Obama's Stealth Socialism

[jarrod]

welfare counts for less than 1% of the federal budget. the freeloaders aren't at the bottom; they are the banks, the oil companies, & the war profiteers.

jf

 

[jarrod]

what i'm saying is that universal health care & free college are extremes, sure, but we're already at the other extreme end of the spectrum. it amazes me how outraged people get at "welfare mothers" drawing $200 a month in food stamps when we are so far in debt because we are fighting another nation's civil war, deregulating big business, doing nothing to get off of oil, etc. defaulted student loans & food stamps aren't what's wrecked our economy.

it's easy to point fingers at the poor & say "they did it to themselves". but the fact is that the economy is in a shambles because business investments have not been geared towards creating jobs. if you create jobs, people have money, & they will spend money. but if businesses invest in finance & real estate instead, & what little manufacturing there is is out-sourced, then you are still taking people's money without providing a means for them to earn a reasonable income. so somebody may be a burger flipper because that is the only job that can't be easily outsourced. meanwhile mr. burger flipper is inundated with credit card offers (btw, why is loan sharking illegal but 30% interest on a credit card is not?) & mortgage offers. maybe he gets the card for emergencies, but hey look, the car broke down, junior got sick, whatever. next thing you know he's over his head in debt, his house is getting forclosed & he can't pay his credit card. so when this happens & the companies realize they've made a bad investment, uncle sam...i mean the taxpayers (including mr. burger flipper) foots the bill. so what we have now is socialism, it's just a form of socialism that only helps the richest in the nation. if we are going to have socialism, it might as well start from the bottom where it can help everybody. & we are going to have socialism, whether we like it or not.

jf

 

[Archangel M]

Hmmm..I have one job, a house, a car, and medical benefits. I pay my bills, my student loans and my taxes. I came from a lower middle class background and worked my *** off in school and in a bunch of low paying jobs until I worked my way up to where I am now. Am I one of those "Rich" guys that has to pay even more taxes to support those who didnt?

Socialism is not the answer, the government has never been the answer. Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness...not the providing of it.

"Sometimes the law defends plunder and participates in it. Thus the beneficiaries are spared the shame and danger that their acts would otherwise involve... But how is this legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them and gives it to the other persons to whom it doesn't belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish that law without delay ... No legal plunder; this is the principle of justice, peace, order, stability, harmony and logic." -Frederic Bastiat

 

[Nolerama]

Socialism is not the answer, the government has never been the answer. Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness...not the providing of it.

Whatever is going on right now isn't the answer, either. Is there anyone you would suggest that could make a change in the way our country is run? Maybe we can cross-reference that person vs. Obama, since you're bent on derailing his ideas.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think it is important to bear in mind that Social Security is supposed to be a temporary measure for a person whilst they get themselves back on their feet after falling on hard times. It is not supposed to be a mechanism via which a person is supported for the rest of their lives in luxury.

There are those that 'milk' the system, particularly in the matter of Child Support but most people with any hope of getting paying work will take it when it comes along. I have been on the Dole myself for a few years after my accident and it is crushing to your spirit, especially if domestic appliances that you take for granted break and you can't replace them.

No car, no money, no life and the SS on your back every fortnight whipping you to take any job, no matter what it is - that doesn't sound much like a Gravy Train to me .

 

[Flying Crane]

Where does this stuff end though? Extending health care to those who really cant afford it is one thing, universal health care is another. Financial aid is one thing, a free college education for all is another. We have freeloaders NOW with all the welfare/social programs we already have.

well, as far as heath care goes, it seems to me a big disgrace that we are so willing as a nation to spend untold billions and billions of dollars monthly to wage morally questionable wars around the world, and bail out the elite wealthy on Wall Street, but for some reason we refuse to make sure our own people are able to see a doctor when needed. I'd say making sure our own people have the care that they need ought to be a higher priority.

Also, I believe back in the 1950s and 1960s, at least in some states, the state-run university systems were free. So many of the politicians who are in charge now had that benefit, but that has now gone away for the later generations and a college education is harder and harder to manage.

I think an important thing to consider is this: the potential benefit of these "socialist" ideas, while they are aimed at benefitting the individual, in the long run they really benefit the nation as a whole. Making sure people have adequate health care gives them a better chance at getting a good job and not being out of work because they are sick, and even becoming a welfare case because they can't afford their medical bills. Getting people thru college and getting a good quality education puts a stronger workforce into our economy, and we all benefit, as a nation, in the long run. The costs of running these programs, I suspect, will be returned with huge interest, from the benefits reaped by a stronger, healthier, better educated workforce.

We need to stop worrying about the cheaters and freeloaders. Will there be some people who milk the system? Of course, there always have been and there always will be and they ought to be dealt with thru appropriate law enforcement channels. But those people will be a small minority, because believe it or not, most people don't really want to be a ward of the State. They really want to get out there and take care of themselves and their own families.

So these ideas are aimed at making our nation stronger as a whole, by making sure the citizens at the individual level are taken care of and have what they need in terms of healthcare, education, and opportunities. The basic idea behind these ideas is that we all do better as a nation, when the individual does better across the nation.

 

[Flying Crane]

And actually, i dont think the status qou is fine, burger flippers are making too much money these days. Damn burgers cost 5-7$ for a combo meal? most of that is due to the kid with NO skills making 7.50 and hour.....needs to be lowered

wow dude, that's really surprisingly mean spirited. I'd never tell you or anyone else they are being paid too much, unless it is one of these big executives of these Wall Street firms or other people making tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year. You're gonna begrudge someone making $7.50 an hour? That's shameful.

 

[Big Don]

wow dude, that's really surprisingly mean spirited. I'd never tell you or anyone else they are being paid too much, unless it is one of these big executives of these Wall Street firms or other people making tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year. You're gonna begrudge someone making $7.50 an hour? That's shameful.

Those people that make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year, earn every penny. A burger flipper has an off day and the fries are cold, a CEO has an off day, thousands could lose their jobs. Don't begrudge people with vast responsibilities pay commiserate with the number and scope of their duties.

 

[Flying Crane]

Those people that make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year, earn every penny.

nah, they don't.

 

[Big Don]

well, as far as heath care goes, it seems to me a big disgrace that we are so willing as a nation to spend untold billions and billions of dollars monthly to wage morally questionable wars around the world, and bail out the elite wealthy on Wall Street, but for some reason we refuse to make sure our own people are able to see a doctor when needed. I'd say making sure our own people have the care that they need ought to be a higher priority.

Perhaps we'd have more money for things like that if we weren't feeding, educating and housing 12 or so MILLION illegal aliens, oh, and providing for their medical care.

Also, I believe back in the 1950s and 1960s, at least in some states, the state-run university systems were free. So many of the politicians who are in charge now had that benefit, but that has now gone away for the later generations and a college education is harder and harder to manage.

Perhaps if illegal aliens weren't charged instate tuition by those schools there would be more money to go around... My sister's ex-husband is Colombian, and he went to school here, and paid OUT OF STATE tuition, although the school knew he was in the process of legally immigrating to the US. It would have been far easier for him to come here illegally and go to school, not to mention, he would have caught one of the amnesties and been able to complete the citizenship process faster and cheaper.

I think an important thing to consider is this: the potential benefit of these "socialist" ideas, while they are aimed at benefitting the individual, in the long run they really benefit the nation as a whole. Making sure people have adequate health care gives them a better chance at getting a good job and not being out of work because they are sick, and even becoming a welfare case because they can't afford their medical bills. Getting people thru college and getting a good quality education puts a stronger workforce into our economy, and we all benefit, as a nation, in the long run. The costs of running these programs, I suspect, will be returned with huge interest, from the benefits reaped by a stronger, healthier, better educated workforce.

Perhaps people should have personal responsibility.

We need to stop worrying about the cheaters and freeloaders. Will there be some people who milk the system? Of course, there always have been and there always will be and they ought to be dealt with thru appropriate law enforcement channels. But those people will be a small minority, because believe it or not, most people don't really want to be a ward of the State. They really want to get out there and take care of themselves and their own families.

Millions on welfare tell a different story. Shoot, people who lost their homes as a result of hurricane Katrina and are still on the government (that means, of course, your's and mine) teat, tell a different story.

So these ideas are aimed at making our nation stronger as a whole, by making sure the citizens at the individual level are taken care of and have what they need in terms of healthcare, education, and opportunities. The basic idea behind these ideas is that we all do better as a nation, when the individual does better across the nation.

 

[jarrod]

Hmmm..I have one job, a house, a car, and medical benefits. I pay my bills, my student loans and my taxes. I came from a lower middle class background and worked my *** off in school and in a bunch of low paying jobs until I worked my way up to where I am now. Am I one of those "Rich" guys that has to pay even more taxes to support those who didnt?

Socialism is not the answer, the government has never been the answer. Life, Liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness...not the providing of it.

based on what you're saying, you're someone who worked hard to get where they are. good for you, really, that's great. my situation is exactly the same as yours except that i work 3 jobs, live in an apartment not a house (provided by one of my employers), & i don't have medical insurance. i also worked very hard through college at a lot of hard, low-paying jobs. but along the way i had a nasty divorce & filed bankruptcy. am i one of those lazy freeloaders you're complaining about?

but here's my real question for you: why are you so concerned about the potential socialism we would have under obama & not outraged at the very real socialism we have under bush? bush has done more to erode personal liberties & misuse our taxes than any president i can remember. if obama wants to misuse our taxes to provide healthcare & education then i will be less upset with the government than i am now.

jf

 

[jarrod]

Those people that make tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year, earn every penny. A burger flipper has an off day and the fries are cold, a CEO has an off day, he makes billions of dollars while ruining the economy, then the government bails him out. Don't begrudge people with vast responsibilities pay commiserate with the number and scope of their duties.

here man, i fixed your post for you

 

[Big Don]

here man, i fixed your post for you

Yes, you made it completely incorrect.
Good job!

 

[Andrew Green]

On Universal Healthcare, the US spends more per capita on Healthcare then pretty much any other country. Your government spends more per person on health care then Canada does. Plus you pay insurance on top of that. So how is a system where you put more of your taxes into health care then I do, and you have to pay insurance on top of that better then a socialized system like we have here where the government spends less per person, and we have universal health care?

I'm sorry, but sometimes I think some people get so fixated on "socialism" being "bad" that they are unable to look at things objectively as soon as the word comes up.

 

[Twin Fist]

welfare counts for less than 1% of the federal budget. the freeloaders aren't at the bottom; they are the banks, the oil companies, & the war profiteers.

jf

not so fast.

When the government bails out a company? 1,000's of people get to keep thier jobs, allowing themt o earn a wage with which to purchase goods and services.

if a big company goes under, those people are out of work, and then they cant buy the widgets that other people make, and without customers, those widget makers lose thier jobs, which causes more people to lose thier jobs

While I would never advocate the government getting more involved in business than is absolutely needed, sometimes it is in fact NEEDED.

 

[Twin Fist]

well, as far as heath care goes, it seems to me a big disgrace that we are so willing as a nation to spend untold billions and billions of dollars monthly to wage morally questionable wars around the world, and bail out the elite wealthy on Wall Street, but for some reason we refuse to make sure our own people are able to see a doctor when needed. I'd say making sure our own people have the care that they need ought to be a higher priority.

whatever

there are hospitals in every town where you can go for EMERGENCY treatment, and never pay for it

dont make it sound like people are dropping like flies in the streets for lack of health care.

Not to mention they could, oh i dont know, GET A BETTER JOB that offers them healthcare as part of thier salary............hell, long term McDONALDS employees can get healthcare.

 

[Twin Fist]

wow dude, that's really surprisingly mean spirited. I'd never tell you or anyone else they are being paid too much, unless it is one of these big executives of these Wall Street firms or other people making tens and hundreds of millions of dollars a year. You're gonna begrudge someone making $7.50 an hour? That's shameful.

FC
raising the minimum wage accomplishes NOTHING but raising the cost of those goods and services produced by minimum wage workers

you shouldnt be able to live on a burger flippers wage, otherwise there would be no incentive to get into management.

The way the system is set up, it motivates people to excel and succeed because success and hard work pay off

flpping burgers shouldnt

 

[Flying Crane]

FC
raising the minimum wage accomplishes NOTHING but raising the cost of those goods and services produced by minimum wage workers

you shouldnt be able to live on a burger flippers wage, otherwise there would be no incentive to get into management.

The way the system is set up, it motivates people to excel and succeed because success and hard work pay off

flpping burgers shouldnt

Are you still begrudging someone $7.50 an hour? In most parts of the country, that's nowhere near a living wage. And you want to take that away from people so you can have a cheaper burger? Well, vote with your feet if you feel so strongly about it. Go home and make your own burger. Then you don't have to support such an outrageous pay scale.

I am where I am in life because of MY actions. So is everyone else.

and the burger flipper is where he is because of his own actions, and suddenly that's not good enough for you? You've got to step in and tell him he doesn't even deserve the piddly bit that he's getting for working a ****** but honest job, serving customers like yourself?

 

[Flying Crane]

whatever

there are hospitals in every town where you can go for EMERGENCY treatment, and never pay for it

dont make it sound like people are dropping like flies in the streets for lack of health care.

so waiting for a health problem to become a true emergency is the better answer?

Not to mention they could, oh i dont know, GET A BETTER JOB that offers them healthcare as part of thier salary............hell, long term McDONALDS employees can get healthcare.

well, why don't you become a long-term McD employee so you can get on their healthcare program and then report back to us and let us know how good it is...

 

[Flying Crane]

On Universal Healthcare, the US spends more per capita on Healthcare then pretty much any other country. Your government spends more per person on health care then Canada does. Plus you pay insurance on top of that. So how is a system where you put more of your taxes into health care then I do, and you have to pay insurance on top of that better then a socialized system like we have here where the government spends less per person, and we have universal health care?

I'm sorry, but sometimes I think some people get so fixated on "socialism" being "bad" that they are unable to look at things objectively as soon as the word comes up.

Exactly. The system is broken all the way around. It needs to be fixed, and I believe strongly that it is possible to make it work much much better for all involved, and not be nearly so financially wasteful.