lives in my apartment complex. they are both hard working, good people who just happen to not be born with fully functional brains. they both work full time at mcdonald's & get by just barely. but i guess they're just "lazy" & "unmotivated" & don't deserve what little they have.

if thier disability were that bad, they would qualify for DISABILITY. Thats why it is there

there are a lot of people who work hard but just don't have the gifts that other people had.

whats that? the ability to work hard? the drive to succeed and improve thier station?

punishing people with a crappy wage for working hard at a crappy job doesn't teach them any sort of lesson.

sure it does, it teaches them that crappy jobs suck and that they should get a better one................

sorry if i've made anyone angry, i'm going to take a little break from posting on this thread because this is one of my hot button issues (in case no-one noticed).

jf

ok

 

[Twin Fist]

And I dont hear anybody "begrudging" a mimum wage employee their wage. Only that a minimum wage employee shouldnt be expecting to live the average American lifestyle (cars, cable, internet, cell phones, DVD palyers, X-boxes etc.).

I did

raising that wage raised the price of a hamburger,and IMO, it is out of hand

"You should be able to LIVE on minimum wage"

is alot like

"EVERYONE should be able to buy a home"

and look where that got us.........

 

[Makalakumu]

TF - the last couple of posts contain a number of assumptions that I'd like you to address.

1. Do you beleive that every human mind is terms of intelligence?

2. What would happen if the only job you were "smart" enough to get was a teenager's job?

3. What would happen if you were really "smart" but just so happened to be living a life where the adult phase started before you were 18?

(That would be me btw :wavey

4. Do you really think that the idea that "everyone should be able to buy a home" is the root cause of the financial problems facing this country?

 

[Big Don]

Obama has been fairly upfront with his plans to raise taxes and spending. Where is the stealth? Or is he just really bad at it?

 

[Big Don]

TF - the last couple of posts contain a number of assumptions that I'd like you to address.

1. Do you beleive that every human mind is terms of intelligence?

Could you rephrase that into a sentence that makes sense?

2. What would happen if the only job you were "smart" enough to get was a teenager's job?

Is it the responsibility of the government to provide for those who are stupid?

3. What would happen if you were really "smart" but just so happened to be living a life where the adult phase started before you were 18?

(That would be me btw :wavey

4. Do you really think that the idea that "everyone should be able to buy a home" is the root cause of the financial problems facing this country?

That isn't what anyone has said. The ROOT is not that "everyone should be able to buy a home." but, rather that the standards that used to apply to getting a mortgage, (little things) like proving you are capable of making the required payments, were done away with in large part to pander to minorities and the guilty feelings of some (Stupid) white people.
Ever hear of a NINJA loan? No INcome, NO Job, NO Assets, should these people get free houses? Where is my free house? I have an income and a job and am only lacking the dishonesty to go to a mortgage broker and lie my way into a house with an adjustable rate.
BTW, even a fool knows and adjustable rate is ONLY EVER going to get higher, they have these things called FIXED RATE MORTGAGES, which, is what the responsible people get.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Min Wage isn't intended to raise a family, pay for a house, a car, digistal cable and ddvr, and an IPOD. It's an entry level wage, with the idea being that as you get better you will find better employment at a higher wage. Federal min wage is a few bucks less than my states min wage, and I haven't worked at that level in over a decade. Neither has my other half.

Then again, food stamps, HEAP and welfare weren't meant to be permanent fixtures of the family going on 3+ generations without a job.

 

[Andrew Green]

Obama has been fairly upfront with his plans to raise taxes and spending. Where is the stealth? Or is he just really bad at it?

Raising taxes when you got as much national debt as you do seems like a good plan, better then cutting taxes and increasing spending which is what most politicians like to promise.

ike proving you are capable of making the required payments, were done away with in large part to pander to minorities and the guilty feelings of some (Stupid) white people.

No, I think it was done for the same reason payday loan companies exist and the same reason credit card companies will give anyone a card, companies make money giving them the loan. Houses are generally a safe market, at least when the value of houses is going up. If a customer defaults you repossess, sell, and no harm done. Unless a whole lot of customers default and the price of homes starts dropping, then you got a real mess.

The mortgage companies didn't care if the person ended up unable to pay, they expected to just repossess the house, sell it and still make enough off of the people that could pay. Except the numbers didn't work out. Like overhunting in nature, kill one animal for dinner and all is well, get greedy and kill the whole heard and you got a problem.

The house is the collateral on a mortgage, and if the lending company believes the value of the house will be more then it is when they lend you the money, they don't see a risk, it's got nothing to do with minorities, which I would consider a little racist to suggest. Poor people are not all some other colour then white.

Besides, the people most likely to get hit hard by this are the lower middle class, really poor people don't often own the place they live, they pay rent.

BTW, even a fool knows and adjustable rate is ONLY EVER going to get higher, they have these things called FIXED RATE MORTGAGES, which, is what the responsible people get.

Not always, depends on the market. Up here interest rates have been slowly creeping down over the past few years, a flexible rate taken a few years back would have been the better plan.

The responsible thing to do is be aware that it can go up, and be able to pay the increase if it does.

In a strong economy this isn't always a problem, the amount you owe is fixed, most people get periodic raises, and if you where in a apartment the rent would go up. Barring a steep climb on the interest rates that sort of fluctuation shouldn't be a problem.

Unless you are doing something dumb, like carrying a huge mortgage on a ridiculously long amortization period where a small increase in the interest rate will mean a big increase in your payment.

 

[Empty Hands]

No, I think it was done for the same reason payday loan companies exist and the same reason credit card companies will give anyone a card, companies make money giving them the loan.

This is reasoning that does not blame poor black and brown people for all our troubles, thus it is wrong. Haven't you figured that out yet?

 

[Big Don]

Payday loan companies, rent to own joints, etc, are the legal equivalent of a liscense to print money. Do they prey on the poor? Maybe, but, their target is the STUPID.

 

[Big Don]

This is reasoning that does not blame poor black and brown people for all our troubles, thus it is wrong. Haven't you figured that out yet?

Who has blamed black and brown people?

 

[Empty Hands]

Payday loan companies, rent to own joints, etc, are the legal equivalent of a liscense to print money. Do they prey on the poor? Maybe, but, their target is the STUPID.

Their target is people who have no other choice. BoA or WaMu isn't rushing to hand out collateral free loans to Tyrone in Compton.

 

[Empty Hands]

Who has blamed black and brown people?

You have. Duh. "were done away with in large part to pander to minorities" Sound familiar? It should, you just said it!

 

[Empty Hands]

That red dot isn't as anonymous as you think, Big D...

 

[Big Don]

You have. Duh. "were done away with in large part to pander to minorities" Sound familiar? It should, you just said it!

Gee, I would have thought that those doing away with the regulations and those pandering were to blame.

 

[Big Don]

That red dot isn't as anonymous as you think, Big D...

Well then, I am perfectly willing to call you a liar publicly, I will, on rare occasions, however, I was raised to believe that was impolite, even when the lie is public, so I kept it private. My apologies for showing you that little bit of respect.