Ninjutsu vs BJJ

[MJS]

You should judge an argument on the strength of its logic, not the resume of the one who said it. You'll have to judge for yourself if my opinions have any value.

The point is this. If someone who has 3 months training in an art, how can they honestly know the ins and outs of the system? This is all compared to someone that has 20yrs in a system. I have over 20yrs put into Kenpo. IMHO, I feel that I'm much more qualified to comment on that art than say someone with 1 month.

Mike

 

[Rubber Tanto]

One thing I will say on this matter is that the ground game of BJJ does mesh nicely with Budo Taijutsu's overall Taijutsu skills. They meld together nicely actually. There is also a huge advantage when bringing the non sporting mind set of the Budo Taijutsu pracitioner and pairing it up with the newaza skills of the BJJ'er. The only problem is getting rid of the competitive sport only mindset of the BJJ practitioner. However if you have left that behind there is quite a bit to learn from BJJ.

You know, Brian...I have been thinking this very thought the whole time while reading this thread. This has been my experience too...in particular when being taken down...you suddenly see all these opportunities, know what I mean?
Awesome post. Couldn't agree more.

 

[bencole]

grappling occurs so often in fighting (as documented)

Pure hogwash. Please provide a source of information that is not characterized by selection bias (see below).

So, like so many others, you're basing your thoughts off of what others have found? Wouldn't it make more sense to research for yourself? Its impossible to know how everyone trains.

What would be even better is if individuals posting statistics actually understood what "selection bias" is....

There is a best-selling business book entitled, "From Good to Great" that is a great example of selection bias.

The author of this book took a bunch of then "successful firms" (GE, Xerox, etc.), looked at what they had in common, and then wrote a book saying, "If you do what they do and have X (e.g., a dedicated M&A division, international operations, skunks works, separated CEO-Chairman positions, and a thousand other things), you will be successful too!"

The problem is that he didn't "control for" all of the firms that also had X but FAILED. Moreover, he didn't "control for" all the firms that elected *NOT* to have X in the first place, but succeeded.

That means that there are two types of "selection bias." The former is known as "survival bias" because you are only looking at firms that have X *AND* are successful. The latter is known as "self-selection bias" because whether or not a firm chooses to engage in a behavior (i.e., X) affects the results if you are only looking at those who choose to engage in such behavior.

For example, if you decide to study real-world fights by looking at police officer use of force reports -- almost any of them will necessarily involve some form of grappling. Why? 'Cause a cop's goal is to contain, control and arrest the suspect.

Precisely. This is "self-selection bias"--cops will grab because they have to subdue the guy....

Similarly, it is not surprising that grunts will grab, and then report back to their superiors that the confrontation involved grappling. If a grunt has his weapon, he's going to shoot it. The only reason he is grappling is that is what he was trained to do.

I doubt highly that some dude in a robe in Iraq is going to willingly tackle a U.S. grunt wearing 100+ pounds of gear. So it is the grunts who are tackling people. Why? Because they are trained to do that....

If you can't see how statistics of groups can guide an individual in choices, than I guess the conversation stops there.

If you can't see how statistics need to be interpreted in light of various caveats, then I guess the conversation stops there...and your statistics need to be flushed down the toilet.

Sorry, dude.

You know, one major thing I have learned from this thread that I had no idea about was how interested in weapons ninjutsu practioners are.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is, at base, at weapons art. Even a child will pick up something and want to use it as a weapon to give itself an advantage. Why not learn to use things around you to advantage? You've based your arguments on supposed "logic". It seems pretty logical to me to want to learn how to use things around you to advantage and would prefer to keep that advantage even in a "fake experiment" of 50 people in a crowded place or open field....

My real problem with this scenario is that I don't see how this came to be in the first place. Does the BJJ guy want my wallet? He can have it. $25 and a credit card that will be null and void as soon as I get to the phone. Big score.

Also -- why am I alone? Why is he? Why don't I have my keys and cell phone if I'm outdoors? If I scream, will people hear me nearby? Can I outrun this guy? If I offended this dude at a bar, then why am I stupid enough to get into beefs if I don't have friends to back me up? Why did I let this turn into a bar beef anyway?

Maybe these aren't typical "warrior" reactions, but they fulfill my objective of staying safe and thwart his objective of harming me. Voluntarily getting into a to-the-death fight with a BJJer is not a way to stay safe, so I wouldn't do it.

And if the guy ambushes me into a ground match, well, I'm at a disadvantage already. If I were to ambush him out of the blue with a knife or "dirty trick," he'd be pretty screwed too.

Wow! What a great post!!!

I don't know who you are, meta asethete, but you are a very wise creature..... Thanks for posting!

-ben

 

[DWeidman]

If the BJJ guy has no training in weapons - which is possible - then I agree, the ninja guy/ gal would have an advantage.

Who said anything about No training? How much training is part of BJJ for weapons -- or multiple attackers - for that matter).

Group on Group fighting favors strikers.

My experiment is about two guys, no weapons, no rules, two different systems--a simple, basic test.

You are talking about the elite of our system and the elite of BJJ - right? So... Spec Ops v. Vale Tudo winners? Outdoors? Natural weapons included (tree branches - sticks)?

There is virtually no doubt that BJJ will win against a BJKer in a fair, vale tudo fight. The more elements we add into the mix - however - the BJK guy gains percentages back. The easiest example is our art doesn't fall apart with the inclusion of a knife. BJJ falls apart as soon as a knife (or a friend) is introduced...

So the question remaining is how often do you see fair, one on one fights (outside of the ring)?

By the way -- I love rolling. I just know where the boundaries for its usefulness end.

-DW

 

[Bigshadow]

Why do so many people seem to assume that all taijutsu ground tactics are based around eye pokes, biting and groin attacks?

I don't know... Trying to figure that one out myself...

 

[Bigshadow]

But the best thing is, the principles of BJJ work on the ground or upright.

From what I understand so does BBT principles.

 

[Senin]

I don't know... Trying to figure that one out myself...

I keep hearing, "who said that the ninjutsu practioner will do eye pokes, biting, groin attackes". Okay then, what would the ninjutsu practioner do? I have yet to hear that one. I think it is pretty obvious what the BJJer will do. I have yet to hear a defense.

And who was it that said: "The easiest example is our art doesn't fall apart with the inclusion of a knife. BJJ falls apart as soon as a knife (or a friend) is introduced..." I would beg to differ. Those Brazilian BJJ'ers are some of the toughest bad asses around.... learned on the tough streets in Brazil. Do you really think they haven't trained for the real world? Do you really think they haven't thought about what to do against a knife? Come on, get real. I certainly wouldn't say their art falls apart when a knife is introduced.

 

[Bigshadow]

I keep hearing, "who said that the ninjutsu practioner will do eye pokes, biting, groin attackes". Okay then, what would the ninjutsu practioner do? I have yet to hear that one. I think it is pretty obvious what the BJJer will do. I have yet to hear a defense.

A defense to what specifically? I gave you an answer in my first post in this thread, it was vague, I know... Sort of like your scenario... You can glean the answers from my initial post.

 

[Kreth]

And who was it that said: "The easiest example is our art doesn't fall apart with the inclusion of a knife. BJJ falls apart as soon as a knife (or a friend) is introduced..." I would beg to differ. Those Brazilian BJJ'ers are some of the toughest bad asses around.... learned on the tough streets in Brazil. Do you really think they haven't trained for the real world? Do you really think they haven't thought about what to do against a knife? Come on, get real. I certainly wouldn't say their art falls apart when a knife is introduced.

So now we're only talking about Brazilian BJJ practitioners? :idunno:
Why don't you just ask how a BJK practitioner would do against one of the Gracies and get it over with.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

From what I understand so does BBT principles.

Absolutely!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Okay then, what would the ninjutsu practioner do?

Now I'm convinced. You really do need to train more.

I think it is pretty obvious what the BJJer will do.

You don't know that for sure either. Flying armbar, anyone?

 

[bencole]

I keep hearing, "who said that the ninjutsu practioner will do eye pokes, biting, groin attackes". Okay then, what would the ninjutsu practioner do? I have yet to hear that one. I think it is pretty obvious what the BJJer will do. I have yet to hear a defense.

So what exactly do you want us to write? Precise locations that we would strike on our opponent's body when they came in for a takedown and we sprawled? Silly....

Or how about: When he comes in to do a takedown, I control the distance and then knee him in the face. Is that what you want us to write? Silly mathematical equations of "they do this, I do that"?

I've definitely learned a few things in our art that would not benefit someone with his head near my waist....

Naturally, what I will do is determined at the point in time when I face the danger. If this guy is trying to kill me, honestly kill me, [unmentionables will happen].

-ben

 

[flashlock]

Right from the start you lost me. I do not fight to prove myself against others. I do not fight to feed my ego. I fight only if it is the last option and I need to get home to my family alive and in one piece. Running away is a damn good option for me in that case. If I can't run away, then the other guy using a weapon is a very, very real option I need to be aware of and train against. You throwing out all of that reduces it to a case where one person wants to prove him manhood over someone else. I avoid that by swallowing some pride if needed and expecting anything else if that does not work.



Back to this statement. Where is the documentation that the US Army has on the matter? I looked through this thread and despite calls for you to produce facts to back up what you said, you seem to have missed posting any sort of proof for the above statement.

Before we go any farther, please back up what you say or admit you can't and drop the subject, eh?

The question wasn't why someone studies Ninjutsu or BJJ, the question that I posed was simply which would be better in a street fight.

You should look through the thread again, I cite a book, the authors, and the page number where I got my information from. Do you need me to post you the book itself with a bow on it?

 

[flashlock]

One thing I will say on this matter is that the ground game of BJJ does mesh nicely with Budo Taijutsu's overall Taijutsu skills. They meld together nicely actually. There is also a huge advantage when bringing the non sporting mind set of the Budo Taijutsu pracitioner and pairing it up with the newaza skills of the BJJ'er. The only problem is getting rid of the competitive sport only mindset of the BJJ practitioner. However if you have left that behind there is quite a bit to learn from BJJ.

I agree, and that's how I first started really looking at BJJ--through SKH's blackbelt DVD course--he covers it pretty well at an elementary level, and it fits in well with ninjutsu/ to-shin do.

 

[flashlock]

A few questions for you. You state that you have studied both Ninjutsu and BJJ. How much time have you put into each art? How long have you been training overall?

And thanks, I am have much success and happiness in the arts I do.

Mike

Not biting, good try though! My experience has nothing to do with the argument; I find it rather ugly that you're asking. If I studied under Hatsumi for 10 years, it would not make my argument any stronger or weaker, so I will avoid this silly bait, ta.

 

[MJS]

And who was it that said: "The easiest example is our art doesn't fall apart with the inclusion of a knife. BJJ falls apart as soon as a knife (or a friend) is introduced..." I would beg to differ. Those Brazilian BJJ'ers are some of the toughest bad asses around.... learned on the tough streets in Brazil. Do you really think they haven't trained for the real world? Do you really think they haven't thought about what to do against a knife? Come on, get real. I certainly wouldn't say their art falls apart when a knife is introduced.

Big difference between the arts. BJJ is primarily a grappling based art not a weapon based one. BTW, how much time have you spent training in BJJ or BBT for that matter? Seeing that you didn't seem to hold much faith in parries, I dont think you will hold much faith in what people are saying here either.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Not biting, good try though! My experience has nothing to do with the argument; I find it rather ugly that you're asking. If I studied under Hatsumi for 10 years, it would not make my argument any stronger or weaker, so I will avoid this silly bait, ta.

Thats ok, as it wasnt bait but a legit question. Experience has alot to do with comments. Basically the more exp. one has, the more weight the comments hold. By your lack of a reply, that speaks enough.

Mike

 

[flashlock]

The point is this. If someone who has 3 months training in an art, how can they honestly know the ins and outs of the system? This is all compared to someone that has 20yrs in a system. I have over 20yrs put into Kenpo. IMHO, I feel that I'm much more qualified to comment on that art than say someone with 1 month.

Mike

You don't need to know the ins and outs of a system to look at data that says most fights have aspects of grappling, no fights have striking alone (in a life and death war situation). Then to hypothosize that since grappling is so crucial to fighting, a grappler (BJJ) should have an advantage over an art that does not specialize in grappling (Ninpo). Ergo, BJJ has an advantage over Ninjutsu for one on one street fighting (the point of my thought experiment). You require no experience or a blackblet, only a few facts (see previous posts, i.e US Military reports) and some logic.

 

[Don Roley]

The question wasn't why someone studies Ninjutsu or BJJ, the question that I posed was simply which would be better in a street fight.

You should look through the thread again, I cite a book, the authors, and the page number where I got my information from. Do you need me to post you the book itself with a bow on it?

So H2H page 9 is an official Army documentation of all the fights in Iraq and Afghanistan? Ben Cole touched on the subject better than I.

And your question about which would do better in a street fight- as I said, if you want to toss out the possibility of multiple opponents, weapons and running away- then your idea of a street fight is different than mine. I always train with the idea that there may be a weapon pulled in the middle of it, other guys might jump in and I always try to leave open the idea of getting the hell out of there rather than try to beat the other guy into the ground.

 

[Don Roley]

You don't need to know the ins and outs of a system to look at data that says most fights have aspects of grappling, no fights have striking alone (in a life and death war situation). Then to hypothosize that since grappling is so crucial to fighting, a grappler (BJJ) should have an advantage over an art that does not specialize in grappling (Ninpo). Ergo, BJJ has an advantage over Ninjutsu for one on one street fighting (the point of my thought experiment).

I can see the error of your logic.

First of all, grappling can be defined as one guy grabbing the other guy in any way, manner or form. You watch some of those police reality shows and you will most often see them roll up on two guys grabbing each other with one hand and trying to hit with the other.

Hitting and striking seems to be a big part of every conflict as well as grabbing. BBT has both in about equal measures. The advantage BJJ has in in newaza.

And of course, if you simply want to define a street fight as one on one, then you are trying to define something so that it fits your prefered bias instead of looking at it realistically.

Your bias seems obvious. How many fights did your sources say were only one on one? Or had no weapons? Or had no hitting? I would say it probably was not covered and yet you assumed that this is the situation.