My guess is that if the ban does go away, our men and women in the military will be professional enough to handle it. Whether or not it's a good or a bad decision, it will work out.
Obama to end Don't Ask, Don't Tell
- Thread starter Nolerama
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Sixty years ago we had exactly the same fears about *shudder* Negroes serving in the same units and living in the barracks as White Men. There was the same twaddle about unit cohesion, the suitability about the Scary Other of the day for new duties, questions about whether a White Man was capable of taking orders from someone Colored and so on.
Somehow the military survived.
If soldiers are really so emotionally fragile that they can't function professionally with anyone who isn't just like them we need a better class of soldier.
Somehow the military survived.
If soldiers are really so emotionally fragile that they can't function professionally with anyone who isn't just like them we need a better class of soldier.
I thought most affairs start with colleauges working and spending a lot of time together. I've know several people that have married people with whom they worked after they developed a closeness at work.
I don't know how the joke/myth of sex stopping after marriage got started. Hollywood?
Forced? No, why would they be? There's different messes for different people, there's the females messing, male, senior ranks, officers. Officers and junior ranks don't share accomodation so there's always discrimination in the forces. Gays and lesbians use the respective accomodation with no problems. People simply don't care enough to worry about it.
In the Army, on exercise the men and women share accomodation, showers if they have them etc, everyone tends to be so tired and focused on work I don't think they care much about who they sleep next to.
I think some people perhaps are focusing on sex way too much! perhaps theres something in fact in the old wartime saying that the Yanks were oversexed, over paid and over here? goodness knows the British squaddie isn't backward when it comes to sex but they tend to look for it outside the workplace, there's a saying that you don't mess on your own doorstep that is mostly adhered to, so gay or straight they tend to look for their fun outside of their units.
I stand by my original point, the military is a conservative organization, and those who are gay should be quiet about it. Branches of service like the Marine Corps will never tolerate gays, the gays will get their butts kicked every day, it won't work. If you want to serve, go ahead and serve, just be quiet about your sexual orientation if your gay.
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I don't know if you've served or are serving, Joab, so I don't know where you're coming from, but this Marine's experience says otherwise. I saw the film about him, and they interviewed members and former members of his unit, and before he "came out" everyone knew he was gay, and they mostly just didn't care, because he was a good Marine. They relied upon him, and they knew that they could, and that was all that mattered.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
different country, different culture
what works for you wont always work for us
pretty sure i said this before
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
no one but Carol addressed my point, so in typical TF fashion, I am gonna keep asking it.
If you support forcing men and women to serve,live,shower, whatever with OPENLY gay men and women, do you support FORCING women and men to share berthing, showers, toilets, etc?
if not, why not, since it is the exact same situation
If you support forcing men and women to serve,live,shower, whatever with OPENLY gay men and women, do you support FORCING women and men to share berthing, showers, toilets, etc?
if not, why not, since it is the exact same situation
I've met numerous military officers who are in the military in part as a lifestyle choice. They want a certain structure and sense of purpose and adventure and respect that the military life gives them, and have been raised in such an environment. (I shared an office with such an individual when I taught at West Point.) They are very patriotic and come from a long line of officers and have a certain noble view of what a life of military service is, and this doesn't match their notion of tradition and conservative values. To them I say: Adjust.
When I taught at the Naval Postgraduate School during the early part of the Clinton years this issue came up. A Marine Corps major said it to me very plainly:
"Don't matter to me if they're straight or gay. They're gonna do what I tell 'em to do either way."
I believed him. My guess is just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there won't be any gay-bashing of the Navy corpsman. A team is a team.
It worked with racial and gender integration...heck, before that there were issues of religious and social-class integration, esp. of the officer corps. This is a good thing.
When I taught at the Naval Postgraduate School during the early part of the Clinton years this issue came up. A Marine Corps major said it to me very plainly:
"Don't matter to me if they're straight or gay. They're gonna do what I tell 'em to do either way."
I believed him. My guess is just as there are no atheists in foxholes, there won't be any gay-bashing of the Navy corpsman. A team is a team.
It worked with racial and gender integration...heck, before that there were issues of religious and social-class integration, esp. of the officer corps. This is a good thing.
They said the same thing about:
Jews, Catholics, Blacks and women in their day. The Services adjusted. The first thing that a Marine is supposed to be able to do is obey orders. If a couple dozen are sentenced to 3-5 in a military prison for disobeying orders and aggravated assault against fellow Marines during time of war the rest will figure it out pretty quickly.
Again, if the Marines can't obey simple orders and can't refrain from committing violent crimes against their brothers and sisters in arms they shouldn't be wearing the damned uniform.
Are men and women given separate facilities based on shared sexual interests, or shared anatomy (plus tradition)? My understanding is that the big thing this does in the service is to protect women from sexual predation by their heterosexual male colleagues. Homosexual women have a low rate of sexual assault on heterosexual women.
Many colleges are heading toward co-ed restrooms and even dorm rooms. (Yes, at many schools men and women can share a room non-romantically.) The world is changing in that way.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
ever been in the military tellner?
i am betting no.
i am betting no.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
sure it is, and I long for the day, but it is BY choice.
are you willing to FORCE it on women to share showers, toilets and bunks with men?
are you willing to FORCE it on women to share showers, toilets and bunks with men?
They do that in the field when necessary. When it isn't necessary, they don't. Why is this a problem? It's like the arguments that if a man can marry a man then a man can marry a goat. The proposed change is only to end the discrimination against heterosexuals. I don't understand why they can't do that without forcing men and women to shower together. I understand that that matches your personal sense of fairness, but then, discrimination against homosexuals violates mine.
I don't think it's quite the same situation because a homosexual can blend in better. I seriously doubt you'd even know if the guy next to you in the shower was gay. And if you did know the guy was gay, he'd be an idiot to act on anything. That said, I think it'll be a non-issue.
Now, as to forcing men and women to shower together. I don't support that. I support forcing the hot ones to shower with me!
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
arnis,
military service isnt a right, it is a preveledge.
no one is entitled to be allowed to serve. Including gays
there are plenty of reasons someone isnt allowed in. Flat feet, bad hearing, being over wieght, drug use, etc etc etc
in reality, gays are not being descriminated against, they ARE allowed to serve, under certain conditions. Just like you can get in if you have taken drugs, you just cant take them any MORE.
same same
that being said, I still support the lefting of the ban, i want ONE standard, ONE set of rules
fair means equal
you are either down with fairness or your not. there is no "just a little unfair" just like there is no "just a little censorship" or just a little pregnant
military service isnt a right, it is a preveledge.
no one is entitled to be allowed to serve. Including gays
there are plenty of reasons someone isnt allowed in. Flat feet, bad hearing, being over wieght, drug use, etc etc etc
in reality, gays are not being descriminated against, they ARE allowed to serve, under certain conditions. Just like you can get in if you have taken drugs, you just cant take them any MORE.
same same
that being said, I still support the lefting of the ban, i want ONE standard, ONE set of rules
fair means equal
you are either down with fairness or your not. there is no "just a little unfair" just like there is no "just a little censorship" or just a little pregnant
The same fears? I haven't heard much about attraction and sexual tension between the races from 60 years ago. Maybe race and sexual orientation really aren't the same thing?
Even though it is obviously a very different thing, this still shouldn't prevent gays from being able serve in the military. But at the same time, I can understand people's,straight or gay, conerns about sleeping in close quarters and showering with those that they may find sexually attractive or those that find them sexually attractive. People, like all other animals, are wired to spread their genes and nature has created incredibly strong reactions to various stimuli to help push the process, maybe even stronger than baseball stats and thoughts of Roseanne Barr (well, baseball stats anyway).
Serving in the military isn't a privalege or a right, its a job for goodness sake.
It's arrogant to assume that if you serve with a gay person they are going to try something on with you.
TF, how are our cultures so different that we are more tolerant than you are then? Why can't you accept gays serving in the forces and we can?
Why all the stuff about forcing men and women to shower together? The British Military accomodation for the most part now (training establishments have four man rooms but still have private showers) has single rooms with en suite bathrooms (the rooms have double beds btw) so no one is forced to shower with anyone, the single rooms without en suite bathrooms have showers with cubicles so no one has to see anyone shower. All toilet facilities are private too. On exercise and on ships it's no different, what sort of armed forces do you have when eveyone has to shower together?
It's arrogant to assume that if you serve with a gay person they are going to try something on with you.
TF, how are our cultures so different that we are more tolerant than you are then? Why can't you accept gays serving in the forces and we can?
Why all the stuff about forcing men and women to shower together? The British Military accomodation for the most part now (training establishments have four man rooms but still have private showers) has single rooms with en suite bathrooms (the rooms have double beds btw) so no one is forced to shower with anyone, the single rooms without en suite bathrooms have showers with cubicles so no one has to see anyone shower. All toilet facilities are private too. On exercise and on ships it's no different, what sort of armed forces do you have when eveyone has to shower together?
Gordon Nore
Senior Master
From an episode of The West Wing...
I agree with your conclusion. But I think the argument made against gays in the military is a spoiler. It'll disrupt the unit. It's bad for morale, bad for security. And on and on... When Clinton raised this issue years ago, my brother-in-law, a very conservative person employed by the a US defense contractor, made what I thought was a very interesting argument:
"The US Military works for The President. If he says, 'Yes,' to gays in the military, that's what they do."
RandomPhantom700
Master of Arts
Getting hired by a company isn't a privilege either, but if you refuse to hire them for being a woman or being black, you can bet your a** you'll be in for a lawsuit. Being overweight or flatfooted or using drugs are all legitimate reasons to keep someone out of the military. There really isn't a particularly legitimate reason why gays can't serve. Sure, you don't have the right to serve in the military, but that doesn't mean they can discriminate for whatever damn reason they choose. I mean, the military's the government, after all.
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