Ninjutsu good for security agent?

[drop bear]

I'm not "getting mixed up." Why should I recognize your belt? Is there a universal standard of belt grading that I'm unaware of, and did your teacher adhere to it? And, if so, can you verify this?

How can I know your karate is legit?

Why should I care if it is or not?

I don't mean to come across as an ***, btw. These are honest questions. I'm unsure why your belt makes you legitimate, or why it deserves the recognition of anyone outside of your school.

The belt like a degree is an accreditation. You don't have to recognize either.

 

[Fuhrer Drumpf]

The belt like a degree is an accreditation. You don't have to recognize either.

It's not. There is no recognized accreditation service for karate belts that I'm aware of. If there was, the McDojos would shrivel up. Is there some national or international organization that the majority of karate school recognize? Is there universal black belt syllabus?

If one looks at early Judo and Funakoshi's school, belts were entirely an in-house rank structure. For a long time, neither Kano nor Funakoshi even had belts when they awarded belts to students.

 

[dunc]

Not sure what this has to do with the OP...?

 

[Chris Parker]

Ninjutsu isn't even a real martial art. The real ninja may have studied something called "ninjutsu," but, according to extant texts, this training consisted of topics like "how to shoot a bow on horseback" and "how to burn a house down."

Modern "ninjutsu" is just people trying to recreate some aspects of ninja training with a liberal amount of imagination.

According to Wikipedia, ninjutsu training consisted of:

1. Bajutsu – horsemanship
2. Bōjutsu – stick and staff techniques
3. Bōryaku – tactics
4. Chi-mon – geography
5. Chōhō – espionage
6. Hensōjutsu – disguise and impersonation
7. Intonjutsu – escaping and concealment
8. Kayakujutsu – pyrotechnics
9. Kenjutsu – sword techniques
10. Kusarigamajutsu – kusarigama (chain-sickle) techniques
11. Naginatajutsu – naginata (polearm) techniques
12. Seishinteki kyōyō – spiritual refinement
13. Shinobi-iri – stealth and infiltration
14. Shurikenjutsu – throwing weapons techniques
15. Sōjutsu – spear techniques
16. Sui-ren – water training
17. Taijutsu – unarmed combat
18. Tenmon – meteorology

Er... you do know that that list has come basically from the modern (combative) "ninjutsu" arts, yeah? And that numbers 2, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 are all specifically combative methods (staff fighting, sword fighting, composite chain and sickle fighting, pole arm/glaive fighting, throwing blades, spear fighting, and unarmed combat)? So... not even a real martial art? Interesting....

That said, some discernment in the use of terminology can be useful... historically speaking, the term "ninjutsu"/"shinobi-no-jutsu"/"shinobi no ho" and other terms used to describe the activities of "ninja"/"rappa"/"suppa"/"kusa"/"shinobi no mono"/"Iga no mono"/"Koga no mono"/"o-metsuke", and a number of other terms largely referred to the methods and activities of information gathering, espionage, occasionally sabotage, and so on... not combative engagements. Additionally, most historically, there were no "ninja" as such in the main... it was simply a way to describe anyone performing the job. Same way any soldier on a scouting mission is a "scout", regardless of other roles they may be employed in... many "ninja" were simply samurai (or non-samurai in cases) in the act of obtaining information in various ways.

To take the modern usage, though, the term today largely refers to the methods of the so-called Takamatsuden arts. These systems, which are a variety of more "orthodox" bushi systems (such as Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu, both branches of systems which are taught in other lines as distinct Koryu arts), arts which claim a heritage based in the traditional "homeland" of the ninja of Iga and Koga (Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu, for example, both claim to have been developed in the Iga region, linking them with the social groups most commonly associated with "ninja", including the Hattori and Momochi "ninja" families and leaders), and a few arts that claim to be specifically "ninjutsu" (namely Togakure Ryu in most cases). Today, due to it's marketing and promotion, particularly in the 70's and 80's, with the use of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu as the "banner name", the more generic term "ninjutsu" has come to represent the whole group of teachings, regardless of the historical aspects or make up of the art.

Just for fun, though, the syllabus of Togakure Ryu, although it does include some combative methods, is not really geared up for engaging an opponent in any real "martial art" method... instead, the combative techniques are more a stop-gap measure if you find yourself discovered or caught when on an espionage action... which is really the primary emphasis of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu... and matches much of the historical view of ninjutsu itself. Hmm. Oh, and for the record, the list you give from Wikipedia? That's directly from Togakure Ryu.... just sayin'....

There's no historical evidence of shinobi fighting systems. In pre-modern Japan, the only hand-to-hand martial art around was jujitsu, which was highly varied and stylistic depending on which school or clan or teacher taught it. It's certainly possible that some shinobi may have learned jujitsu techniques, but shinobi didn't care for fighting a whole lot.

Jujutsu. Not jujitsu.

Oh, and, as said above, many "ninja" were samurai.... so the idea of "ninja didn't learn unarmed combat" is like saying that a modern soldier, when acting as a scout, never learnt how to fire a gun...

In my opinion, special forces are the modern-day ninja.

No. Really, not at all.

It means that special forces teams carry out missions comparable to the ninja. When Green Berets were stationed in Afghanistan, for instance, they grew beards and spoke the language in an attempt to endear themselves to locals for intel gathering purposes.

In very limited circumstances, such as that, there may be some overlap... but in the main, no, Special Forces are not really like "ninja" at all. "Ninja" would be closer to spies, CIA etc.

I always thought of Ninjas as feudal Japan’s Navy SEALs.

Same thing. Nope.

Edit: I think the Ninja were during Japan’s feudal period. If not, substitute whatever era it actually was.

First you'd need to define "feudal period".... there were a range of different periods in Japanese history that that covers... but, really, yeah... just in different contexts and ways.

I'm certainly no expert on ninja. I just get irritated by this "ninjutsu" nonsense. As a Japanese American, I want people to know actual Japanese history rather than the semi-mythical movie version of it.

Eh, movies are movies... it's rare for them to be that historically well researched or accurate if being entertaining is an option.... that said, regardless of your ethnic background, trying to clear the air in a topic you admit to not really knowing is a bit less than ideal, yeah?

My point is that ninja often did stuff like this to get intel. According to Wikipedia, they were people watchers and good at dressing up and acting in various roles.

Ooh, Wiki... half a step above a movie for credibility....

Not the lineage issue again... This is getting ridiculous. The truth lies in the kata, I believe. If it were not applicable or efficient in any way, it would not have existed. I would also like to see what @Chris Parker says, as he's the only reliable & most knowledgeable source here to comment on all things Ninjutsu related.

It's just ironic to me that the people who make the most accusations, know nothing about the subject at hand, nor do they have any physical experience with it.

It's true what they say; "Empty vessels make the most noise".

Eh, I wouldn't say I'm the most reliable or most knowledgeable... @dunc has many years experience, similar to me, @Brian R. VanCise has trained for many years as well, @Tony Dismukes has a wealth of experience and knowledge.... it's dangerous looking to just one source...

Chris Parker has never worked in security, but he seems to know about ninjutsu. Important distinction there. Others in this thread are very experienced in security, but not as knowledgeable about ninjutsu.

You’re on the right track, but I’d suggest being a little more discriminating.

So, while I agree with the advice to be more discriminating, I will put out my credentials in this regard.

In terms of understanding the requirements and needs of a security agent, you're right that I've never professionally engaged as a security agent, however my background does cover pretty much everything other than working a door each night.

So, I think the background in the actual art being questioned is pretty much accepted, yeah? So the question is how can I know that it's applicable to use in a security setting? Well... over the last 25 years, I have covered a number of security courses, as my Chief Instructor is government accredited to create such programs. That has given me a great amount of insight into what is required (legally, strategically, tactically, technically, and so on), through both discussion and physical experience. I have had many discussions with security guards of various levels in many contexts to ensure that the information I was given matched the reality. I have taught security methodologies for 15 years. I have employed those same security techniques and methods in real life, including detaining and restraining shoplifters in my workplace, and using it in parties when things have gotten out of hand. Senior members of my organisation have worked in security, including the most senior instructor in Sydney who worked doors for over a decade, employing the skills of our ninjutsu teachings, an instructor in Queensland who also employed our security teachings in his job as a bouncer for 15 years, and so on.

So what I have is education, experience, corroborating accounts, supporting accounts, and, of course, knowledge of the subject at hand. But please, continue to tell me what I don't know.

Chris is very knowledgeable about ninjutsu, but he's hardly the only one here... Brian and Hyoho (just as a two examples) both have a great deal of knowledge about the Koryu arts.

Hmm... Hyoho has an incredible amount of information and knowledge in Koryu, but might not take the idea of knowing about ninjutsu all that well... ha! And Brian has some understanding of Koryu (better than a number), but more in the ninjutsu area...

Chris has (so far as I know) never worked in security. Brian has LEO experience. But even given those facts, it's also important to remember that the laws in your area might very well be totally different, resulting in drastic changes in how security issues are approached.

And LEO is not security, of course.... and never having worked in security isn't the same as not having insight into the question at hand...

 

[Steve]

So, you have academic experience and no actual p, practical experience. That's what I said. It is an important distinction.

 

[Chris Parker]

Steve, I have practical experience. I also have the reference point of others with practical experience over a longer time period than myself. I also have experience in the training and requirements (needs and applicability) of the security industry. Your refusal to acknowledge this is frankly your own issue.

 

[Steve]

Steve, I have practical experience. I also have the reference point of others with practical experience over a longer time period than myself. I also have experience in the training and requirements (needs and applicability) of the security industry. Your refusal to acknowledge this is frankly your own issue.

Look. My intent is not to take anything away from you. But you appear to have a blind spot when it comes to your own credentials. You don't apply the rigorous standards you insist for others to yourself. For someone who is looking for information on ninjutsu and security, you can certainly inform with authority on the former. Someone with actual experience in the field would be a much better source for the latter. Perhaps one of your students who has actually applied the techniques.

 

[Chris Parker]

Steve.

I
Have
Applied
The
Techniques.

Dude. Read.

 

[Chris Parker]

I mean, seriously... the question is simple... is Ninjutsu (Takamatsuden martial arts) suited to a security agent?

My answer... yes, it can be.

My basis for this includes my use of our methods in security settings and contexts.
It also includes senior members of our organisation who have employed our methods in security work for a decade or more in cases.
It also includes my training in a number of security courses.
It also includes my knowledge of the requirements of security guards, coming from the security guards themselves, and my organisations history with creating and presenting government accredited courses in this field.
It also includes a focus on security use and application in my training for the past 2 decades plus.
It also includes my 25 years in the art.

But, of course, I have a blind spot for my credentials. Right.

 

[Tarrycat]

Er... you do know that that list has come basically from the modern (combative) "ninjutsu" arts, yeah? And that numbers 2, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, and 17 are all specifically combative methods (staff fighting, sword fighting, composite chain and sickle fighting, pole arm/glaive fighting, throwing blades, spear fighting, and unarmed combat)? So... not even a real martial art? Interesting....

That said, some discernment in the use of terminology can be useful... historically speaking, the term "ninjutsu"/"shinobi-no-jutsu"/"shinobi no ho" and other terms used to describe the activities of "ninja"/"rappa"/"suppa"/"kusa"/"shinobi no mono"/"Iga no mono"/"Koga no mono"/"o-metsuke", and a number of other terms largely referred to the methods and activities of information gathering, espionage, occasionally sabotage, and so on... not combative engagements. Additionally, most historically, there were no "ninja" as such in the main... it was simply a way to describe anyoe performing the job. Same way any soldier on a scouting mission is a "scout", regardless of other roles they may be employed in... many "ninja" were simply samurai (or non-samurai in cases) in the act of obtaining information in various ways.

To take the modern usage, though, the term today largely refers to the methods of the so-called Takamatsuden arts. These systems, which are a variety of more "orthodox" bushi systems (such as Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu, both branches of systems which are taught in other lines as distinct Koryu arts), arts which claim a heritage based in the traditional "homeland" of the ninja of Iga and Koga (Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu, for example, both claim to have been developed in the Iga region, linking them with the social groups most commonly associated with "ninja", including the Hattori and Momochi "ninja" families and leaders), and a few arts that claim to be specifically "ninjutsu" (namely Togakure Ryu in most cases). Today, due to it's marketing and promotion, particularly in the 70's and 80's, with the use of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu as the "banner name", the more generic term "ninjutsu" has come to represent the whole group of teachings, regardless of the historical aspects or make up of the art.

Just for fun, though, the syllabus of Togakure Ryu, although it does include some combative methods, is not really geared up for engaging an opponent in any real "martial art" method... instead, the combative techniques are more a stop-gap measure if you find yourself discovered or caught when on an espionage action... which is really the primary emphasis of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu... and matches much of the historical view of ninjutsu itself. Hmm. Oh, and for the record, the list you give from Wikipedia? That's directly from Togakure Ryu.... just sayin'....



Jujutsu. Not jujitsu.

Oh, and, as said above, many "ninja" were samurai.... so the idea of "ninja didn't learn unarmed combat" is like saying that a modern soldier, when acting as a scout, never learnt how to fire a gun...



No. Really, not at all.



In very limited circumstances, such as that, there may be some overlap... but in the main, no, Special Forces are not really like "ninja" at all. "Ninja" would be closer to spies, CIA etc.



Same thing. Nope.



First you'd need to define "feudal period".... there were a range of different periods in Japanese history that that covers... but, really, yeah... just in different contexts and ways.



Eh, movies are movies... it's rare for them to be that historically well researched or accurate if being entertaining is an option.... that said, regardless of your ethnic background, trying to clear the air in a topic you admit to not really knowing is a bit less than ideal, yeah?



Ooh, Wiki... half a step above a movie for credibility....



Eh, I wouldn't say I'm the most reliable or most knowledgeable... @dunc has many years experience, similar to me, @Brian R. VanCise has trained for many years as well, @Tony Dismukes has a wealth of experience and knowledge.... it's dangerous looking to just one source...



So, while I agree with the advice to be more discriminating, I will put out my credentials in this regard.

In terms of understanding the requirements and needs of a security agent, you're right that I've never professionally engaged as a security agent, however my background does cover pretty much everything other than working a door each night.

So, I think the background in the actual art being questioned is pretty much accepted, yeah? So the question is how can I know that it's applicable to use in a security setting? Well... over the last 25 years, I have covered a number of security courses, as my Chief Instructor is government accredited to create such programs. That has given me a great amount of insight into what is required (legally, strategically, tactically, technically, and so on), through both discussion and physical experience. I have had many discussions with security guards of various levels in many contexts to ensure that the information I was given matched the reality. I have taught security methodologies for 15 years. I have employed those same security techniques and methods in real life, including detaining and restraining shoplifters in my workplace, and using it in parties when things have gotten out of hand. Senior members of my organisation have worked in security, including the most senior instructor in Sydney who worked doors for over a decade, employing the skills of our ninjutsu teachings, an instructor in Queensland who also employed our security teachings in his job as a bouncer for 15 years, and so on.

So what I have is education, experience, corroborating accounts, supporting accounts, and, of course, knowledge of the subject at hand. But please, continue to tell me what I don't know.



Hmm... Hyoho has an incredible amount of information and knowledge in Koryu, but might not take the idea of knowing about ninjutsu all that well... ha! And Brian has some understanding of Koryu (better than a number), but more in the ninjutsu area...



And LEO is not security, of course.... and never having worked in security isn't the same as not having insight into the question at hand...

Oh, I wasn't aware that there were more experienced folks like you here in Ninjutsu. Thank you for the references.

 

[Steve]

Steve.

I
Have
Applied
The
Techniques.

Dude. Read.

"you're right that I've never professionally engaged as a security agent." - Chris Parker

Son, the rest is you fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between academic experience and practical experience. This thread is about security agents. You have zero actual experience in that field. It is that simple.

Training is not application. It is training. Lest the point be lost, I'm not taking away anything from you here. You seem to know ABOUT a lot of stuff. But for someone who is a stickler regarding the credentials and credibility of others, you have a gaping blind spot with regards to yourself, and continually speak with authority on topics you admit have no actual experience with.

You have, if I understand correctly, no actual experience in LEO, in the military or in security. You allege to have a lot of training and seem to have been around some of those folks. That's not the same thing.

I think it's very important for folks to know what you do and don't have experience with. And this is speaking as someone who has worked professionally in the business of training, professional development and building expertise in people for their jobs, from technicians to executives and managers at all levels in between. I am telling you that, as an expert in the area of professional training and building expertise, there is a real difference between practical experience and academic expertise that you understand intuitively when you see it in others, but fail to recognize in yourself.

This entire string of posts is you using a lot of words to try and create a false equivalence between your training background and the real experience that comes from applying skills in their intended context. As I said above, this thread is about security agents. You have zero actual experience in that field. It is that simple.

Why is this important? As I have said a few times, the point isn't to take anything away from you. It is to put your critique of others and your opinions in proper context. When you disagree with others in this thread who do have experience as security agents, it is relevant that you do not have this experience. It is particularly relevant when you dismiss these informed opinions as uninformed because they are different from your own. This doesn't mean you're wrong. It means that your opinions need to stand alone and not rest on some mistaken impression that you are an expert in a field where you are not. This would be a no-brainer if you were more clear about this yourself, but you just don't seem to have that awareness. As I said, it's a blind spot.

 

[drop bear]

I mean, seriously... the question is simple... is Ninjutsu (Takamatsuden martial arts) suited to a security agent?

My answer... yes, it can be.

My basis for this includes my use of our methods in security settings and contexts.
It also includes senior members of our organisation who have employed our methods in security work for a decade or more in cases.
It also includes my training in a number of security courses.
It also includes my knowledge of the requirements of security guards, coming from the security guards themselves, and my organisations history with creating and presenting government accredited courses in this field.
It also includes a focus on security use and application in my training for the past 2 decades plus.
It also includes my 25 years in the art.

But, of course, I have a blind spot for my credentials. Right.

So. Skull dragged many guys out of pubs?

My first security course was 4 days. As far as the defensive training goes security industry provides almost nothing good.

 

[Chris Parker]

Steve.

I
Have
Applied
The
Techniques.

Dude. Read.

You "disagree" with this, Steve? Seriously? Do you have any idea of the level of arrogance to disagree with me when I state what I have actually done?

Steve. You have some issue with me. That's clear, and has been clear for a while. But frankly, you just make yourself look idiotic. You have not been able to counter or even contradict anything I've said, any advice or assessment I've made, or any comment I've given, so you're trying to attack my credibility... by "disagreeing" that I've actually done something. Something you have exactly no idea of whether I'm telling the truth or not (I am, of course, for the record). But you have this obsessive need to argue because it's me... regardless of the simple fact that you have zero experience or knowledge of any of the areas of this thread. You also aren't security, and you have no idea of what Ninjutsu methodology is, or how applicable it is. You simply have no dog in this fight... other than to harass me. Grow up, and get over it.

"you're right that I've never professionally engaged as a security agent." - Chris Parker

Nice, taking half a sentence out of context, and not allowing the second half.... which, for the record, covers the fact that, despite not working security myself, I have plenty of backup for my claim and assessment that our arts can be very suitable to use in a security context. Which means one of a few things... one, you only read what you want to see, and ignore anything you can't actually argue against. Two, you are purposefully cherrypicking half statements in order to try to present an untruthful image aimed at attacking me. Three, you are simply unable to see any context, or take anything you're told that doesn't suit your own preconceived notions. None of these are good.

Son, the rest is you fundamentally misunderstanding the difference between academic experience and practical experience. This thread is about security agents. You have zero actual experience in that field. It is that simple.

Don't use the term "son", Steve, you've never understood it, never use it correctly, and just look like a petty child when you try. It's quite sad, really.

The rest is you fundamentally misunderstanding the thread, and the many forms of evidence and support I am offering and speaking from. One more time, it includes practical experience on my part (just not in a professional/paid position context), as well as the personal practical experiences of many ninjutsu practitioners and teachers who HAVE worked as security agents in many different ways, including working doors in the rougher areas of Sydney and Melbourne, that I am personally aware of (my seniors, among them).

The thread is not about security agents. It's about the applicability and suitability of the Takamatsuden arts to someone who is working as a "security agent". As the exact type of "security agent" was never qualified (it might be bouncing at a rough club, it might be a mall cop situation, it might be an armed guard for money transfers, it could be anything else... we never got an answer), all you're doing is using your limited grasp and assuming what you think is meant. And, as my information covers security use (in a number of contexts), from a variety of sources, knowledge of the methods taught, and how they're taught, frankly, you have zero experience or legs to stand on here. It's that simple.

Training is not application. It is training. Lest the point be lost, I'm not taking away anything from you here. You seem to know ABOUT a lot of stuff. But for someone who is a stickler regarding the credentials and credibility of others, you have a gaping blind spot with regards to yourself, and continually speak with authority on topics you admit have no actual experience with.

Steve, that's utter crap. You've jumped on sword threads where you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and disagreed, argued, and disliked my posts, despite not wanting to "take anything away from me", and acknowledging my knowledge and expertise. You've done the same on multiple other threads where you don't have any idea what you're talking about, and have no actual argument to counter me, but are seeking only to argue against me because of some kind of issue you have with me personally. Make no mistake, you have so far made exactly zero counter or complaint against anything I've written, but find it necessary to "disagree" with my personal experience, and seek to discredit myself, despite the fact that you're problem is something I've never made any such claim of.

And my being a "stickler for credentials" is applied to myself first and foremost. I have not represented myself as being anything more or less than I am, and have been completely clear as to what level of personal experience I have, as well as where the rest of the support for my statements come from. Once again, grow up, and get over it.

You have, if I understand correctly, no actual experience in LEO, in the military or in security. You allege to have a lot of training and seem to have been around some of those folks. That's not the same thing.

I "allege"?!?! But you're not "looking to take anything away from me", right?

Steve. Your little vendetta against me is ridiculous, baseless, and sad.

But, to be clear one more time, I have never claimed to be LEO, Military (although neither of those are the same as Security either, so not overly relevant either), nor to have ever been employed as a security guard or agent in any professional setting (being paid to be a security guard). What I have done is gained a fair amount of insight into the field, as well as personally having utilised/used/employed/relied upon/however you want it put, the physical methods and techniques of our security teachings in real life engagements and situations... including the restraint and apprehension of an attempted shoplifter at my place of work... in fact, out of all of my personal situations where I have needed to rely on physical techniques from my art, the vast majority of the time it has been a security method/technique that I have employed; or what we refer to as "Non-Violent Restraint and Removal".

I think it's very important for folks to know what you do and don't have experience with.

Then maybe you should pay attention to what I've said... I've been incredibly clear about what I have personal experience in, what I have training in, what I have the experiences of others to depend on, and so on.

Seriously... read my posts. You're arguing from a position that I have been giving an impression that I'm highly experienced as a security guard... I have never once stated that, claimed it, or put the idea forth. I have stated exactly where my position is coming from, and you're trying to make it out as if I'm muddying the waters by ignoring what I've said, and insisting that I'm putting forth an idea I simply am not.

Read the damn posts.

And this is speaking as someone who has worked professionally in the business of training, professional development and building expertise in people for their jobs, from technicians to executives and managers at all levels in between. I am telling you that, as an expert in the area of professional training and building expertise, there is a real difference between practical experience and academic expertise that you understand intuitively when you see it in others, but fail to recognize in yourself.

You mean you've allegedly worked professionally in these fields, right?

And do you seriously want to revisit the whole "can you be an expert" thing again? Because that was again simply a case of you ignoring anything anyone said that contradicted or disagreed with your position, and accused them of not listening to you... despite the number of posters who didn't agree with your assessment, based on your lack of appreciation for a great many contexts outside of your small area of "expertise".

This entire string of posts is you using a lot of words to try and create a false equivalence between your training background and the real experience that comes from applying skills in their intended context. As I said above, this thread is about security agents. You have zero actual experience in that field. It is that simple.

You have zero experience in the art that this thread is actually about, Steve. We're in the Ninjutsu forum... with a question about Ninjutsu... in the context of security use (from a poster who is already in the field, and therefore doesn't really need to be told what is the reality there). And I have created no false equivalence of anything... I have been completely clear about my background. You have misread, deliberately or not, every single occasion. I honestly don't know what else to do to explain this to you....

You really need to take your blinders off when it comes to me, and actually read what I've written.

Why is this important? As I have said a few times, the point isn't to take anything away from you.

Crap.

It is to put your critique of others and your opinions in proper context.

No, it's not. To do that, you'd need to have the first clue what the proper context is. And your failure to read simple words makes it clear you are unable to do that.

When you disagree with others in this thread who do have experience as security agents, it is relevant that you do not have this experience.

Crap. I have disagreed with drop bear, based not on his security work, but based on his lack of knowledge of the art in question. His comment that he has "never seen ninjutsu work in security" means nothing... I also haven't seen FMA work in security, but I'm sure it could... I've just never seen a security guard use it. In other words, the only security agent I've disagreed with is someone who doesn't have the experience to make the claims he was using. The work as a security agent was not the defining aspect... hence the forum this thread is in.

It is particularly relevant when you dismiss these informed opinions as uninformed because they are different from your own.

Informed, based on what? Whole context, Steve... you're missing 80% of it.

This doesn't mean you're wrong. It means that your opinions need to stand alone and not rest on some mistaken impression that you are an expert in a field where you are not.

What the hell are you going on about?!?! I have never rested my opinion/assessment on simply "me being right"... I have listed the support I have for my opinion multiple times... never once claiming it's because I "worked in security", which you seem to think I've implied.

And, one more time... Ninjutsu forum... Ninjutsu question... the focus is on Ninjutsu, in the context of Security, not Security with the possibility of Ninjutsu. Now tell me what the relevant expertise is.

This would be a no-brainer if you were more clear about this yourself, but you just don't seem to have that awareness. As I said, it's a blind spot.

Dude, your inability to actually read what I've written, thanks to that huge chip on your shoulder, deciding I've said things I've never said, or are claiming things I've never claimed, means the blind spot is not mine.

So. Skull dragged many guys out of pubs?

So your 20 years in security has told you that's the only application or type of security ever seen or used?

My first security course was 4 days. As far as the defensive training goes security industry provides almost nothing good.

Er... okay.... ? And that changes what, exactly?

 

[drop bear]

So your 20 years in security has told you that's the only application or type of security ever seen or used?

Er... okay.... ? And that changes what, exactly?

One leads in to the other. So quite often the people putting together the courses are not working from any idea at all as to what those courses should contain.

But because they put together the courses think they do have a clue. they are an expert because they say they are. And they should know as they are the expert.

Dunning kruger basically.

 

[dunc]

So it seems to me that we don't have folks on this forum who have experience in XKan styles AND have operated as a security / LEO professional

We do have folks, like @Chris Parker and myself, who can contribute on a couple of levels:
a) We know people with a lot of experience in both and can pass on what they tell us (e.g. one of the most prominent UK members of the Bujinkan has extensive experience as a police officer - Bujinkan King Dojo 武神館 キング 道場)
b) We can illustrate specific techniques / principles / strategies that may be appropriate and have a discussion on a technical level

Other than that it's difficult to see where this thread can go as the folks with security experience who are contributing don't seem to have direct experience in what the xkan training entails (forgive me if I've misunderstood or missed something)

 

[drop bear]

So it seems to me that we don't have folks on this forum who have experience in XKan styles AND have operated as a security / LEO professional

We do have folks, like @Chris Parker and myself, who can contribute on a couple of levels:
a) We know people with a lot of experience in both and can pass on what they tell us (e.g. one of the most prominent UK members of the Bujinkan has extensive experience as a police officer - Bujinkan King Dojo 武神館 キング 道場)
b) We can illustrate specific techniques / principles / strategies that may be appropriate and have a discussion on a technical level

Other than that it's difficult to see where this thread can go as the folks with security experience who are contributing don't seem to have direct experience in what the xkan training entails (forgive me if I've misunderstood or missed something)

Ok what techniques do you think will work?

 

[Steve]

So it seems to me that we don't have folks on this forum who have experience in XKan styles AND have operated as a security / LEO professional

We do have folks, like @Chris Parker and myself, who can contribute on a couple of levels:
a) We know people with a lot of experience in both and can pass on what they tell us (e.g. one of the most prominent UK members of the Bujinkan has extensive experience as a police officer - Bujinkan King Dojo 武神館 キング 道場)
b) We can illustrate specific techniques / principles / strategies that may be appropriate and have a discussion on a technical level

Other than that it's difficult to see where this thread can go as the folks with security experience who are contributing don't seem to have direct experience in what the xkan training entails (forgive me if I've misunderstood or missed something)

the folks with the training don’t seem to have direct experience with what the job entails.

Actually, advice could be given if the folks in both areas just acknowledged their own lack of expertise and respected the expertise of the other. That’s not what happens, though. @Chris Parker doesn’t do that. If he states an opinion, regardless of whether he has experience or not, his ego can not accept any push back.

His critique of my post boils down to one thing. I must not have read his post. In his mind, if I read his words and truly understood them, how could I possibly disagree? Lots of words, for sure.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think there is a useful distinction to be made between being experienced in a field and being informed (even well-informed) about that field.

Chris is experienced in the study of the Takamatsuden arts ("ninjutsu") and is informed regarding the needs of a security professional and the application of the Takamatsuden arts for those needs based on the experience of others. (I don't really count the apprehension of a shoplifter as significant experience. I dealt with a number of shoplifters back when I worked retail, but I don't count that as having security experience.)

Along similar lines, I could say that I am well-informed regarding the sport of MMA. I've trained in MMA classes. I've sparred and trained with amateur and pro MMA fighters. I've had MMA fighters in classes that I've taught. I know the rules of MMA, I know the history, and I've watched hundreds of MMA fights. However, I've never fought an MMA fight in the cage. I've never been the only or primary coach for a MMA fighter. I've never been a referee for a MMA fight. I've never run a MMA promotion or done matchmaking for an MMA event. I'm knowledgeable about MMA, but my understanding of the sport is from an outside perspective. The experience of someone on the inside is qualitatively different.

 

[Steve]

I think there is a useful distinction to be made between being experienced in a field and being informed (even well-informed) about that field.

Chris is experienced in the study of the Takamatsuden arts ("ninjutsu") and is informed regarding the needs of a security professional and the application of the Takamatsuden arts for those needs based on the experience of others. (I don't really count the apprehension of a shoplifter as significant experience. I dealt with a number of shoplifters back when I worked retail, but I don't count that as having security experience.)

Along similar lines, I could say that I am well-informed regarding the sport of MMA. I've trained in MMA classes. I've sparred and trained with amateur and pro MMA fighters. I've had MMA fighters in classes that I've taught. I know the rules of MMA, I know the history, and I've watched hundreds of MMA fights. However, I've never fought an MMA fight in the cage. I've never been the only or primary coach for a MMA fighter. I've never been a referee for a MMA fight. I've never run a MMA promotion or done matchmaking for an MMA event. I'm knowledgeable about MMA, but my understanding of the sport is from an outside perspective. The experience of someone on the inside is qualitatively different.

This is exactly the distinction I'm pointing out.

@Chris Parker, you are the flight instructor who has never flown a plane. This is not a problem at all, provided you understand the very important distinction. I don't know that you do, though.

 

[Steve]

You "disagree" with this, Steve? Seriously? Do you have any idea of the level of arrogance to disagree with me when I state what I have actually done?

Steve. You have some issue with me. That's clear, and has been clear for a while. But frankly, you just make yourself look idiotic. You have not been able to counter or even contradict anything I've said, any advice or assessment I've made, or any comment I've given, so you're trying to attack my credibility... by "disagreeing" that I've actually done something. Something you have exactly no idea of whether I'm telling the truth or not (I am, of course, for the record). But you have this obsessive need to argue because it's me... regardless of the simple fact that you have zero experience or knowledge of any of the areas of this thread. You also aren't security, and you have no idea of what Ninjutsu methodology is, or how applicable it is. You simply have no dog in this fight... other than to harass me. Grow up, and get over it.



Nice, taking half a sentence out of context, and not allowing the second half.... which, for the record, covers the fact that, despite not working security myself, I have plenty of backup for my claim and assessment that our arts can be very suitable to use in a security context. Which means one of a few things... one, you only read what you want to see, and ignore anything you can't actually argue against. Two, you are purposefully cherrypicking half statements in order to try to present an untruthful image aimed at attacking me. Three, you are simply unable to see any context, or take anything you're told that doesn't suit your own preconceived notions. None of these are good.



Don't use the term "son", Steve, you've never understood it, never use it correctly, and just look like a petty child when you try. It's quite sad, really.

The rest is you fundamentally misunderstanding the thread, and the many forms of evidence and support I am offering and speaking from. One more time, it includes practical experience on my part (just not in a professional/paid position context), as well as the personal practical experiences of many ninjutsu practitioners and teachers who HAVE worked as security agents in many different ways, including working doors in the rougher areas of Sydney and Melbourne, that I am personally aware of (my seniors, among them).

The thread is not about security agents. It's about the applicability and suitability of the Takamatsuden arts to someone who is working as a "security agent". As the exact type of "security agent" was never qualified (it might be bouncing at a rough club, it might be a mall cop situation, it might be an armed guard for money transfers, it could be anything else... we never got an answer), all you're doing is using your limited grasp and assuming what you think is meant. And, as my information covers security use (in a number of contexts), from a variety of sources, knowledge of the methods taught, and how they're taught, frankly, you have zero experience or legs to stand on here. It's that simple.



Steve, that's utter crap. You've jumped on sword threads where you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and disagreed, argued, and disliked my posts, despite not wanting to "take anything away from me", and acknowledging my knowledge and expertise. You've done the same on multiple other threads where you don't have any idea what you're talking about, and have no actual argument to counter me, but are seeking only to argue against me because of some kind of issue you have with me personally. Make no mistake, you have so far made exactly zero counter or complaint against anything I've written, but find it necessary to "disagree" with my personal experience, and seek to discredit myself, despite the fact that you're problem is something I've never made any such claim of.

And my being a "stickler for credentials" is applied to myself first and foremost. I have not represented myself as being anything more or less than I am, and have been completely clear as to what level of personal experience I have, as well as where the rest of the support for my statements come from. Once again, grow up, and get over it.



I "allege"?!?! But you're not "looking to take anything away from me", right?

Steve. Your little vendetta against me is ridiculous, baseless, and sad.

But, to be clear one more time, I have never claimed to be LEO, Military (although neither of those are the same as Security either, so not overly relevant either), nor to have ever been employed as a security guard or agent in any professional setting (being paid to be a security guard). What I have done is gained a fair amount of insight into the field, as well as personally having utilised/used/employed/relied upon/however you want it put, the physical methods and techniques of our security teachings in real life engagements and situations... including the restraint and apprehension of an attempted shoplifter at my place of work... in fact, out of all of my personal situations where I have needed to rely on physical techniques from my art, the vast majority of the time it has been a security method/technique that I have employed; or what we refer to as "Non-Violent Restraint and Removal".



Then maybe you should pay attention to what I've said... I've been incredibly clear about what I have personal experience in, what I have training in, what I have the experiences of others to depend on, and so on.

Seriously... read my posts. You're arguing from a position that I have been giving an impression that I'm highly experienced as a security guard... I have never once stated that, claimed it, or put the idea forth. I have stated exactly where my position is coming from, and you're trying to make it out as if I'm muddying the waters by ignoring what I've said, and insisting that I'm putting forth an idea I simply am not.

Read the damn posts.



You mean you've allegedly worked professionally in these fields, right?

And do you seriously want to revisit the whole "can you be an expert" thing again? Because that was again simply a case of you ignoring anything anyone said that contradicted or disagreed with your position, and accused them of not listening to you... despite the number of posters who didn't agree with your assessment, based on your lack of appreciation for a great many contexts outside of your small area of "expertise".



You have zero experience in the art that this thread is actually about, Steve. We're in the Ninjutsu forum... with a question about Ninjutsu... in the context of security use (from a poster who is already in the field, and therefore doesn't really need to be told what is the reality there). And I have created no false equivalence of anything... I have been completely clear about my background. You have misread, deliberately or not, every single occasion. I honestly don't know what else to do to explain this to you....

You really need to take your blinders off when it comes to me, and actually read what I've written.



Crap.



No, it's not. To do that, you'd need to have the first clue what the proper context is. And your failure to read simple words makes it clear you are unable to do that.



Crap. I have disagreed with drop bear, based not on his security work, but based on his lack of knowledge of the art in question. His comment that he has "never seen ninjutsu work in security" means nothing... I also haven't seen FMA work in security, but I'm sure it could... I've just never seen a security guard use it. In other words, the only security agent I've disagreed with is someone who doesn't have the experience to make the claims he was using. The work as a security agent was not the defining aspect... hence the forum this thread is in.



Informed, based on what? Whole context, Steve... you're missing 80% of it.



What the hell are you going on about?!?! I have never rested my opinion/assessment on simply "me being right"... I have listed the support I have for my opinion multiple times... never once claiming it's because I "worked in security", which you seem to think I've implied.

And, one more time... Ninjutsu forum... Ninjutsu question... the focus is on Ninjutsu, in the context of Security, not Security with the possibility of Ninjutsu. Now tell me what the relevant expertise is.



Dude, your inability to actually read what I've written, thanks to that huge chip on your shoulder, deciding I've said things I've never said, or are claiming things I've never claimed, means the blind spot is not mine.



So your 20 years in security has told you that's the only application or type of security ever seen or used?



Er... okay.... ? And that changes what, exactly?

Hey kiddo. I don't have a problem with you. I don't know you. I do have a problem with your unwillingness to acknowledge your lack of expertise in areas where you lack experience. And honestly, that would be no problem, if you took more care to qualify your areas of expertise. You mislead people. I don't know whether you do it intentionally or not. But you do. The way you describe your own expertise is misleading. You once alleged to have trained in BJJ. I asked you what rank you hold and you never responded. I suspect you know a couple guys and "work out" with them from time to time. If that. But that doesn't stop you from commenting with authority on threads regarding BJJ.

It's not you I have a problem with. It's the behavior I'm describing above. That's a problem for me.

The other behavior I have a problem with, child, is your intentional use of diminutives to establish dominance over other posters. Son, it's just rude, and while this has been explained to you many times, champ, you continue to do it. And you have acknowledged that you do it on purpose. Right, sport? It's not okay. I do have a problem with that. It's not "friendly." Rather, it is in my opinion aggressive and unfriendly.