Non-Wing Chun

[Hanzou]

Bruce Lee created JKD because he moved to the US as a teenager and had no opportunity to continue formal training. He tried to return to it, but was denied. As a WC I can't tell you how exhausting it is to have to keep saying that.

Hey, I'm only going by what Lee said himself about his training. I know some in the WC community had an issue with Lee for whatever reason, but that's your thing.

I can also tell you that I don't give a **** about the UFC. I did 3 or 4 years of boxing and about the same amount of Muay Thai before I took my first Wing Chun class.

Good to know. Nobody was talking about you specifically.

I chose Wing Chun because I like it and it works for me. It was an informed decision. Aside from a few crackpots or highly commercial lineages, none of us are trying to convince people who prefer something else that we are superior, but we get torn down by MMA people and people with opinions about Bruce Lee rentlessly.

None of you as in your circle of friends perhaps, but there are Chunners out there trying to establish WC in MMA for a variety of reasons.

 

[ShortBridge]

...

None of you as in your circle of friends perhaps, but there are Chunners out there trying to establish WC in MMA for a variety of reasons.

Good for them. When they show up and start posting on Martial Talk troll them with my blessing. They don't appear to represent anyone who is active in the Wing Chun form here, though

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Anyone with a year of boxing and wrestling experience could beat a 20-year martial artist."

Old Chinese saying said:

三年拳不如当年跤。十年跤不如十年拳

- 3 years of striking art training cannot match against 1 year of wrestling art training.
- 10 years of wrestling art training cannot match against 10 year of striking art training.

The reason is simple.

- After you have trained the striking art for 3 years, you still don't have the ability to stop your wrestling opponent from entering.
- After you have trained the wrestling art for 10 years, you still don't have the ability to enter your striking art opponent's punch and kick.

A striker has to prevent a wrestler from obtaining a clinch. A wrestler has to deal with a striker's kicking and punching.

This is why a pure striker, or a pure wrestler is not a good idea. We should encourage cross training. We should not say whether wrestling art is better, or striking art is better.

 

[Hanzou]

Good for them. When they show up and start posting on Martial Talk troll them with my blessing. They don't appear to represent anyone who is active in the Wing Chun form here, though

Why would I troll them? I'd rather help them reach their goal by pushing them to practice something else entirely.

 

[ShortBridge]

Oh, I see. You're not being a jerk by posting things in the Wing Chun forum that are completely dismissive of the training we do. You're trying to help us because you're a nice guy and you care about us.

Okay, that's very different, thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, I see. You're not being a jerk by posting things in the Wing Chun forum that are completely dismissive of the training we do. You're trying to help us because you're a nice guy and you care about us.

Okay, that's very different, thank you for clearing that up.

Um where was I dismissive of your training? All I've said is that WC isn't a good fit for MMA, and if a WC practitioner is looking to be successful in that sphere, it's probably best to advise them to train in something else.

This is nothing different than what Chunners say themselves.

 

[Jens]

Bruce Lee had maybe 2 or 3 years wing chun max under his belt.
He didn't have any footwork to speak of from wing chun because he never saw it...but rather than say he never saw it he said wing chun didn't have it.

I agree 100%! if you look at his basic wing chun footwork in this clip, you can clearly observed that he had a superficial understanding of the limited wing chun footwork that he did know. He seems to be more preoccupied with the flashy arm dominance stuff here over solid footwork. Due to his lack of wing chun footwork understanding he was not able to fully apply his wing chun, so therefore he was forced to adapted a different longer range method which worked for him known as JKD. However with that being said, the way he later revamped his personal understanding of combat by implementing fencing and boxing footwork and concepts to create JKD was quite brilliant in my opinion.

 

[Jens]

Old Chinese saying said:

三年拳不如当年跤。十年跤不如十年拳

- 3 years of striking art training cannot match against 1 year of wrestling art training.
- 10 years of wrestling art training cannot match against 10 year of striking art training.

The reason is simple.

- After you have trained the striking art for 3 years, you still don't have the ability to stop your wrestling opponent from entering.
- After you have trained the wrestling art for 10 years, you still don't have the ability to enter your striking art opponent's punch and kick.

A striker has to prevent a wrestler from obtaining a clinch. A wrestler has to deal with a striker's kicking and punching.

This is why a pure striker, or a pure wrestler is not a good idea. We should encourage cross training. We should not say whether wrestling art is better, or striking art is better.

Yes! and in wing chun we train both grappling and striking simultaneously, so even our training methods are designed to be more efficient than in many other martial arts systems.

 

[Callen]

They have a genuine desire to be viewed as an effective MA by the MA community at large, but are seemingly held back by the dogma of their system. It's almost exactly what happened to Bruce Lee, which led him to found his own system of Martial Arts.

Your statement gives the feels of stereotype based assumptions.

You know what they say, once you have found any exception, you can no longer generalize. No one that I know within the Wing Chun community has a "genuine desire to be viewed as an effective MA". Most dedicated WC practitioners are invovled for different reasons all together, and really don't care. Usually these conversations are unfortunately centered around MMA rhetoric, which is an absolutely old and exhausting topic. There is far too much judgment from people with no experience attempting to educate the WC community about our own system.

Likewise, dogmatism is the arrogant assertion of opinions as truths... so, it's quite presumptuous and egotistical of you to visit a WC forum, use the word "dogma" to describe your encounters with WC practitioners online and expect to be taken seriously. That's not the most productive way to get in and start up, but hey, maybe you're doing your best. Either way, there's zero humility in your post. Unless you have years of time invested in the WC system, your opinions on what you think is actual truth, have no real value.

Bruce Lee's creation of JKD is often brought up as some sort of argument for a justification to leave WC, because some people believe that meant Bruce Lee thought WC didn't have what it took. However if you understand the foundation of JKD, it's not hard to discover that he never actually abandoned WC. In fact, most of the JKD authorities will agree that WC is still the base. Certain things worked for him and certain things didn't. Bruce Lee found his own system because, well... Bruce Lee. He set his own goal posts, he was on his own path of self-discovery, he was bitter at the WC community and wanted to make his own way. Simple stuff really.

That said, we can have productive discussions about the WC system though if you like; but you won't gain any knowledge unless you come at it with a different attitude first, yeah.

 

[Hanzou]

Your statement gives the feels of stereotype based assumptions.

You know what they say, once you have found any exception, you can no longer generalize. No one that I know within the Wing Chun community has a "genuine desire to be viewed as an effective MA". Most dedicated WC practitioners are invovled for different reasons all together, and really don't care. Usually these conversations are unfortunately centered around MMA rhetoric, which is an absolutely old and exhausting topic. There is far too much judgment from people with no experience attempting to educate the WC community about our own system.

That statement comes from the fact that of all traditional martial arts, it is always the Wing Chun exponents who step up to the plate and test their art against sport styles. In the recent MMA vs TMA exhibition phase that swept China last year, the majority of TMA practitioners who took on the challenge were Wing Chun stylists. In addition, when it comes to MMA, the main TMA stylists still emerging to try to be successful in MMA are Wing Chun stylists. I'm rather surprised at the response from my statement. What I said wasn't meant to offend, I think its commendable that WC practitioners retain the gusto to step up to the plate when traditional Chinese martial arts are challenged.

I mean, their performance in these exhibition matches aren't very commendable, but like I said, them having the guts to take those challenges is honorable, and should be respected (even if they do get knocked out rather quickly).

Likewise, dogmatism is the arrogant assertion of opinions as truths... so, it's quite presumptuous and egotistical of you to visit a WC forum, use the word "dogma" to describe your encounters with WC practitioners online and expect to be taken seriously. That's not the most productive way to get in and start up, but hey, maybe you're doing your best. Either way, there's zero humility in your post. Unless you have years of time invested in the WC system, your opinions on what you think is actual truth, have no real value.

When I say dogma, I'm talking about the strict orthodoxy that WC practitioners adhere to, which appears to be highly grounded in traditional practices. It doesn't appear that many want to go beyond the traditions and mores of traditional WC, and from what I see on this forum, they choose to argue incessantly about the meaning of this or that form.

Bruce Lee's creation of JKD is often brought up as some sort of argument for a justification to leave WC, because some people believe that meant Bruce Lee thought WC didn't have what it took. However if you understand the foundation of JKD, it's not hard to discover that he never actually abandoned WC. In fact, most of the JKD authorities will agree that WC is still the base. Certain things worked for him and certain things didn't. Bruce Lee found his own system because, well... Bruce Lee. He set his own goal posts, he was on his own path of self-discovery, he was bitter at the WC community and wanted to make his own way. Simple stuff really.

That said, we can have productive discussions about the WC system though if you like; but you won't gain any knowledge unless you come at it with a different attitude first, yeah.

I only brought up Bruce Lee as an example of a WC exponent who decided to incorporate other forms of MA to fill up the perceived gaps in his base art. If a WC exponent seeks to be successful in MMA, Bruce Lee's path is probably the route they want to take.

 

[ShortBridge]

Um where was I dismissive of your training? All I've said is that WC isn't a good fit for MMA, and if a WC practitioner is looking to be successful in that sphere, it's probably best to advise them to train in something else.

...

Okay, this sub-forum at Martial Talk is dedicated to practitioners of Wing Chun. This thread was specifically started by one such practitioner who asked why non-Wing Chun practitioners post (almost always negative) responses vs just sticking to discussions on what you do.

No one here is trying to promote Wing Chun as a way of winning the UFC. You said something like "yes, but Alan Orr does." But, Alan Orr is not a member here to my knowledge, so you're not arguing with him, you're arguing with us. Bruce Lee is not a member either and there is a JKD forum where people may state their beliefs about BL and I would say they are fair game for anybody with a perspective to share, but again, in general I don't see our Wing Chun members claiming Bruce Lee as our own. Personally, I would rather keep him out of our discussions, because I know average, intermediate students have have years more knowledge of and experience with Wing Chun than he did. So, whether you recognize that you are doing it or not, you're not arguing with those guys, you and a handful of others are just trolling those of us who train in Wing Chun and have made an effort by joining MartialTalk to connect with other people who do as well.

Do you see the problem here?

 

[Hanzou]

Okay, this sub-forum at Martial Talk is dedicated to practitioners of Wing Chun. This thread was specifically started by one such practitioner who asked why non-Wing Chun practitioners post (almost always negative) responses vs just sticking to discussions on what you do.

And if you look at my original post, that's what I was talking about. I'm a bit surprised that you took such offense to it.

No one here is trying to promote Wing Chun as a way of winning the UFC. You said something like "yes, but Alan Orr does." But, Alan Orr is not a member here to my knowledge, so you're not arguing with him, you're arguing with us. Bruce Lee is not a member either and there is a JKD forum where people may state their beliefs about BL and I would say they are fair game for anybody with a perspective to share, but again, in general I don't see our Wing Chun members claiming Bruce Lee as our own. Personally, I would rather keep him out of our discussions, because I know average, intermediate students have have years more knowledge of and experience with Wing Chun than he did. So, whether you recognize that you are doing it or not, you're not arguing with those guys, you and a handful of others are just trolling those of us who train in Wing Chun and have made an effort by joining MartialTalk to connect with other people who do as well.

You're a bit confused. I said that I only participate in WC topics if MMA is involved, and that I noticed that the WC community at large (fyi not the community here on the boards), seemed to have a genuine desire to be viewed as an effective MA. I never mentioned anyone on this forum, and I was only responding to Highlander's question. I've explained where that view comes from in an earlier post. You appear to have grossly misunderstood what I was talking about, but I've come to understand that you guys are a very sensitive bunch.

 

[ShortBridge]

We're just worn down from being trolled here. And, to be clear, you are posting here. You're not posting someplace else where these people who you refer to are. So, deny, deny, deny, you are talking to us, not Alan Orr or whoever else you are trying to set on the right path. I'm not sure why our forum moderators don't take a more active role, but they don't so here we are.

The Wing Chun forum gets called out for being slow or dead. It reminds us why we registered here in the first place, so we try to start a conversation, and it becomes a referendum on MMA, every time. So, most of us drift away. <repeat>

...I'm talking about the strict orthodoxy that WC practitioners adhere to, which appears to be highly grounded in traditional practices. It doesn't appear that many want to go beyond the traditions and mores of traditional WC, and from what I see on this forum, they choose to argue incessantly about the meaning of this or that form...

Let me tell you something about how you train...oh wait, i can't because I have no idea what you do or don't do in your club. What makes you think you know so much about us? Bonus points if you can answer without saying "Alan Orr", "Bruce Lee" or referring to people who aren't active members of TB Wing Chun forum discussions.

 

[Hanzou]

We're just worn down from being trolled here. And, to be clear, you are posting here. You're not posting someplace else where these people who you refer to are. So, deny, deny, deny, you are talking to us, not Alan Orr or whoever else you are trying to set on the right path. I'm not sure why our forum moderators don't take a more active role, but they don't so here we are.

The Wing Chun forum gets called out for being slow or dead. It reminds us why we registered here in the first place, so we try to start a conversation, and it becomes a referendum on MMA, every time. So, most of us drift away. <repeat>

I'm posting here in only this thread because a poster was curious about why some non WC exponents posted in this forum. While I haven't posted here in a few years, I have posted in the MMA specific threads.

Let me tell you something about how you train...oh wait, i can't because I have no idea what you do or don't do in your club. What makes you think you know so much about us? Bonus points if you can answer without saying "Alan Orr", "Bruce Lee" or referring to people who aren't active members of TB Wing Chun forum discussions.

It's mainly feedback from fighters and ex-WC practitioners on why they don't choose WC as their striking art of choice when it is time to develop a career as a professional fighter.

 

[ShortBridge]

Okay.

 

[Callen]

When I say dogma, I'm talking about the strict orthodoxy that WC practitioners adhere to, which appears to be highly grounded in traditional practices.

Like what, for example?

It doesn't appear that many want to go beyond the traditions and mores of traditional WC, and from what I see on this forum, they choose to argue incessantly about the meaning of this or that form.

You would have to know what the true traditions and mores of WC are in order to make that kind of assumption, and based on your use of the word dogma, I'm not so sure you have a complete idea of what WC is all about. There is no such thing as "Traditional" or "Modern" Wing Chun, only Wing Chun. It has always been an adaptive, concept based system. Perhaps you have been exposed to WC through someone (or several people) with a limited understanding.

 

[Hanzou]

Like what, for example?

You would have to know what the true traditions and mores of WC are in order to make that kind of assumption, and based on your use of the word dogma, I'm not so sure you have a complete idea of what WC is all about. There is no such thing as "Traditional" or "Modern" Wing Chun, only Wing Chun. It has always been an adaptive, concept based system. Perhaps you have been exposed to WC through someone (or several people) with a limited understanding.[/QUOTE]

Instead of me fumbling through the terminologies and intricacies of your martial art, how about I pose a simple question for you?

Why is Wing Chun not considered a viable striking style by professional fighters?

For example, these are the top MMA gyms;

Training Programs - Alliance MMA Gym
Huntington Beach — Kings Mma
http://novauniao.com
Home
Roufusport MMA Mixed Martial Arts Academy
https://www.sbgireland.com
https://www.jacksonwink.com
etc.

And Wing Chun is taught in none of them. Why is that? Please don't get defensive. I'm very curious about what your answer would be.

 

[Poppity]

Like what, for example?

You would have to know what the true traditions and mores of WC are in order to make that kind of assumption, and based on your use of the word dogma, I'm not so sure you have a complete idea of what WC is all about. There is no such thing as "Traditional" or "Modern" Wing Chun, only Wing Chun. It has always been an adaptive, concept based system. Perhaps you have been exposed to WC through someone (or several people) with a limited understanding.

God....
He's not still going on is he? I couldn't face anymore of him constantly moving the goal posts because he was so desperate to talk about MMA in a wing chun forum... I had to put him on ignore.

Geez...no one in this wing chun forum is interested in mma... so he made up some wing chun friends who were. Just sad.

Original question: why do non wing chun guys come to wing chun forums to
divert the discussions in wing chun forums?

conclusion: some people aren't very interesting or self aware yet they still feel the need to be the center of attention.

 

[Callen]

Honestly, I'm not sure what your goal is at this point... why does it matter? Are you questioning the effectiveness of Wing Chun? If that's your real motif here, then it's a different discussion all together and does not require unproductive comparisons to competitive sports like MMA.

Instead of me fumbling through the terminologies and intricacies of your martial art, how about I pose a simple question for you?

Why is Wing Chun not considered a viable striking style by professional fighters?

For example, these are the top MMA gyms;

Training Programs - Alliance MMA Gym
Huntington Beach — Kings Mma
http://novauniao.com
Home
Roufusport MMA Mixed Martial Arts Academy
https://www.sbgireland.com
https://www.jacksonwink.com
etc.

And Wing Chun is taught in none of them. Why is that? Please don't get defensive. I'm very curious about what your answer would be.

Well, there are a lot of systems/arts that aren't taught in a lot of gyms all over the world. I wouldn't expect to find Competition Karate in a Krav Maga gym either... I would have to make guesses to answer your extremely broad questions, but let's see:

Perhaps it's because most people in MMA do not want to invest the time to completely learn the WC system. Perhaps it is because MMA is comprised of things that can be learned easily, and WC isn't on the list of systems to half-learn, or sort-of "dabble" in. Perhaps it is because MMA coaches have absolutely zero knowledge of the WC system, and have no business attempting to teach "professional fighters" their poorly interpreted version of what they think WC is supposed to look like. If the professional fighters don't know what they're doing, then of course it won't work. You can't just make the stuff up and expect results, right?

I could write paragraphs of speculative answers to your two questions, but the bottom line is that MMA is not the bar for WC. Not only is it currently not the measure, it is doubtful that it will ever be. Most circles in the WC community simply don't care about MMA and it is trivial as to why it is, or is not seen in any competitive sport. It is most likely not taught in your gyms because WC practitioners don't want to participate in your games.

The need to compare a competitive sport against any established non-competitive Martial Art system is absolutely pointless and irrelevant. I will however, be happy to have a meaningful exchange with you to help you better understand the Wing Chun system and its applied effectiveness.

And this is me not being defensive.

 

[Callen]

God....
He's not still going on is he? I couldn't face anymore of him constantly moving the goal posts because he was so desperate to talk about MMA in a wing chun forum... I had to put him on ignore.

Yeah, I feel where you're coming from. It can be a challenge to have productive discussions on forums, but we can also use these opportunities to contribute towards the preservation of the Wing Chun system and breakdown the stereotypes.