Not so great ! (?)

[Hand Sword]

Hi all!

A little debate to chime in on. Are the old, old schoolers, the ones that are the "names" in the martial art universe and pantheon truly great, or did they happen to be good Martial artists at a time when the arts were still full of mystery, and benefitted from the "new, wow" factor? This discussion arose because of a thought that today's artists do the same "stuff", but are bigger, faster, etc...... And, now that the veil has been lifted, we realize that they are not so "great", instead reduced, in our culture, to something that kids do (soccer mom status), or the but of a joke.

 

[pstarr]

They were truly very highly skilled. Many of today's practitioners appear to "do the same stuff" but it's only the outer shell.

 

[g-bells]

these ma's are highly skilled and they have earned the respect given to them through years of hard work. they did not have the benefit of , for example protective gear ,that we are so lucky to have. they learned the HARD way

 

[still learning]

Hello, If you ever get a chance to talk to the old timers that are still around. Ask them what there training was like?

You will find night and day difference of what today's average training is like.

Example: Our Professor (still training), when they use to sparr ,it was more full contact without the form gears. Usually everyday someone goes home with a bloodly nose,black eyes, sore bodys and so on.

There was no such thing as water breaks, most were long classes(most were two hours or more). Most Gi's were soaking wet and smelly.

Yes the Old timers of yesterday....they were really strong, tuff, lots of endurance and body condition.

Most people would quit...if they still train that way....(there are schools who still train the same way)...these are the guys you will know the Black belts from there schools are truly Black belts.....Aloha

 

[Hand Sword]

I do remeber those times. I was lucky enough to come up, training with the old mentality. We didn't have the gear either. Much blood and bruises back then-lol! I remember peeling off the soaking wet gi's too. As for the respect, never questioned that. They will always have that!

My question (which came about from co workers) was more about where everyone stacks up, I guess. I've seen the Gracie vs. Bruce Lee argument, Ali vs. John L. Sullivan, etc... And thought about it. For those that are the fighters, or focus on that aspect of training, and have done so for many years now, where are they (you) on the ladder? It's true, about what was mentioned above, but, what the old schoolers went through, compared to today's training, is that really head and shoulders above a dedicated artist today? If you do the same "stuff", and have for a while, couldn't you match the old schoolers? Are today's artists more eveolved? I mean, if it comes down to punching, kicking, etc.. Why is their's supposedly so much better than today's? Or, was it, just new to the masses, they had great talent, and wow'd them, achieving legendary status?

(just playing devil's advocate here, those who argued this are not here with me)

 

[Rook]

Its hard to get to the truth of the matter underneath all the mythology, self-promotion, and sheer lies floating around. Everyone who was a major proponent had their own following who touted their man or woman as the best - and would make up outlandish stories to prove it.

If you choose to believe these stories, Zhang Sanfeng killed 400 rebels with one hand in one day; Sun Lu Tang could outrun a horse; Yang Lu Chan threw a man onto the roof of five story building by twisting the shaft of the spear he was carrying; Ueshiba could teleport, dodge bullets, predict the future, and knock out masses of people with his spirit shout.

History isn't as kind. Zhang Sanfeng probably never existed, Sun Lu Tang's own daughter said that he was no faster than any other man in good shape, Yang's family finds the spear legend silly and Ueshiba's son says his father was just greatly misquoted (not likely).

 

[pstarr]

That's true. A lot of the old stories didn't really happen the way they're're told - and some never happened at all.

I was fortunate in coming up in the old school. It was very demanding and almost brutal at times. You had to REALLY want to learn.

Many contemporary martial arts practitioners don't/won't put in the same kind of rugged training. For example, I still hit the striking post at least 600 times a day with each hand. Many modern students refuse to do that because it's initially painful as well as time-consuming.

I still don't let my students wear foam gear. Instead, they have to learn to control their techniques, just as we did in the "old days."

Anyone who pukes or bleeds on the floor has to clean it up.

I guess maybe one of the biggest differences nowadays is mindset.

 

[Hand Sword]

First I would say : Outstanding pstarr! Keep at it and don't change!

Next, it's true sadly. Most don't train the way it's supposed to be done.
However, The people I was referring to were those that do train, and focus on the fighting aspect. From their perspective, the techniques are the techniques, and the persons attributes are the attributes. Based on that is where this argument is coming from. They feel that back then, there was limited "stuff". Now, there's what was and more. Better training methods, etc... They said they are more well rounded as fighters, compared to them, with the same mind set and dedication. Their point was that it was just because it was new, and had a veil of mystery, and they were good for their time, and got more than they should have, in terms of how their viewed.

 

[JasonASmith]

We have contact in my school, but we do have to use the gear...
I, for one, come home after every class with sore joints, some bruises(which is saying something, because I don't bruise easily), and it takes effort to peel off my gi in the locker room after class...I guess we don't quite fit into the "modern" way of doing things, but we aren't completely traditional, either... Either way, I love it!

 

[exile]

Its hard to get to the truth of the matter underneath all the mythology, self-promotion, and sheer lies floating around. Everyone who was a major proponent had their own following who touted their man or woman as the best - and would make up outlandish stories to prove it.

If you choose to believe these stories, Zhang Sanfeng killed 400 rebels with one hand in one day; Sun Lu Tang could outrun a horse; Yang Lu Chan threw a man onto the roof of five story building by twisting the shaft of the spear he was carrying; Ueshiba could teleport, dodge bullets, predict the future, and knock out masses of people with his spirit shout.

History isn't as kind. Zhang Sanfeng probably never existed, Sun Lu Tang's own daughter said that he was no faster than any other man in good shape, Yang's family finds the spear legend silly and Ueshiba's son says his father was just greatly misquoted (not likely).

Rook, that's dead-on! It's not just MA history, it's a problem with history history... look at all the stuff that keeps coming out... Jefferson and Sally Hemmings, or the fact that Jack Kerouac, the darling of bohemians in the 50s, was a racist bigot, or... our view of the past is so skewed by legends that if we really knew the truth about people, as vs. what we think we know, we would probably think it was the history of some other planet.

This isn't a knock on anyone. We glorify the celebrities of the present and we romanticize the past; that's just what people do and have always done. Those stories about Yang and Ueshiba are kind of fun, even if they aren't true. But it's also good to remember, as I think it was Adrienne Rich said, `there never was an ancient heroic race. It's always been just us chickens all along'.

Probably there's no way to compare the great ones of the past and of the present, in any domain. Was Paul Morphy a greater chessplayer than Gary Kasparov? How does Paganini stack up against Midori as a violinist...? For that matter, how do the Yankees of Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig's era, the Yankees of Whitey Ford, Toney Kubek, Clete Boyer and Bobby Richardson, or the best Yankee teams of the past twelve years stack up against each other... I just don't see what criteria you could use to decide... :idunno:

 

[Drac]

I do remeber those times. I was lucky enough to come up, training with the old mentality. We didn't have the gear either. Much blood and bruises back then-lol! I remember peeling off the soaking wet gi's too.

Been there too..

 

[charyuop]

It depends how old you referring to.
The training you get today is aimed to self defence, but thing that might happen once or never in your life. Very old timers had another purpose...fighting for their lives. Thus training were very different and the outcome of course much better.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

This is the problem. We can look at modern fighters and have plenty of recorded verifiable evidence. We can look at clips of Vanderlai Silva or Fedor and see just how good they are, we can analyse it, and we can see it tested.
Whereas with an awful lot of older figures we have no evidence we can verify.
THhis doesn't mean they weren't good, just that we have no proof of just how good they were. So naturally everyone gets to have a field day either declaring them near mystical in their abilities or else fakers who took advantage of people.
If they have a win/loss record we can use that to make some educated guesses, and any testimony from reliable witnesses can be of use too.
But the vast majority of "proof" is unverifiable anectdotal evidence and has to be treated like such.
Yes we can choose to believe it, but we can't offer it as proof of their abilities. Likewise though, unless there's a specific reason, we have no call to disparage their abilities.
So ultimately we just have to accept - We weren't there, so we don't know.

 

[HKphooey]

I do remeber those times. I was lucky enough to come up, training with the old mentality. We didn't have the gear either. Much blood and bruises back then-lol! I remember peeling off the soaking wet gi's too. As for the respect, never questioned that. They will always have that!

Exactly!

Getting hit and hurt teaches us not to get hit!

 

[Robert Lee]

If you look back The old timers As I see That promoted the M/A and competerd taught and spread the M/A interest. They were Good Martial artists. And still are. Today yes it is differet Thanks to people like those that helped bring the different arts to light. Are they better are they what we should train like. Well No But we should keep them spoken about Just as Todays M/A Will be spoken of 30 40 years from now. We evolve From what the past exposes to us. The only truth in today. Is people are finding out you have to asorb what is a real benifit for you. Not remain with in one mold if that mold Does not meet your needs. That does not mean learn every art Or any other art. It means Take what you learn Make it your own Pass it down if you so choose as a instructor so others can also find there own path. All the greats from the past and now Were and are good because they Could perform what they trained While others asorbed less and could not as well. But every path in life we aways have others that can find there way easyer to help guide others to take there place later. And If you teach remember only a few students truely push there limits The more you assist the more others will set a higher goal. Good instructors are remembered by there good students.

 

[searcher]

It is truly comparing apples to oranges. I was very young and just coming up through the ranks when alot of "today's" names were establishing themselves. This may sound cleche', but it was a different time then. I feel that it was a bunch more insane on the streets then, as it pertains to fighting. Now it is more about firepower, then it was about fighting.

So to answer your question yes/no. Today we have a group of very flashy individuals that are making a name for themselves. Yesteryear we had a small group of highly skilled fighters. We need to remember that the ones who are making a name now were trained by those who have already made a name for themselves.

JMHO.

 

[Bigshadow]

Don't forget many of these people you are talking about are still training and still learning. If they are GOOD at what they do and they are still learning, they will still be at the head of the pack despite their age and infamy.

It is the ones who stop training, stop learning and try to make a living off of their fame that end up being joked about and people that are younger end up being better.

Something to think about....

 

[matt.m]

You know just for my .02. The Marine Corps used Chesty Puller as its Superman figure. In battle every jarhead would think. "What would Chesty do?" so to speak. This guy was awarded 5 Navy crosses, that is indeed huge. I know people that are alive that would talk of his spirit, they served as PFC's and Corporals in WWII during the island hopping campaign.

In my mind if someone went to Vietnam they had a harder Marine Corps enlistment than I did, etc. etc.

These kinds of people did and were able to do extraordinary things that no one was readily able or more times than not unwilling to do. I myself did a lot of crap duty no one else wanted. I made sergeant before anyone else in my entry date time period, plus and minus one year. When I pinned on sergeant a desert storm vet told me I was a suck up. He was jealous or angry, whatever. He just wasn't happy that I made sergeant before him.

A lot of times it is not what are you willing to do that no one else willing to do?

I am 100 % certain that Choi and Ueshiba were absolutely fabulous fighters, the founders of most arts pretty much are.

I will give a hapkido example: On one occassion during a coldest day of the year workout in dads class no one wanted to train, absolutely no one. He was the most energetic, afterall leadership is a lonely place, I know this first hand.

I was once in a helicopter crash in Liberia, I stood up and commanded my squad to do the same if their leg wasn't broken. Did I want to get up or lay where I was? Of course I wanted to lay on the deck, I was the leader, I had to be the strong one.

He made the comment "If I wanted to train by myself, my son and I would have stayed home." "Mr. Park said in Korea when there was snow on the ground and they didn't want to train they would sit on a bamboo platform and study pressure point charts and the like."

People back in the old west would say they got robbed by Jesse James or Billy the Kid.

The point is, someone has to be the inspirational point that everything is wrapped around. A key argument would be the following...."Bruce Lee, the founder of Jeet Kune Do. Was he truly great or was he great for Martial Arts as a poster boy that is good for MA schools business?"

I am 32 so my dads generation knew 1st hand what really went on not me I don't know the answer. Is he inspirational, yes of course to many he is.

To see his speed and conditioning is just amazing.

By the way, I just called and talked to dad. Over the conversation I posed the same question. His answer was, "I wouldn't want to go back in time and fight them would you?"

 

[PeaceWarrior]

You all brought up some good points. I have thought about this often actually, and wondered how I will stack up to those high level masters of yesterday.

Heres what I think of it- Basically, today we live in a pampered society. People in the days of old usually trained for one reason - to protect their lives in battle. They were faced with the cold hard reality of death every single day, whether from an illness or attack. Their training was much more difficult, intensive and strenuous. Definetly more painful. I think as time has passed from past ages, as society grew more modern, the training slowly grew easier.

My sifu says when he was training if he did something wrong his teacher would punch him, and it wouldnt be no love tap, he would usually get knocked to the ground. In his bokken training, one time he turned his back on his teacher (bad bad idea) and he got hit so hard it knocked him out, he woke up hours later and could hardly move. Nowadays, if a teacher hits his student, whats to prevent that student from sueing him? The point is, we live in a pampered society. Now people train for different reasons, whether for health, self defence capabilities, or tournaments. People dont train for all out war anymore, because wars are fought with guns.

for these reasons, I believe that yes, the old masters certainly could do what is said about them, and they deserve mountains of respect for their skills, and sure maybe some of the stories were exaggerated, but thats to be expected. I can only hope that one day I will achieve one half of what they did.

 

[pstarr]

I think Charyuop nailed it...back in the day, there weren't any "competitions", per se, and your life - and the lives of your wife and children - might very well depend upon your skill. The training was geared towards life and death conflict and was very, very rugged.