Non-Wing Chun

[Steve]

In a thread asking why folks who don't train WC post in threads in the WC subforum, you guys seem to be getting seriously worked up about someone answering the question.

Also, for what it's worth, you guys aren't doing much to break down stereotypes right now, either. If that's your goal, you're missing the mark by a fair bit.

I'll go back to read only mode now.

 

[Callen]

Also, for what it's worth, you guys aren't doing much to break down stereotypes right now, either. If that's your goal, you're missing the mark by a fair bit.

How so, Steve?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a thread asking why folks who don't train WC post in threads in the WC subforum, you guys seem to be getting seriously worked up about someone answering the question.

If I start a "non-republic" thread, I assume that I want to invite non-republic members, and that should be democrat.

 

[ShortBridge]

Steve, in the thread that Hanzou started in the (not) Wing Chun forum looking for validation of MMA superiority (his words) over anything else you posted that training in TMA was the same as doing nothing at all in terms of fight efficacy and that it prepared you less than working out in a gym. You closed with:

...I think we all know that this is true. I mean, does anyone question that this is how it would go?

So, your views on all of us (TKD, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, everything in one bucket) are clear and there's no point in conversation. I didn't post in the other thread, because I'm not going to go into the MMA forum to argue for Wing Chun. I don't go anywhere to argue for Wing Chun. The question is what motivates you guys to come into the Wing Chun forum to undermine what we do? What would it take to get you to stop?

...
400 people, all about the same age, all with average fitness levels and health, train x4 days per week for 2 hours each day:

• Group 1: 100 trained 100 in any competitive style (e.g., muay thai, boxing, bjj, sambo, judo)
• Group 2: 100 in any non-competitive style (ninjutsu, aikido, krav maga)
• Group 3: 100 who trained in a performance based fitness program (crossfit, parkour, etc), and
• Group 4: 100 who don't train as a control group.

I think after a year, I think Groups 1 and 3 would be most capable of defending themselves in a fight and would perform pretty similarly. Group 2 would, I believe, be functionally the same as Group 4.

After 3 years, I think Group 1 pulls clearly ahead of Group 3. Groups 2 and 4 would still be indistinguishable.

After 5 years, the lines keep going. Group 1 at this point would begin to display actual expertise in the area. Group 3 would be very fit, but would have plateaued. The only question at 5 years that I would be interested in is whether Group 2 performs better than Group 4. That's a real question.

And, you know what? I think we all know that this is true. I mean, does anyone question that this is how it would go?

I know for a fact that no training does not equal the training that I've been through and that I share with people who seek it out with me. I know for a fact that Parkour does not equally prepare you for a fight as the training I've done. It doesn't matter to me that you feel differently, but sheesh, if that is the starting point of our conversation it is also the ending point.

 

[Hanzou]

Honestly, I'm not sure what your goal is at this point... why does it matter? Are you questioning the effectiveness of Wing Chun? If that's your real motif here, then it's a different discussion all together and does not require unproductive comparisons to competitive sports like MMA.

"Effectiveness" has a rather wide application. I would say that it doesn't have much fighting effectiveness, but for fitness, coordination, learning Chinese culture, etc. I'm sure it is effective in some areas. However, if you wish to become a professional fighter, WC isn't the most effective style for you to be practicing. Again, I have seen WC practitioners say this as well.

Well, there are a lot of systems/arts that aren't taught in a lot of gyms all over the world. I wouldn't expect to find Competition Karate in a Krav Maga gym either... I would have to make guesses to answer your extremely broad questions, but let's see:

Yes, that should tell you something.

Perhaps it's because most people in MMA do not want to invest the time to completely learn the WC system. Perhaps it is because MMA is comprised of things that can be learned easily, and WC isn't on the list of systems to half-learn, or sort-of "dabble" in. Perhaps it is because MMA coaches have absolutely zero knowledge of the WC system, and have no business attempting to teach "professional fighters" their poorly interpreted version of what they think WC is supposed to look like. If the professional fighters don't know what they're doing, then of course it won't work. You can't just make the stuff up and expect results, right?

I could write paragraphs of speculative answers to your two questions, but the bottom line is that MMA is not the bar for WC. Not only is it currently not the measure, it is doubtful that it will ever be. Most circles in the WC community simply don't care about MMA and it is trivial as to why it is, or is not seen in any competitive sport. It is most likely not taught in your gyms because WC practitioners don't want to participate in your games.

The need to compare a competitive sport against any established non-competitive Martial Art system is absolutely pointless and irrelevant. I will however, be happy to have a meaningful exchange with you to help you better understand the Wing Chun system and its applied effectiveness.

And this is me not being defensive.

Actually what really happened is that experienced WC practitioners attempted to enter MMA and they got dismantled, leading to people pursuing fighting to disregard it as something worthwhile to practice. Consider that if you can take up boxing and become a better striker in 6 months than you can in six years of WC, why would you bother with the latter?

I'm sure you'll say that it is because the "real" WC guys didn't show up to fight, but I have serious doubts that the WC community of instructors would pass up on the billion dollar MMA industry if they could partake in it. For example, Bjj instructors are often hired as MMA coaches, and they make quite a lot of money doing it. Also Bjj gyms benefit from their closeness with MMA and it helps drive their businesses, and is part of the reason you see an explosion of both Bjj and MMA gyms in most cities these days.

Wing Chun isn't a part of it because its simply not made for it. Considering the amount of attempts WC exponents have made to enter MMA and have utterly failed, it's no wonder that they say they don't care. It simply has too much baggage to be effective in that arena. Thus once again if a WC exponent wants to know where to go if they want to become a professional fighter, it's probably best to just tell them to go elsewhere.

 

[Steve]

Steve, in the thread that Hanzou started in the (not) Wing Chun forum looking for validation of MMA superiority (his words) over anything else you posted that training in TMA was the same as doing nothing at all in terms of fight efficacy and that it prepared you less than working out in a gym. You closed with:

So, your views on all of us (TKD, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, everything in one bucket) are clear and there's no point in conversation. I didn't post in the other thread, because I'm not going to go into the MMA forum to argue for Wing Chun. I don't go anywhere to argue for Wing Chun. The question is what motivates you guys to come into the Wing Chun forum to undermine what we do? What would it take to get you to stop?



I know for a fact that no training does not equal the training that I've been through and that I share with people who seek it out with me. I know for a fact that Parkour does not equally prepare you for a fight as the training I've done. It doesn't matter to me that you feel differently, but sheesh, if that is the starting point of our conversation it is also the ending point.

I think it's really odd that you are responding here to my post on another thread. I think it would just confuse things to respond here. If you're not interested in discussing, that's fine. But I encourage you to do it in the correct thread.

 

[Punchy]

"Effectiveness" has a rather wide application. I would say that it doesn't have much fighting effectiveness, but for fitness, coordination, learning Chinese culture, etc. I'm sure it is effective in some areas. However, if you wish to become a professional fighter, WC isn't the most effective

.

I don't hear anyone here saying they want to become a professional fighter.
Can't speak for everyone, but I'm learning wing tsun for the shear enjoyment of it.

And yes I get exercise, coordination,
flexiblility and a whole host of things from it...and believe it or not, I can fight.
Not as a professional, or as a sport competitor. but then I never set out to do that.

 

[Callen]

Effectiveness" has a rather wide application. I would say that it doesn't have much fighting effectiveness, but for fitness, coordination, learning Chinese culture, etc. I'm sure it is effective in some areas. However, if you wish to become a professional fighter, WC isn't the most effective style for you to be practicing. Again, I have seen WC practitioners say this as well.

Yeah, apparently we could do this forever and get nowhere...

No one in this thread has mentioned to you that they want to be a professional fighter. You're wasting your time with that here. You also might have better luck with your proselytizing elsewhere. If your agenda is pitching MMA while trying to somehow prove your confirmation bias that WC is not a good striking system, then you’re trolling in the wrong place.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't hear anyone here saying they want to become a professional fighter.
Can't speak for everyone, but I'm learning wing tsun for the shear enjoyment of it.

And yes I get exercise, coordination,
flexiblility and a whole host of things from it...and believe it or not, I can fight.
Not as a professional, or as a sport competitor. but then I never set out to do that.

Yeah, apparently we could do this forever and get nowhere...

No one in this thread has mentioned to you that they want to be a professional fighter. You're wasting your time with that here. You also might have better luck with your proselytizing elsewhere. If your agenda is pitching MMA while trying to somehow prove your confirmation bias that WC is not a good striking system, then you’re trolling in the wrong place.

I never said any of you did. I was simply responding to a question posed by the OP, and suddenly several of you got into your feelings because for some reason you viewed the mention of Bruce Lee and MMA as some sort of attack on Wing Chun.

Anyways, I think this conversation has run its course.

 

[Punchy]

Anyways, I think this conversation has run its course.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt

 

[Highlander]

TL;DR

 

[Poppity]

Yeah, I feel where you're coming from. It can be a challenge to have productive discussions on forums, but we can also use these opportunities to contribute towards the preservation of the Wing Chun system and breakdown the stereotypes.

I am all for having productive discussions from other arts and I am on occasion interested in having actual discussions with people from the MMA community if they can manage to have a two way conversation.

hanzou couldn't manage that. He was playing the big man, making stuff up, being ignorant and contradictory and then claiming everyone was being offended or defensive.

Your not going to get through to anyone like that.

For example this mma guy lays out some perceived flaws regarding wing chun in MMA competitions without being a douche about it.

Wing Chun in MMA: Effective, or Too Dangerous? - The MMA Guru.

I don't care about whether Wing chun is effective in a competitive format, the point is, if you do, like a lot of MMA guys, do you want to discuss it reasonably or hide behind your computer ridicule a martial art and then claim anyone who calls you out is being defensive.

 

[Steve]

You guys are being very

I am all for having productive discussions from other arts and I am on occasion interested in having actual discussions with people from the MMA community if they can manage to have a two way conversation.

hanzou couldn't manage that. He was playing the big man, making stuff up, being ignorant and contradictory and then claiming everyone was being offended or defensive.

Your not going to get through to anyone like that.

For example this mma guy lays out some perceived flaws regarding wing chun in MMA competitions without being a douche about it.

Wing Chun in MMA: Effective, or Too Dangerous? - The MMA Guru.

I don't care about whether Wing chun is effective in a competitive format, the point is, if you do, like a lot of MMA guys, do you want to discuss it reasonably or hide behind your computer ridicule a martial art and then claim anyone who calls you out is being defensive.

Do you guys care if wc is effective anywhere, or do you train for health, fitness, or fun.

 

[Hanzou]

I am all for having productive discussions from other arts and I am on occasion interested in having actual discussions with people from the MMA community if they can manage to have a two way conversation.

hanzou couldn't manage that. He was playing the big man, making stuff up, being ignorant and contradictory and then claiming everyone was being offended or defensive.

Your not going to get through to anyone like that.

For example this mma guy lays out some perceived flaws regarding wing chun in MMA competitions without being a douche about it.

Wing Chun in MMA: Effective, or Too Dangerous? - The MMA Guru.

I don't care about whether Wing chun is effective in a competitive format, the point is, if you do, like a lot of MMA guys, do you want to discuss it reasonably or hide behind your computer ridicule a martial art and then claim anyone who calls you out is being defensive.

Anytime an article makes an excuse that a martial art is "too deadly for competition", you know you're dealing with people making up excuses instead of looking at the underlying reasons why their art fails in a very public venue.

 

[Poppity]

You guys are being very

Do you guys care if wc is effective anywhere, or do you train for health, fitness, or fun.

I love your optimism and belief in yourself...but...

Just because some great athletes train in a similar sports to you, doesn't mean that you are a great athlete or a great fighter. But don't let that stop you.

 

[Poppity]

Anytime an article makes an excuse that a martial art is "too deadly for competition", you know you're dealing with people making up excuses instead of looking at the underlying reasons why their art fails in a very public venue.

Yeah... But the article doesn't say that... Wow, look Im sorry I was joking earlier, I didn't realise you actually had a problem reading.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah... But the article doesn't say that... Wow, look Im sorry I was joking earlier, I didn't realise you actually had a problem reading.

A few paragraphs down;

It Wasn’t Designed for Competition

Wing Chun does not have ‘rules’ and was not designed for use in competition.

In fact, the art of Wing Chun focuses on landing strikes to ‘illegal’ areas, such as the groin and throat. Of course, this is a huge drawback in a sanctioned competition. If you can’t use core elements of a martial art due to the rule-set, you’re unlikely to get far!

For example, each of the below areas is considered as a ‘primary striking target’ in Wing Chun – but all are illegal in most MMA competitions:

• Back of the head
• Fingers
• Throat
• Groin

And then the article erroneously talks about how various fighters claimed that Wing Chun techniques should be banned from MMA. They didn't advocate to ban WC techniques, they advocated to ban "dirty" techniques. Then the article erroneously attributes the success of certain fighters to Wing Chun. I can state with complete confidence that Anderson Silva was successful in MMA because of Muay Thai and BJJ, not because of his dabbling in Wing Chun.

 

[Poppity]

A few paragraphs down;


And then the article erroneously talks about how various fighters claimed that Wing Chun techniques should be banned from MMA. They didn't advocate to ban WC techniques, they advocated to ban "dirty" techniques. Then the article erroneously attributes the success of certain fighters to Wing Chun. I can state with complete confidence that Anderson Silva was successful in MMA because of Muay Thai and BJJ, not because of his dabbling in Wing Chun.

This is awkward. I thought you didn't read it. I didn't realise you tried to read it and completely misunderstood the contents.

I feel really bad about making fun of your reading ability, I get it, life's hard enough without people pointing it out.

 

[Steve]

I love your optimism and belief in yourself...but...

Just because some great athletes train in a similar sports to you, doesn't mean that you are a great athlete or a great fighter. But don't let that stop you.

I haven’t said anything about me. I asked a question.

but I like the way you’re thinking. Now let’s apply that same logic to wing chun.

 

[Steve]

This is awkward. I thought you didn't read it. I didn't realise you tried to read it and completely misunderstood the contents.

I feel really bad about making fun of your reading ability, I get it, life's hard enough without people pointing it out.

Snark is an appropriate handle for you. You seem entirely disinterested in having a rational discussion.