Modernization of Ninjutsu

[Jusroc]

back to the original intention of the post.
I think that Ninjutsu could be resigned for the modern world.

Not sport orientated
But for helping people become effective at defending themselves, others and society under various different circumstances.

Problem with sport is that the strong willed, intelligent and strong bodied often prevail.
The problem with that, is that those who are already superior intellectually, and physically, with stronger will power aren't the most vulnerable.

Through life, being diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, and coming into contact with loads of other people with ASD. I have realised that the people who need to learn to defend themselves the most, can often be those who will not flourish in a competitive combat sport environment, no matter how good the style is.

That is a flaw with a lot of martial art classes, is that in some cases, the students (and sometime even the instructors) turn into even bigger bullies.

I think that Stephen K Hayes is an interesting guy, open minded to developments. but also has a strong focus in the moral / spiritual aspects of ninjutsu.

As Ninjutsu, learnt un-tethered to a good honest spiritual path, can be extremely dangerous, especially to self stylist wanna be ninja's who learn the style so to use the art for their own selfish purposes.

People forget, Ninjutsu really was ancient spy craft, which in its full authenticity does teach people how to murder and ruin peoples lives.

People who are not grounded with strong spiritual values, may be endanger of being tempted into using illegal harmful ancient ninja strategy to get what they want out of life.

I have seen it myself, with several of the people whom i grew up with.
Several of the people are now psychotic, and I believe it is possible that they have taken life or lives,
while experimenting with strategies they have picked up from reading in the historical books on ninjutsu.

Note. The type of things these people have done they learnt from historical stories rather than direct teachings from a qualified and grounded instructor.

That is a danger with the arts that are associated with the Historical Ninja.
Tend to attract more than their fare share of nuts, who are attracted to the covert criminal methodology.

Nothing against legitimate schools.
The nuts would argue (using volatile mind science arguments) that in reality, their is no difference in them making up their own style or practising an established style. both were created by men after all.

This being true the authentic ninjutsu however has a lineage and a responsibility is there for the instructors to teach morally, ideally, while giving spiritual guidance to ensure that no one ends up on the wrong path.

This perhaps is something that needs to be emphasised in all martial arts.
Especially in this day and age of MMA (which i also like)

That is my take on it anyhow, for what its worth.

 

[drop bear]

Rickson is much harder to hold down because he trains in that environment. It's not a matter of a difference between "modernisation vs just working well", as you haven't really differentiated them for one thing, but more importantly, you're just saying that training to a focus and a context works better for that focus and context... well, yeah. The biggest issue is you guys all want to use your focus and context to represent all martial approaches... and the world is a lot bigger than that.

Ok. It was suggested here somewhere that say instead of learning sword defense you would learn beer bottle defence.

But in essence if you have the base components right it doesn't matter that much.

And if you don't then modernisation won't help.

Which leads on to BJJ. As a general the guys doing grappling for self defense have nowhere near the knowledge of the Rickson gracies.

And so you are better off training with the knowledgeable guy and converting it. Rather than train the conversion with a less knowledgeable guy.

And so when you are modernising your system. It has to work first.

 

[Hanzou]

back to the original intention of the post.
I think that Ninjutsu could be resigned for the modern world.

Not sport orientated
But for helping people become effective at defending themselves, others and society under various different circumstances.

Problem with sport is that the strong willed, intelligent and strong bodied often prevail.
The problem with that, is that those who are already superior intellectually, and physically, with stronger will power aren't the most vulnerable.

What exactly is "sport oriented"?

BJJ has a sport component, but it also has a self defense component. The benefit of the sport component is that it keeps the martial art sharp and enhances the overall skill of the participants. The sport component also allows quite a bit of innovation because competitors are constantly trying to find ways to be better than their competition. This bleeds back into the self defense portion of the art. Leg locks are a prime example of this.

Also any martial art worth its salt should make you strong willed, intelligent, and strong bodied. If it doesn't, then it isn't doing its job and you should look elsewhere.

The problem with arts like Ninjutsu is that there isn't a competitive impetus for new ideas and concepts to flourish. Nor is there a true testing ground to make sure that even the old methods are sound and practical. Thus the art stagnates and it begins to devolve instead of evolve.

 

[drop bear]

back to the original intention of the post.
I think that Ninjutsu could be resigned for the modern world.

Not sport orientated
But for helping people become effective at defending themselves, others and society under various different circumstances.

Problem with sport is that the strong willed, intelligent and strong bodied often prevail.
The problem with that, is that those who are already superior intellectually, and physically, with stronger will power aren't the most vulnerable.

Through life, being diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder, and coming into contact with loads of other people with ASD. I have realised that the people who need to learn to defend themselves the most, can often be those who will not flourish in a competitive combat sport environment, no matter how good the style is.

That is a flaw with a lot of martial art classes, is that in some cases, the students (and sometime even the instructors) turn into even bigger bullies.

I think that Stephen K Hayes is an interesting guy, open minded to developments. but also has a strong focus in the moral / spiritual aspects of ninjutsu.

As Ninjutsu, learnt un-tethered to a good honest spiritual path, can be extremely dangerous, especially to self stylist wanna be ninja's who learn the style so to use the art for their own selfish purposes.

People forget, Ninjutsu really was ancient spy craft, which in its full authenticity does teach people how to murder and ruin peoples lives.

People who are not grounded with strong spiritual values, may be endanger of being tempted into using illegal harmful ancient ninja strategy to get what they want out of life.

I have seen it myself, with several of the people whom i grew up with.
Several of the people are now psychotic, and I believe it is possible that they have taken life or lives,
while experimenting with strategies they have picked up from reading in the historical books on ninjutsu.

Note. The type of things these people have done they learnt from historical stories rather than direct teachings from a qualified and grounded instructor.

That is a danger with the arts that are associated with the Historical Ninja.
Tend to attract more than their fare share of nuts, who are attracted to the covert criminal methodology.

Nothing against legitimate schools.
The nuts would argue (using volatile mind science arguments) that in reality, their is no difference in them making up their own style or practising an established style. both were created by men after all.

This being true the authentic ninjutsu however has a lineage and a responsibility is there for the instructors to teach morally, ideally, while giving spiritual guidance to ensure that no one ends up on the wrong path.

This perhaps is something that needs to be emphasised in all martial arts.
Especially in this day and age of MMA (which i also like)

That is my take on it anyhow, for what its worth.

In relation to this. Here is a segment on gendered marketing.

See if you can work out how it applies.

 

[Jusroc]

I think that many of the traditional jiu jitsu techniques (including the ones that come from Ninjutsu)
technically work, as the body physiology hasn't changed.

What has changed is how people attack.
So its not necessarily the techniques that need to change, its how people attack / i.e. how you train to use the techniques.

Years ago I did aikido for two years, after haven trained in Kenpo for 10 years, and later I did BJJ and Judo.

It is my opinion that the aikido techniques work (mostly as arm locks) because they are technically correct,
the way that the Aikidoka trains however, often isn't as realistic as they could do, which means that the Aikidoka doesn't pick up as much experience applying their techniques against a realistic full forcefully resisting moving, thinking, free fighting opponent.

Although arguably it may be hard to realise such a latter training method due to the lethality of some of the techniques used. Even in Judo,and BJJ which has taken out a great deal of the more dangerous techniques, it is still easy to get injured if one is not careful.

I do think that for some techniques however, it would be possible to pressure test them to a level
(for example, ikkyo and sankyo could be applied with control against a simulated free fighting attacker, as long as the attacker is aware of the dangers and learns not to be cocky and not submit / be careful when put into a lock).

That is what i recommend, although, needs to be approached progressively. and apply extreme caution at every step of the way, as if you do not, you can do a great deal of damage to your opponents body including permanent damage to your partners limbs / ligaments / bones.

 

[Yamabushii]

In the sense of a physical altercation/violent sudden attack.

Wait...so you have never had to physically use your Ninpo training to defend yourself or someone else?

bluntly, with your few years of training and involvement, you're not in that much of a position to laugh at people who have have been doing it a lot longer, and understand the layout a lot better than you do.

Bluntly, you're too arrogant for your own good. I have spent about 15-17 years in martial arts as a whole at this point. Your three decades in Ninpo means very little when you have admitted in this very thread that you practice 95% just kata in your training, and also that you have never even had to use your physical techniques against a stranger whose intentions you know nothing about. There are sadly many people who have spent several years just practicing kata only to find out their techniques don't actually work against people resisting. I am starting to see quite a bit of similarity between yourself and Rokas before he realized his years of practicing kata did very little for him. You are not my senior, my friend.

Best of luck to you in your training.

 

[Jusroc]

Wait...so you have never had to physically use your Ninpo training to defend yourself or someone else?




Bluntly, you're too arrogant for your own good. I have spent about 15-17 years in martial arts as a whole at this point. Your three decades in Ninpo means very little when you have admitted in this very thread that you practice 95% just kata in your training, and also that you have never even had to use your physical techniques against a stranger whose intentions you know nothing about. There are sadly many people who have spent several years just practicing kata only to find out their techniques don't actually work against people resisting. I am starting to see quite a bit of similarity between yourself and Rokas before he realized his years of practicing kata did very little for him. You are not my senior, my friend.

Best of luck to you in your training.

Hello Mr Yamabushi
Just out of interest, is your last post aimed at me?
There are some quotes in your post which are nothing to do with me. So am a little confused.

 

[Yamabushii]

Hello Mr Yamabushi
Just out of interest, is your last post aimed at me?
There are some quotes in your post which are nothing to do with me. So am a little confused.

No, apologies. Still learning how to quote properly in this forum. That message was intended for @Chris Parker

 

[Jusroc]

Hi Mr Yamabushii
I understand. I also can find forums a bit of a challenge at times.
I don't always do what I am supposed and am sometimes oblivious to people's
expectations due to rules.
Thanks

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Still learning how to quote properly in this forum.

If you want to just quote selected text rather than an entire post, first select the text you wish to quote. You should then get a little pop-up offering you the choice to "quote" or "reply". If you choose "reply", then you will begin a new post with just that selection quoted. If you choose "quote", then the selection will be added to a sort of clipboard and you can select/quote other pieces of text as you wish. Then when you are ready to make a post, use the "Insert quotes" button at the bottom of the Post Reply text box. This will allow you to insert whichever selected quotes you like in whatever order.

 

[Jusroc]

If you want to just quote selected text rather than an entire post, first select the text you wish to quote. You should then get a little pop-up offering you the choice to "quote" or "reply". If you choose "reply", then you will begin a new post with just that selection quoted. If you choose "quote", then the selection will be added to a sort of clipboard and you can select/quote other pieces of text as you wish. Then when you are ready to make a post, use the "Insert quotes" button at the bottom of the Post Reply text box. This will allow you to insert whichever selected quotes you like in whatever order.

Thanks for the advice. I shall keep it in mind the next time i need to quote.
Thanks

 

[Yamabushii]

If you want to just quote selected text rather than an entire post, first select the text you wish to quote. You should then get a little pop-up offering you the choice to "quote" or "reply". If you choose "reply", then you will begin a new post with just that selection quoted. If you choose "quote", then the selection will be added to a sort of clipboard and you can select/quote other pieces of text as you wish. Then when you are ready to make a post, use the "Insert quotes" button at the bottom of the Post Reply text box. This will allow you to insert whichever selected quotes you like in whatever order.

Thank you

 

[LeftHandFree]

Hi All,

A bit of background to set some context from my position first. I haven't posted here in a very long time. I used to post on martial arts forums quite often when I first began my training in Ninpo in 2012. At that time, as a complete novice to the art (not in martial arts as a whole), I thought I had all the answers and everyone else sharing their opposing opinions online about Ninpo were wrong. A few years later my teacher left the Genbukan and I with him. It was at that point that I truly began to realize how much fluff and nonsense is in the world of traditional Ninpo within the big three Takamatsuden orgs today (though admittedly I have no experience with the Jinenkan). Don't get me wrong - there are tons of incredibly effective techniques. I love the art, but, respectfully, I don't think Soke Hatsumi or Tanemura are running their organizations in a manner that is relevant to today's world. Living in Japan I wonder if they are sort of stuck in their own bubble.

Living in the U.S., many of us are fortunate enough to be a part of a mixing bowl of martial arts. We have almost every single major to minor martial arts style in every major metropolitan area of the U.S. This opens the doors to quite a bit of additional knowledge for us to take advantage of compared to people in some other countries. In our current organization, for the physical techniques we focus heavily on Jujutsu. We're in the process of becoming certified to teach a few additional modern systems as well, but when it comes specifically to the shinobi techniques, I've found myself teaching it less and less. Now, we just had our annual shinobi seminar which is around 30 hours of training in a single weekend, both indoors and outdoors, but most of the "ninjutsu" we teach is primarily strategy, philosophy, history, and sometimes spirituality if someone specifically asks about it. Of course there are more "shinobi-centric" weapons techniques, and a bit of taijutsu, but again most of the physical techniques are really just some forms of jujutsu.

With that said, my opinion is that we live in a time of relative peace, compared to feudal Japan at least. In most countries today, you can walk around safely to and from your home to the grocery store and back. In some areas you may get jumped, but at least you're probably not worrying about an entire clan on horseback sacking your apartment the moment you leave. Shinobi no mono/Samurai essentially trained 24/7 and lived for a single purpose. That type of training was incredibly different. It required a level of mastery obtained through countless hours of shedding actual blood, sweat, and tears on a daily basis for many years. Our lives aren't that way, unless you're in military special forces. We pay $XXX to train, often times under a legal agreement, and do it either as a hobby, for fitness, for clout, or, sometimes, some of us are truly passionate. Most of us also have our "main" lives which is supporting our families and working, most of the times having nothing to do with our training. However, many practitioners are posting videos doing funky hand signs, wearing black shinobi shozoku in broad day light, and/or sitting on broken tree trunks doing awful ukemi, meanwhile hash tagging everything and end up getting laughed at online.

Regardless, I find that Ninpo is still incredibly useful today as long as you're teaching it from a realistic perspective. I advertise my school as a Japanese Jujutsu school even though we cover a lot of Ninpo, but I don't segregate the two when I teach them, often times not even mentioning it. The problem I have with some of the traditional X-kans is the manner in which they teach. They discourage tournaments/competitions, so few people actually spar. My students are constantly sparring and doing randori drills. I encourage them to go out and learn other things as well. It's a very Jeet Kune Do approach (take what's useful and discard what isn't). We train with compliant uke to let people get techniques down then switch to randori or sparring so they learn how to do them without compliant uke as well. Our students will throw a boxing jab and cross instead of a traditional tsuki (lunging in straight hand punch and waiting for eternity), and the uke's attacks are always some form of a realistic attack. This prepares my students for knowing how to actually put someone in a position to go for an omote gyaku or waki gatame or goja dori or oni kudaki or seoi nage or kubi nage or ganseki nage, etc. I find all of these are severely lacking in your average X-kan school and I have rarely seen that kind of training being pushed from top-down leadership as well.

So my questions for anyone willing to answer:

1) Do you find the traditional teachings of Ninjutsu are still applicable and effective in today's world?
1a) If so, do you have successful real-world experience in applying your techniques in self-defense or in the defense of someone else?
2) Do you think Ninjutsu needs a massive modernization in its methods of teachings in the big 3 X-kans?

Disclaimer: No disrespect to anyone in the Buj/Gen/Jin orgs since I know some folks in the orgs that thankfully don't fit the description above. They are, however, the minority exception.

Sorry for raising a zombie thread. The topic somewhat reminds me of a video I saw recently about early Daito Ryu practitioners testing their skills by competing in Sumo matches.

Here it is in fact:

I think, to an extent, for someone looking to pressure test their skills there are modern outlets that, though limited, can help refine techniques against a resisting opponent.

Standing armlocks, wristlocks, and throws can be practiced in a BJJ setting. Plenty of schools start standing, particularly in competition training. I'd consider BJJ a better environment than Judo for working throws as giving up your back to get the ippon- which isn't uncommon in Judo- is undesirable in BJJ and not great for self defense either.

Nippon Kempo is another sport that allows both strikes and throws. I'm not sure about standing locks but I recall seeing some before. I just don't know the full ruleset.

I think the general point being that, while yes, sport settings have their limitations, if you use them as a training tool to refine what you've learned in your X-kan training (I presume you mean X-kan when you say Ninjutsu) they can be useful by providing resisting opponents.

I think in that regard there are plenty of kata that can be applied either directly or with a bit of alteration (like maybe grabbing the collar and pushing the head back vs striking with an an ura shuto in a BJJ setting)...

And some that maybe don't work so well under pressure. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Anyway, point being, if Daito Ryu guys could do it back in the day, it doesn't seem like it should be off limits nowdays either.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway, point being, if Daito Ryu guys could do it back in the day, it doesn't seem like it should be off limits nowdays either.

They won't. I mean can you see your average ninja subjecting themselves to this?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2429158743810084

 

[LeftHandFree]

They won't. I mean can you see your average ninja subjecting themselves to this?

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2429158743810084

Do I think the average ninja would subject themselves to that?

No. But that’s not exclusive to the x-kans. I think the majority of people who study kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing.

But there are some, like the OP, who are. My point is that there is already a methodology for it, and has been for quite some time.

Although in the specific case of Sumo, that’s probably pretty hard to find. Lots of other options these days though.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think the majority of people who study kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing.

Personally I wouldn’t presume to know what the majority of a whole category of people are interested in. I suspect interests and motivations run a broad range.

 

[LeftHandFree]

Personally I wouldn’t presume to know what the majority of a whole category of people are interested in. I suspect interests and motivations run a broad range.

Ok, to better phrase that, a majority of people who I have met that train kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing, or at least the kind of pressure testing that judo style randori and/or soaring offers.

But actually I think the larger point is something we can probably agree on. There are plenty of people in the x-kans or other TMA that are both interested and perfectly happy to test their skills under pressure.

Also- and I should have mentioned this in my first post- the argument that being unable to do eye gouges or finger locks while sparring means you can’t pressure test these arts is- in my opinion at least- not entirely valid. There is plenty that you can test and it was done in the past as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, to better phrase that, a majority of people who I have met that train kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing, or at least the kind of pressure testing that judo style randori and/or soaring offers.

But actually I think the larger point is something we can probably agree on. There are plenty of people in the x-kans or other TMA that are both interested and perfectly happy to test their skills under pressure.

Also- and I should have mentioned this in my first post- the argument that being unable to do eye gouges or finger locks while sparring means you can’t pressure test these arts is- in my opinion at least- not entirely valid. There is plenty that you can test and it was done in the past as well.

I can find agreement there.

 

[drop bear]

Do I think the average ninja would subject themselves to that?

No. But that’s not exclusive to the x-kans. I think the majority of people who study kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing.

But there are some, like the OP, who are. My point is that there is already a methodology for it, and has been for quite some time.

Although in the specific case of Sumo, that’s probably pretty hard to find. Lots of other options these days though.

That is Australia. Apparently we have a pretty robust amateur Sumo scene.

https://m.facebook.com/sumoaustralia/

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That is Australia. Apparently we have a pretty robust amateur Sumo scene.

https://m.facebook.com/sumoaustralia/

It's been growing rapidly in the mainland U.S. over the last few years as well. (Hawaii has long had a strong Sumo tradition.) It's still pretty niche compared to most other combat sports but we're making progress.