Ninjutsu vs BJJ

[flashlock]

Sir, its apparent that you are set in your ways and you do not wish to see anything else. I wish you the best in your training.

I'm not too set in anything--that's what's great about being a beginner, no agenda; I can be a bit more objective since I have no major investment in BJJ or Ninjutsu. I looked at whatever theoretical facts I could, I've studied both systems and practiced with some of the best advocates of Ninjutsu and BJJ, and this is the conclusion I've reached based on some of the factors I've outlinned above.

I wish you success and happiness in your training, sir!

 

[flashlock]

I think it really comes down to the problem you want to solve. If somebody asks me which is the best martial art I would ask them what are their goals. If I wanted to compete in mixed martial arts competition Ninjutsu would be off my consideration list. If I wanted to learn to use various weapons Ninjutsu might rate alot higher. I would not ask Royce Gracie to teach me how to use a Naginata as much as I would not ask Hatsumi how to defend against omaplata.

Comparing two approaches to combat is an interesting but unanswerable question.

You know, one major thing I have learned from this thread that I had no idea about was how interested in weapons ninjutsu practioners are. Seems like a whole other thread, so I won't go into it now, but vadee intervesting...

 

[Kreth]

I'm not too set in anything--that's what's great about being a beginner, no agenda;

But as a beginner, do you have enough experience to form an opinion?

 

[Senin]

Jks, I hate to disagree with ya, but.....
pointless? 60 replies in a couple of days. I think it struck a nerve with some people.

Here is the crux of the issue. What would a BBJ'er do against a Hapkido guy, or a karate guy, or a kung fu guy? Who knows? It is up to the individual fighter. Nooooo. You can go to Youtube and see the BBJ'ers fight over and over again.... the same way..... and win. They don't mask their style. The are predictable. So the only question is.... what would the Nin'jer do in response?

Somebody said, why even worry about it.... I don't go to bars where there are fights, if I were to get robbed on the street they could have my money, etc. Okay, fair enough. Let's say your car breaks down in a bad neighborhood. Or you get into a heated with that other Little League Dad? Or, you just meet a crazy in a Costco. Or, you are a cop and you need to arrest this guy. And the guy happens to be a BJJ'er. Which you wouldn't know until the grabbling starts. At that point, I hope your ninjutsu skills serve you well.

Anyway, I think it is a fair debate.

And by the way, to the guy who seemed to take offense at the "dirty tricks" term, then what the heck would you do against the BJJ'er?

 

[flashlock]

But as a beginner, do you have enough experience to form an opinion?

You should judge an argument on the strength of its logic, not the resume of the one who said it. You'll have to judge for yourself if my opinions have any value.

 

[Kreth]

You should judge an argument on the strength of its logic, not the resume of the one who said it.

You offered an opinion. I questioned whether you had the experience to form that opinion. It's a valid question.

 

[flashlock]

.

Thanks flash, you made some very good and interesting points. Greatly appreciated.quote]

Thanks, I appreciate that, mate--I've really enjoyed this thread and the others' interesting views.

 

[itengu]

Regretfully presenting a logical position seems often to take second best to your wall of credentials in the world of forums. Essentially you may not describe the mating habits of a Panda unless you are a zoologist

As for the comment regarding Weapons, "I had no idea about was how interested in weapons ninjutsu practioners are". I feel that ninjutsu provides broad exposure to various aspects of combat in which ultimatly involves an greater degree of weapon training than what does not exist in BJJ ( Bringing us back to the topic at hand ).

 

[flashlock]

You offered an opinion. I questioned whether you had the experience to form that opinion. It's a valid question.

Well, it was more than an opinion, it was backed up by some US Army research, and a little logic (at least I thought so). Frankly, I was taught that you're ALWAYS a beginner...

 

[itengu]

I think it is always good to get opinions from outside one's realm of undersanding and also respect new questions. This tread brings out some very interesting characteristics in people.

But I love this:

"But as a beginner, do you have enough experience to form an opinion?"

Welcome to the collective .. opinions or in fact any independant thought are banned.

 

[flashlock]

Regretfully presenting a logical position seems often to take second best to your wall of credentials in the world of forums. Essentially you may not describe the mating habits of a Panda unless you are a zoologist

As for the comment regarding Weapons, "I had no idea about was how interested in weapons ninjutsu practioners are". I feel that ninjutsu provides broad exposure to various aspects of combat in which ultimatly involves an greater degree of weapon training than what does not exist in BJJ ( Bringing us back to the topic at hand ).

HA! Actually, I think you would have to BE a panda for anyone to take you seriously re their mating habits.

Hm... so you're sort of suggesting, and maybe that's what some others were hinting at, that your practice in weapons will balance out or give you an edge over a BJJ-er?

This is interesting, but a little afield of the thought experiment which limited it to H2H combat (BJJ vs unarmed taijutsu). I'm not really interested in that question--who is better with a samurai sword, or an aquebus... because it doesn't seem relavent in our modern times. Is it supposed to be that the BJJ person is going to grapple you, and you have time to find a tree branch or broom handle or something that he's not clever enough to see and utilize as a weapon for himself? I don't quite get it...

 

[meta_aesthete]

I think the nerve you're hitting has more to do with the fact that this question gets tossed around here a lot -- the BJJ/MMA/Bullshido crowd likes to come here to prove how weak and old and pitiful our art is.

Personally, I think it's because MMA is going to end up a fad once the money in UFC/Pride dries up, just like the money in '80s ninja movies dried up. And then the new popular guys will harp on MMA for being limited to octagons, and harp on BJJ for "what if there's a second guy kicking your brains in."

This isn't an attack on the arts in MMA -- they're great, beautiful arts. But all have their weaknesses, and anything, with enough marketing hype, can be posited as "t3h b3st3st."

Anyway, even if you are interested in a more legitimate inquiry, months and months of accumulated irritation from troublemakers is coming out on you. This isn't a new question that we're scrambling to cope with -- people are just flustered because it seems like people don't get that these questions are of limited value.

And frankly, I don't come to a Ninjutsu forum to spend all day discussing BJJ. So here's my closing thought. I'm confident in my choice. BJJ will have an advantage in isolated grappling situations, because it's a specialized art for isolated grappling sitautions. Ninjutsu has a lot of other training that you probably won't get in a pure BJJ school (for example: weapons, striking, conflict management/evasion), which I personally find more interesting and useful.

That's my answer. If that doesn't answer all your questions, then I guess you're free to think whatever you want.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I truly think these debates are Apples to Oranges type comparisons. The arts are so different and, as I understand it, BBT spends a significant amount of time on weapon's training. Were they training for the ring, as many BJJ folks do, they would not be able to dedicate precious training time to this. That being said, I would take Kreth as my backup in a dark alley over most ring fighters.

 

[Kreth]

Well, it was more than an opinion, it was backed up by some US Army research, and a little logic (at least I thought so). Frankly, I was taught that you're ALWAYS a beginner...

The army was doing research on ninjutsu vs. BJJ? :idunno:

But I love this:

"But as a beginner, do you have enough experience to form an opinion?"

Welcome to the collective .. opinions or in fact any independant thought are banned.

I'd no more take the opinion of a self-described beginner as fact on this topic, than I would ask a paper MCSE for help with a major computer upgrade. Or to put it another way, who would you want advice from on how to sell your first novel, an unpublished freelance writer, or Stephen King?

 

[itengu]

Kreth,

this is not about "taking" an opinion, just respecting it. Flashlocks "opinion" as somebody evaluating new arts is always good information. We sometimes can develop a stale perspective being involved in something for such a long period of time.

I wonder sometimes what my mindset was when I first started training, everything looked confusing and complicated.

 

[Don Roley]

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL--does one system have an advantage over the other? They are so different, I find it difficult to believe they are equal in terms of street fighting. Let's limit it to that basic scenario (not sports matches, not running away, not fighting on an ice pond).

Right from the start you lost me. I do not fight to prove myself against others. I do not fight to feed my ego. I fight only if it is the last option and I need to get home to my family alive and in one piece. Running away is a damn good option for me in that case. If I can't run away, then the other guy using a weapon is a very, very real option I need to be aware of and train against. You throwing out all of that reduces it to a case where one person wants to prove him manhood over someone else. I avoid that by swallowing some pride if needed and expecting anything else if that does not work.

Back to my silly experiment. I think out of those 50 fights, the ninjutsu practioner will be at a distinct disadvantage because his grappling will be weaker than the BJJ fighters, and 99% fights end up in grappling range. This has been documented by the US Army in Iraq--and, less convincingly, in ultimate fighting competitions. Every documented fight had elements of grappling, NONE were just striking. Interesting!

Back to this statement. Where is the documentation that the US Army has on the matter? I looked through this thread and despite calls for you to produce facts to back up what you said, you seem to have missed posting any sort of proof for the above statement.

Before we go any farther, please back up what you say or admit you can't and drop the subject, eh?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And by the way, to the guy who seemed to take offense at the "dirty tricks" term, then what the heck would you do against the BJJ'er?

If you need to ask, it is very likely that you need to train more Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing I will say on this matter is that the ground game of BJJ does mesh nicely with Budo Taijutsu's overall Taijutsu skills. They meld together nicely actually. There is also a huge advantage when bringing the non sporting mind set of the Budo Taijutsu pracitioner and pairing it up with the newaza skills of the BJJ'er. The only problem is getting rid of the competitive sport only mindset of the BJJ practitioner. However if you have left that behind there is quite a bit to learn from BJJ.

 

[MJS]

I'm not too set in anything--that's what's great about being a beginner, no agenda; I can be a bit more objective since I have no major investment in BJJ or Ninjutsu. I looked at whatever theoretical facts I could, I've studied both systems and practiced with some of the best advocates of Ninjutsu and BJJ, and this is the conclusion I've reached based on some of the factors I've outlinned above.

I wish you success and happiness in your training, sir!

A few questions for you. You state that you have studied both Ninjutsu and BJJ. How much time have you put into each art? How long have you been training overall?

And thanks, I am have much success and happiness in the arts I do.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Right from the start you lost me. I do not fight to prove myself against others. I do not fight to feed my ego. I fight only if it is the last option and I need to get home to my family alive and in one piece. Running away is a damn good option for me in that case. If I can't run away, then the other guy using a weapon is a very, very real option I need to be aware of and train against. You throwing out all of that reduces it to a case where one person wants to prove him manhood over someone else. I avoid that by swallowing some pride if needed and expecting anything else if that does not work.

Thank you Don! I agree with you. Likewise, I do not fight to prove myself against others either. I'm sure that you and I are both confident in what we do, although are arts are different.:asian:

Back to this statement. Where is the documentation that the US Army has on the matter? I looked through this thread and despite calls for you to produce facts to back up what you said, you seem to have missed posting any sort of proof for the above statement.

Before we go any farther, please back up what you say or admit you can't and drop the subject, eh?

Well, this is exactly what I said earlier. I'd like to know how someone can base everything on the findings of someone else. Much better IMO to form ones own opinion.

Mike