Modernization of Ninjutsu

[Steve]

It's been growing rapidly in the mainland U.S. over the last few years as well. (Hawaii has long had a strong Sumo tradition.) It's still pretty niche compared to most other combat sports but we're making progress.

Nothing near me, unfortunately. I'm game to give it a shot.

 

[LeftHandFree]

That is Australia. Apparently we have a pretty robust amateur Sumo scene.

https://m.facebook.com/sumoaustralia/

That’s pretty cool. I’m in the states and while I know they exist, I’ve never seen a sumo school anywhere near where I live.

it genuinely seems like it would be a lot of fun.

 

[drop bear]

That’s pretty cool. I’m in the states and while I know they exist, I’ve never seen a sumo school anywhere near where I live.

it genuinely seems like it would be a lot of fun.

I mean hey if you really wanted to call yourself a samurai.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That’s pretty cool. I’m in the states and while I know they exist, I’ve never seen a sumo school anywhere near where I live.

it genuinely seems like it would be a lot of fun.

Right now it's more local clubs than dedicated schools in most places.

 

[LeftHandFree]

Right now it's more local clubs than dedicated schools in most places.

Honestly that would be enough for me. It’s not like I’m looking to compete in sumo tournaments.

And regardless, Sumo aside there are lots of other options for people looking to branch out and pressure test these days.

 

[drop bear]

Honestly that would be enough for me. It’s not like I’m looking to compete in sumo tournaments.

And regardless, Sumo aside there are lots of other options for people looking to branch out and pressure test these days.

Yeah but if we are talking about having some sort of link to traditional Japanese martial arts, samurai and all that goes with it. Sumo would probably be closer to the real thing than ninjitsu.

 

[LeftHandFree]

Yeah but if we are talking about having some sort of link to traditional Japanese martial arts, samurai and all that goes with it. Sumo would probably be closer to the real thing than ninjitsu.

Yes, you are absolutely right. But I wasn't trying to address the whole samurai/ninja thing, which may not have come across so apologies on that.

My main point was more along the lines of, if you want to modernize ninjutsu or (x-kan training) as the OP suggested, it's not so much trying to turn it into MMA (in which case just do MMA) but finding ways to work the techniques you've learned in an environment that allows for proper resistance. And far from being a new thought even for classical budo, it was done with Daito Ryu and Sumo long ago. There's also plenty of evidence various jujutsu schools had some type of randori. It's not that Kano invented it as a concept, just took it to another level as a training tool (in Japan, at the time I should add).

 

[drop bear]

Yes, you are absolutely right. But I wasn't trying to address the whole samurai/ninja thing, which may not have come across so apologies on that.

My main point was more along the lines of, if you want to modernize ninjutsu or (x-kan training) as the OP suggested, it's not so much trying to turn it into MMA (in which case just do MMA) but finding ways to work the techniques you've learned in an environment that allows for proper resistance. And far from being a new thought even for classical budo, it was done with Daito Ryu and Sumo long ago. There's also plenty of evidence various jujutsu schools had some type of randori. It's not that Kano invented it as a concept, just took it to another level as a training tool (in Japan, at the time I should add).

You could also do in house sumo. Keeping the style and live training within the same sort of theme.

 

[LeftHandFree]

You could also do in house sumo. Keeping the style and live training within the same sort of theme.

True.

I’d personally be a bit wary of any kind of in house training of an art that I hadn’t already had fairly comprehensive formal training in under a qualified instructor.

But I live in an area inundated with judo and bjj so I can be a bit more picky in that regard. If that weren’t the case then yeah, train however you can.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The topic somewhat reminds me of a video I saw recently about early Daito Ryu practitioners testing their skills by competing in Sumo matches.

BTW, Sumo is actually a pretty cool development/testing environment for aiki based arts because the ruleset incentivizes super-committed full body attacks. It's harder to get that aiki-style blending with the attack from a boxer or a judoka because they will typically stay more moderated. In Sumo, there are rewards for coming in 100% which also creates opportunities for someone who can time a counter successfully.

 

[LeftHandFree]

BTW, Sumo is actually a pretty cool development/testing environment for aiki based arts because the ruleset incentivizes super-committed full body attacks. It's harder to get that aiki-style blending with the attack from a boxer or a judoka because they will typically stay more moderated. In Sumo, there are rewards for coming in 100% which also creates opportunities for someone who can time a counter successfully.

That’s a good point. I think that aspect of sumo is in some ways closer to a brawl than any kind of sparring.

It also does show someone how difficult it is to time some of those techniques against a fully committed opponent

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That’s a good point. I think that aspect of sumo is in some ways closer to a brawl than any kind of sparring.

It also does show someone how difficult it is to time some of those techniques against a fully committed opponent

Yep. One of the challenges in Sumo is that you only have a split second to stop or redirect your opponent before he puts you out of the ring. After that it doesn't matter if you manage to reverse your opponent, you've already lost.

 

[LeftHandFree]

Yep. One of the challenges in Sumo is that you only have a split second to stop or redirect your opponent before he puts you out of the ring. After that it doesn't matter if you manage to reverse your opponent, you've already lost.

It’s kind of like Judo ne waza to me through the lens of bjj. Having such a short time on the ground I think forces you to be really quick with the submissions. No dilly dallying.

I did actually get to try a bit of sumo at a festival in Little Tokyo years ago. It was super fun and the actual sumo wrestlers dialed it back a bit for us newbies so we could get the hang of it without being overwhelmed.

I did okay thanks to a judo background though, interestingly, I did mostly stay in much deeper stances closer to what you find in classical jujutsu schools.

If there was a regular dojo by me I’d try to go like two or three times a month.

 

[Yamabushii]

Do I think the average ninja would subject themselves to that?

No. But that’s not exclusive to the x-kans. I think the majority of people who study kata based arts are not interested in pressure testing.

But there are some, like the OP, who are. My point is that there is already a methodology for it, and has been for quite some time.

Although in the specific case of Sumo, that’s probably pretty hard to find. Lots of other options these days though.

I agree with this completely, especially the part about those who study [primarily] kata-based arts. When my teacher left our former Japan-based Ninpo organization and we with him, in designing our new curriculum we made sparring mandatory for every single rank, but in different categories (e.g. striking, standing/seated grappling, throws, sword evasions, etc.). The quality of our students in our org now are far superior than the students produced when we were with our previous Ninpo org.

 

[Yamabushii]

Yeah but if we are talking about having some sort of link to traditional Japanese martial arts, samurai and all that goes with it. Sumo would probably be closer to the real thing than ninjitsu.

*Slightly edited because I misread a bit of what you said, but leaving most of my reply below intact.

I agree. The knowledge for ninjutsu is still preserved and passed on, but just be wary of people who are serious when they refer to themselves as "ninja" or "shinobi no mono" in today's world. Anyone still studying Ninpo today is a "Ninpo-ka", a student of Ninpo. But a lot of the knowledge can still be utilized in the modern day as Ninjutsu was primarily a set of strategies, not so much their own physical techniques as many people incorrectly believe. Ninja were Samurai, but not all Samurai were Ninja. From a modern sense though, in comparing Sumo, as it wasn't a battlefield art, it's still definitely closer to the real thing than any other Japanese martial art today.

 

[drop bear]

*Slightly edited because I misread a bit of what you said, but leaving most of my reply below intact.

I agree. The knowledge for ninjutsu is still preserved and passed on, but just be wary of people who are serious when they refer to themselves as "ninja" or "shinobi no mono" in today's world. Anyone still studying Ninpo today is a "Ninpo-ka", a student of Ninpo. But a lot of the knowledge can still be utilized in the modern day as Ninjutsu was primarily a set of strategies, not so much their own physical techniques as many people incorrectly believe. Ninja were Samurai, but not all Samurai were Ninja. From a modern sense though, in comparing Sumo, as it wasn't a battlefield art, it's still definitely closer to the real thing than any other Japanese martial art today.

The thing about non battle field arts is that soldiers still did them

 

[Yamabushii]

The thing about non battle field arts is that soldiers still did them

That's certainly true. You can't argue that at all.