Ninjutsu vs BJJ

[flashlock]

There's nothing really wrong with this question, and it could be pursued as a kind of thought experiment (in Roman times, a real experiment!).

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL--does one system have an advantage over the other? They are so different, I find it difficult to believe they are equal in terms of street fighting. Let's limit it to that basic scenario (not sports matches, not running away, not fighting on an ice pond).

Take the 50 most athletic, best trained ninjutsu practitioners and the 50 most athletic BJJ rollers. Have 50 fight in a cramped area (mimicking a bar or parking lot situation), and have 50 fight in an open arena--of course, absolutely no rules, to the death--ugh!

If you could do such a ridiculous experiment, I think you could discover which system, *in general* was better for a street type conflict.

But we don't really need to do it--there is documented evidence to help support our imaginations, as well as experiments you can do yourself.

I have practiced a little ninjutsu, and even a little BJJ--and I compared the two and came to my own conclusions--others, much more qualified, I'm sure could reach totally different conclusions.

If you practice ninjutsu and are curious, go to a BJJ club and roll with those guys. I guarantee you, you will be surprised at how difficult it is to use a "dirty trick" on them (i.e., eye gouges, biting, etc.) In fact, even against a middle ranked BJJ guy, I found it almost impossible to get my fingers even near their faces, or to bite anywhere (you don't have to really bite or gouge to see if it's positionally possible).

Now, BJJ took on many challengers with less rules in the beginning in Brazille than they now have in the UFC. The stuff has been tested and tested and tested. There is no guarantee, but, personally (and I've made this choice after much consideration), if you had to pick one system for overall health, well being, and self defense (OK, FUN too!), I picked BJJ. Just my personal thing. But think about it: isn't it odd how every system is now "incorporating" BJJ into itself? Why not just join BJJ?

That was my conclusion, and I'm sure there are just as many to pursue other arts, and I respect that. I'm just laying out why I choose BJJ over Ninjutsu--please do not take offence! Ninjutsu is fantastic, and there is a great spiritual dimension quite unique to it.

Back to my silly experiment. I think out of those 50 fights, the ninjutsu practioner will be at a distinct disadvantage because his grappling will be weaker than the BJJ fighters, and 99% fights end up in grappling range. This has been documented by the US Army in Iraq--and, less convincingly, in ultimate fighting competitions. Every documented fight had elements of grappling, NONE were just striking. Interesting!

I believe the ninjutsu grappling will be slightly weaker because the ninja guy/ gal doesn't specialize in that range.

If I were a taijutsu practioner, I would try my best to intercept the BJJ guy with eye jabs and shin kicks from those ranges, moving back in "water mode", and ready to sprawl and deliver elbows when he came in for a double leg take down. The ninja will win fights where his strikes nail the mark, and he can keep away; also, the fight has to be short, or it will degenerate into grappling. All this is possible, but it is very, very difficult to prevent the natural flow to grappling between (otherwise) equally matched fighters.

I would say the BJJ people would probably when over 50% of those battles based on the chances things go to grappling range alone.

Other thoughts?

 

[DWeidman]

Take the 50 most athletic, best trained ninjutsu practitioners and the 50 most athletic BJJ rollers. Have 50 fight in a cramped area (mimicking a bar or parking lot situation), and have 50 fight in an open arena--of course, absolutely no rules, to the death--ugh!

I would say the BJJ people would probably when over 50% of those battles based on the chances things go to grappling range alone.

Other thoughts?

If those 50 fights are one after the other - fair rules (no weapons) - I would agree with you.

If you put all 50 in the same room and just say "kill" -- I put my money on the BJK guys.

If you simply let each of them bring in bladed weapons... I REALLY put my money on the BJK guys.

But yes - for the UFC -- BJJ everytime.

Depends on what you are doing it for. I am happy for you.

-DW

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Why do so many people seem to assume that all taijutsu ground tactics are based around eye pokes, biting and groin attacks?

 

[zDom]

... and 99% fights end up in grappling range....

Oh, now its up to 99 percent, eh?

Not even 99 percent of UFC fights end up in grappling range, much less 99 percent of ALL fights.

What is that signature someone has? Something like 67 percent of statistics are made up

 

[flashlock]

If those 50 fights are one after the other - fair rules (no weapons) - I would agree with you.

If you put all 50 in the same room and just say "kill" -- I put my money on the BJK guys.

If you simply let each of them bring in bladed weapons... I REALLY put my money on the BJK guys.

But yes - for the UFC -- BJJ everytime.

Depends on what you are doing it for. I am happy for you.

-DW

Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean "fair rules (no weapons)"? True, my experiment takes out weapons, because we're talking about H2H combat, but I specifically stated no rules and went into how eye gouges and things are no antidote (necessarily) to grappling.

Now, I'm assuming you don't mean having people fight sword vs sword. Most realistically it could be knife vs stick, or knife vs knife, or club vs club. If the BJJ guy has no training in weapons - which is possible - then I agree, the ninja guy/ gal would have an advantage.

My experiment is about two guys, no weapons, no rules, two different systems--a simple, basic test. Let's stick to that for the sake of arguement. So, I ask you, without going into other options, in H2H combat, no weapons, no rules, you think they have equal chances (or an advantage to one side or the other)? And what do you base your opinion on?

Thanks!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really this discussion can go no where! Unfortunately it has more to do with the individual practitioner than the style that they train in. Personally I have extension experience in both, over 13 years in Budo Taijutsu and over eleven years in Brazilian Jiujitsu. Both have things they are very good at and both arts are beautiful in and of themselves. However, it does come down to the individual in the end and if they can apply what they do. No doubt in one situation a BJJ guy might survive the encounter and in another situation a Budo Taijutsu practitioner might survive. I agree with Don that there are two many variables at play and to many things that could happen to really qualify one as better than the other.

 

[MJS]

Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean "fair rules (no weapons)"? True, my experiment takes out weapons, because we're talking about H2H combat, but I specifically stated no rules and went into how eye gouges and things are no antidote (necessarily) to grappling.

Now, I'm assuming you don't mean having people fight sword vs sword. Most realistically it could be knife vs stick, or knife vs knife, or club vs club. If the BJJ guy has no training in weapons - which is possible - then I agree, the ninja guy/ gal would have an advantage.

My experiment is about two guys, no weapons, no rules, two different systems--a simple, basic test. Let's stick to that for the sake of arguement. So, I ask you, without going into other options, in H2H combat, no weapons, no rules, you think they have equal chances (or an advantage to one side or the other)? And what do you base your opinion on?

Thanks!

The experiment in and of itself is really a moot point. You could have 2 people fight each other 10 times and the outcome can vary from time to time. Its not so much the art, but instead the person. In addition, if this was really going to be a no rules fight, why are you limiting it to no weapons? In a real fight, with no rules, I'm going to use whatever is available to me.

Mike

 

[flashlock]

Oh, now its up to 99 percent, eh?

Not even 99 percent of UFC fights end up in grappling range, much less 99 percent of ALL fights.

What is that signature someone has? Something like 67 percent of statistics are made up

"For instance, every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking..." H2H combat, p. 9 (Greg Thompson and Ked Peligro).

Thank you, saying "ended up" in grappling range is imprecise. I should have said 100% of all documented H2H fights in Afghanistan and Iraq had involved grappling and or grappling and striking, but no conflicts involved striking alone.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sorry, I don't understand. What do you mean "fair rules (no weapons)"? True, my experiment takes out weapons, because we're talking about H2H combat, but I specifically stated no rules and went into how eye gouges and things are no antidote (necessarily) to grappling.

Now, I'm assuming you don't mean having people fight sword vs sword. Most realistically it could be knife vs stick, or knife vs knife, or club vs club. If the BJJ guy has no training in weapons - which is possible - then I agree, the ninja guy/ gal would have an advantage.

My experiment is about two guys, no weapons, no rules, two different systems--a simple, basic test. Let's stick to that for the sake of arguement. So, I ask you, without going into other options, in H2H combat, no weapons, no rules, you think they have equal chances (or an advantage to one side or the other)? And what do you base your opinion on?

Thanks!

Brad,

Why would anyone want to be in an experiment where it was fair? If I was part of this (in the real world) I would want an advantage. A Budo Taijutsu practitioner is rarely if ever going to be without some kind of tool to use. So the experiement you propose is not really an accurate one. Plus H2H does not connotate without any sort of variables of picking up tools to use to your advantage.

The reality is that this always comes down to the individual. I have met pracitioner's from any style that simply put could not protect themselves. I have also met pracitioners from every style that would be a formidable opponent at the right time. It will always come down to the individual!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

"For instance, every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking..." H2H combat, p. 9 (Greg Thompson and Ked Peligro).

Thank you, saying "ended up" in grappling range is imprecise. I should have said 100% of all documented H2H fights in Afghanistan and Iraq had involved grappling and or grappling and striking, but no conflicts involved striking alone.

This backs up Greg Thompson's point. Unfortunately he is trying to sell grappling and his system in particular. I know several vets who engaged enemies and did not end up on the ground. To many variables and the world does not work with any kind of absolute!

 

[MJS]

"For instance, every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking..." H2H combat, p. 9 (Greg Thompson and Ked Peligro).

These fights that were documented...who were they between? Grappler vs. Grappler, Grappler vs. Striker, Striker vs. Striker??

 

[terryl965]

Ok I have read and I have a question, why would anybody with any kind of training go to the ground with there enemies. I mean if I was in a defense mode I would put the other on the ground but would stay up to make sure no-one else is coming at me, also why would we have a fair fight with all the variable known to each other, I mean no two people are going to know each other moves.

I know I do not train the same as most of you but I would appreciate some real answers to mu questions.
Thanks
Terry

 

[flashlock]

The experiment in and of itself is really a moot point. You could have 2 people fight each other 10 times and the outcome can vary from time to time. Its not so much the art, but instead the person. In addition, if this was really going to be a no rules fight, why are you limiting it to no weapons? In a real fight, with no rules, I'm going to use whatever is available to me.

Mike

Thanks, Mike!

It seems to me a lot of people are saying there are so many different crazy factors it is IMPOSSIBLE to make any logical conclusion about what is more effective in a H2H combat situation. I don't buy it, and the US Army doesn't buy it, based on statistics.

Can't we say Ninjutsu probably has a better chance in a street fight than coperaria (sorry for my spelling).

Each fight you look at could be completely different, however, you can see trends of success.

For example, in chess, some openings are better than others because % wise, they win more than others. Each game is vastly different, with billions and billions and billions of different possibilities, and different opponents. However, we can say all in all, in general, the sicilian najdorf defense increases your chances of winning a chess game as black than if you were to play, say, the risky Latvian gambit.

Hardly "moot" at all.

Yes, sometimes the Latvian gambit has brilliant succes, but overall, in grand master games, it is a piece of garbage compared to the Najdorf!

We can do the same with martial arts. Of course, 100 fighters is still probably too small. Maybe look at 500.

I think things like weapons don't really solve anything. You can grab a pool cue or a rock, or unsheath your blade, but so can anyone else. Let's look at the core issue--in this case unarmed taijutsu vs unarmed BJJ.

 

[flashlock]

Why do so many people seem to assume that all taijutsu ground tactics are based around eye pokes, biting and groin attacks?

I don't assume that, but someone mentioned it as an option in street fights that you wouldn't have in the UFC, so I addressed it. There is some good grappling in ninjutsu, but it's not a specailty as it is in BJJ. In fact, I know To Shin Do "incorporates" many positions from BJJ for its ground game, along with eye gouges and strikes.

 

[flashlock]

These fights that were documented...who were they between? Grappler vs. Grappler, Grappler vs. Striker, Striker vs. Striker??

The soldiers came back after H2H conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, and described what occured in detailed reports, and gave feedback on what worked and what didn't. This was used to re-haul the US Army and Special Forces H2H combat training, which now has BJJ as its core, again, according to the people who designed the prgram and teach it to the army (Matt Larson [a ranger] and Greg Thompson).

I don't know anything about it beyond this source.

 

[itengu]

Having trained in both styles I have a few observations:

- BJJ is designed to satisfy a one on one unarmed duel, which is does very very well, attempting to engage in this situation without having a ground game would be foolish
- Bujinkan provides a complete framework embracing ground , stand up, weapons etc etc. Different world.
- There seem an odd perception of pure stylists. Many many Bujinkan people cross train in BJJ or other grappling arts as do other styles even if only to find out what those pesky grapplers are up to.
- I would be surprised if many BJJ persons did not also cross train to have a good stand up game
- The biting, the gourging argument fails to solve a single problem "You are in an inferior position and if thats all you got you are in trouble" ... it also annoys grapplers, pain and nasty tricks will not make one give up a superior position, I will swap a bite for an arm bar anyday.
- As for eye gourges if you can't dominate position on the groud you mostly certainly won't have the leverage to remotely pull anything like this off
- I have observed Bujinkan people who cross train in BJJ quickly develop a strategy to get back up on their feet and not play the cuddling game
- If you have a Shihan that can't get out of a side mount find a new one.
- In a reality based combat situation you must have the tools to take the engagement to a more tactical position. If you have a ground game it is easier to take the fight up to a better range. i.e Standing

Cheers...

 

[Flying Crane]

Can't we say Ninjutsu probably has a better chance in a street fight than coperaria (sorry for my spelling).

Yes, is is spelled CAPOEIRA, you managed to slaughter it pretty bad.

But I would say no to this, it cannot be assumed. I know some seriously scary capoeiristas, against whom nobody sane would want to fight. But I also know a lot of really lousy capoeiristas. The problem is that, in my opinion, the training methods in many capoeira schools don't train with a life-and-death fight in mind. They train for the "game", in the roda. Some of them that train this way can be pretty tough, but it's still not the same.

But in the end, it really depends on the person, and how well they have trained and developed their skills, in whichever art they have chosen. I wouldn't count the capoeiristas out of it...

 

[flashlock]

Ok I have read and I have a question, why would anybody with any kind of training go to the ground with there enemies. I mean if I was in a defense mode I would put the other on the ground but would stay up to make sure no-one else is coming at me, also why would we have a fair fight with all the variable known to each other, I mean no two people are going to know each other moves.

I know I do not train the same as most of you but I would appreciate some real answers to mu questions.
Thanks
Terry

Hi, Terry! I asked that question many times myself before I decided on my personal trip, BJJ.

Sometimes you have no choice. You get tackled out of the blue, and man, you are on the ground! You better have some skills. Or maybe it's a crazy relative you don't want to hurt, you just want to contain, so you bring him down while your aunt Fifi calls the police.

But the best thing is, the principles of BJJ work on the ground or upright. You can throw them while still standing and run, you can arm bar someone standing up, or get behind them and choke them out while on your feet. It works on the ground, but also standing up!

I'm just a newbie at this, so I hesitate to go into it, but I did ask these questions, and that is what I discovered.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The soldiers came back after H2H conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, and described what occured in detailed reports, and gave feedback on what worked and what didn't. This was used to re-haul the US Army and Special Forces H2H combat training, which now has BJJ as its core, again, according to the people who designed the prgram and teach it to the army (Matt Larson [a ranger] and Greg Thompson).

I don't know anything about it beyond this source.

Brad both Matt and Greg also say that the one who survives in a grappling encounter in the military is the one whose friends show up first. (scary if your only H2H skills are grappling) Simply put on a battlefield grappling with the enemy is not a good idea unless or course it goes there and then yes you had better have some skill and or hope that his/her friends do not show up first. Even then if you are grappling on a battlefield in a combative situation you had better understand how and when you could pull out your tactical sidearm or knife to increase your advantage. These skills would be essential and something that should be taught in every grappling class for real world personal protection and combative measures.
This is something by the way that you will find in Budo Taijutsu or what I teach in IRT!

 

[flashlock]

Yes, is is spelled CAPOEIRA, you managed to slaughter it pretty bad.

But I would say no to this, it cannot be assumed. I know some seriously scary capoeiristas, against whom nobody sane would want to fight. But I also know a lot of really lousy capoeiristas. The problem is that, in my opinion, the training methods in many capoeira schools don't train with a life-and-death fight in mind. They train for the "game", in the roda. Some of them that train this way can be pretty tough, but it's still not the same.

But in the end, it really depends on the person, and how well they have trained and developed their skills, in whichever art they have chosen. I wouldn't count the capoeiristas out of it...

My appologies to the capoeiristas (for the misspelling and counting them out). I know a couple of guys who practice it, and they don't think most of it would work in a fight--but that of course is not the real point for them. I just couldn't think of anything else that was related to martial arts, but not really too practical for a real fight. I'll make something up, uh, one armed, one legged blind boxing, how is that?