Nightline story on MMA

[Steve]

I agree with alot of what you are saying except the bold items. MA is meant as a way to improve , not prove, ones self. It is meant to be a journey of self discovery. Not to show other people that I am better than you , I beat, you , I made you tap out. I personally coudl care less who won. Competition breeds ego, and ego is the cause of at least half of the problems in this world. When people start getting over themselves and seek to improve upon themselves and then in turn use that to help imrpove others , then maybe things will start to go right.

Tangent alert: Ego is not bad. Unchecked ego is bad. Competition is not bad. Unchecked competition is bad.

What I'm saying is that ego and competition represent our desire to improve and to measure ourselves. Ego represents a balance of our desires to succeed, to enjoy and to win at all costs (the id) and our sense of right and fair play (the super ego). Ego is critical, as long as our self image is in line with reality. It's only when reality and our ego are out of whack, when we get an inflated sense of self worth, that ego becomes a problem. And competition helps. It helps to bring our actual abilities in line with our perception of our abilities, gives us a measure.

In this way, I believe that martial arts (and activities in general) that include a competitive element are better for keeping the ego in check than activities in which there is no sense of competition. I've heard many traditional martial artists lament the unchecked egos rampant in some styles that don't have competitive aspects. I know that in BJJ, there is a lot of ego, but there is very little unchecked ego. People know what they can do and what they can't, who is really good and who needs work, and so there is actually far less posturing involved.

 

[bowser666]

Tangent alert: Ego is not bad. Unchecked ego is bad. Competition is not bad. Unchecked competition is bad.

What I'm saying is that ego and competition represent our desire to improve and to measure ourselves. Ego represents a balance of our desires to succeed, to enjoy and to win at all costs (the id) and our sense of right and fair play (the super ego). Ego is critical, as long as our self image is in line with reality. It's only when reality and our ego are out of whack, when we get an inflated sense of self worth, that ego becomes a problem. And competition helps. It helps to bring our actual abilities in line with our perception of our abilities, gives us a measure.

In this way, I believe that martial arts (and activities in general) that include a competitive element are better for keeping the ego in check than activities in which there is no sense of competition. I've heard many traditional martial artists lament the unchecked egos rampant in some styles that don't have competitive aspects. I know that in BJJ, there is a lot of ego, but there is very little unchecked ego. People know what they can do and what they can't, who is really good and who needs work, and so there is actually far less posturing involved.

Great reply ! I am just understanding why there is a need to flaunt what you know :" in your comfort zone, as opposed to being content with what you know. I can understand demonstrating for the purpose of a demo to interest new students and keep the art alive , unless maybe that is the point of competitions. Sorry if I am rambling , but I am always seeking to understand things beyond my scope and sometimes blurt crap out in the middle of a post. I guess I am confusing myself along the way. I had just always thought that a true MA-ist is supposed to be humble and not full of ego. Maybe I am wrong, but that is how I feel. I mean after all studying MA is for me and me only, not to tell next door neighbor , hey look at me and what I can do. Unless of course they have interest in it and want to learn.

 

[Steve]

Well I certainly apologize if somehow offended you , but isn't alot of competition ego related ? Especially in the modern day? In IMO thats all competitions are. That was my point. Yes it is prevalent in all MA , but much more in Sport Fighting ( Not just MMA ) because it is competition based. That is all I was saying. I do understand that alot MMA-ists are getting a bad rap for what is aired on TV , but what is aired on TV is fueling the rage for people to train in MMA now, and if it is marketed towards that specific audience you are going to find those "stereotypes" more and more prevalent as they are attracted to that type of Sport.

Saying you train is a lot easier than actually training. For every 10 guys who come in the door, maybe 1 or 2 stick with it to blue belt. And people with inflated egos are the first to go. It's easier to maintain an inflated sense of self worth in a vacuum. When you train, you are confronted daily with your own limitations. You either accept them and train anyway or let them defeat you. There is a sublime lack of pretense involved, and it's much easier to leave and tell war stories about it than to actually do it.

 

[bowser666]

Saying you train is a lot easier than actually training. For every 10 guys who come in the door, maybe 1 or 2 stick with it to blue belt. And people with inflated egos are the first to go. It's easier to maintain an inflated sense of self worth in a vacuum. When you train, you are confronted daily with your own limitations. You either accept them and train anyway or let them defeat you. There is a sublime lack of pretense involved, and it's much easier to leave and tell war stories about it than to actually do it.

I totally relate to that. I see my limitations everyday and it keeps me training hard. So that I can overcome them some day. It keeps me motivated.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Steve for your posts, full of good sense and calm argument!
I think it also depends on what you call 'ego', what I see is people with self confidence and self belief, people who are full of life and aplomb, others may see that as ego.
I don't think all competitors are ego driven though, I've been watching the Olypmics, our little island is lying third in the medal table with more golds than we've had for decades probably more like ten decades! Much of that was the result of old fashioned team work. Our girls won a silver and bronze in the marathon swimming by working together ( btw that event needs martial artists in it, it's violent!) The cyclists have been working as a team as have the sailors. There aren't millions in it for them, most of them will go back to work in their 'day' jobs after the Games are finished. The wrong people are likely to be drawn towards training MMA but as Steve has rightly said how long do you think they last? Not long trust me.
Last year we had a big show advertised in the press and on television , it caused outrage. People were saying how barbaric it was and there was going to be literally blood guts and eyeballs on the canvas to quote one reporter. Of course all the wrong people went, the hooligans went thinking it was going to be a bloodfest, the critics went so they could be shocked. What happened? People walked out because they were bored! It was a very good MMA show, the fighters were technically brilliant but no blood, guts or eyeballs, no deaths, just MMA. The papers next morning were full of how mundane it was compared to what they thought it was going to be.
MMA is technically involved, hard to do and require great dedication to training and fitness. Few take it up and last if they think it's going to be easy and just involves brawling.

 

[Makalakumu]

This really has nothing at all to do with what "style" is being taught. But more about what the person running the classes knows about coaching.

I'm sure there are some bad MMA coaches that should not be coaching kids. I'm also sure that there are also some really bad "Sensei", "Shifu", "Guru" and any other funky foreign words

But here is one thing to consider, most MMA instructors consider themselves "coaches", which means that when we go around looking for better ways to teach we are looking at coaching materials. Many traditional instructors (not all) consider themselves a"above that" and teach as if they have watched too many kung fu movies, with practices bordering abusive. Granted those instructors are not as prevelant as they once where, but a lot of the traditional styles came back with soldiers, who taught like drill sargents.

I would suspect any MMA coach that teaches kids would have spent some time going through material on youth sports, wrestling, etc.

So to say that MMA coaches are less suited for teaching kids I think is a missunderstanding. Especially in North America where wrestling, one of the key pieces in MMA and IMO the one that should get the most focus with kids, has a long history with youth and is offered in many schools because it is so well suited for kids.

Too true. You have to be discerning. Whether with a traditional art or MMA. My only beef with MMA is that its new and that its a rage. There are a lot of people rushing into this who have no clue what they are doing and I suspect the fastest growing species of McDojo is actually a MMA studio.

As time goes on, people will learn how to offer a quality product to all types of people. A product that is safe for children to practice. A product that has been tested and verified via some method other then anecdotal evidence.

Until then, I, as a parent would rather take my children to a good judo (or wrestling) school then a MMA club. Those places, at least, have organizational assurences that you can research and get a lot of background information if you so choose. This doesn't absolve anyone of the task of actually checking a place out personally, however.

 

[bowser666]

I guess my whole gripe is the competition aspect. I mean really who cares who is better than the next person. That is what it boils down to. Who is better and who wins.I am satisfied by setting my own goals and accomplishing tasks that I set for myself FOR myself and for no other. I guess you can say I have no ego whatsoever, checked or unchecked. I simply don't care if I am better than the next person. Just that I can take care of myself and my loved ones.

IMO to say that competing is improving ones self is a contradictory statement to me. You improve yourself only to beat that other person. It is still the same goal. Is there a reason people can't improve themselves without competing ? That is all I am trying to say. Some people just have to have that trophy or gold medal to justify all their hard work. I on the other hand do not require that.

 

[Steve]

I guess my whole gripe is the competition aspect. I mean really who cares who is better than the next person. That is what it boils down to. Who is better and who wins.I am satisfied by setting my own goals and accomplishing tasks that I set for myself FOR myself and for no other. I guess you can say I have no ego whatsoever, checked or unchecked. I simply don't care if I am better than the next person. Just that I can take care of myself and my loved ones.

IMO to say that competing is improving ones self is a contradictory statement to me. You improve yourself only to beat that other person. It is still the same goal. Is there a reason people can't improve themselves without competing ? That is all I am trying to say. Some people just have to have that trophy or gold medal to justify all their htard work. I on the other hand do not require that.

bowser, I don't think that your post has the tone you're looking for because, while you insist that you don't need to feel like you're better than anyone, you clearly feel superior to anyone who competes.

There are a number of good reasons to compete and the medal or trophy is only a part of it.

I really think you should go watch a grappling competition. Gi or not. Just check one out.

 

[Makalakumu]

As a judo and karate competitor who has been at the top of the heap, I can tell you that the dedication it takes to be the BEST is not something to be taken lightly. I came into my athleticism via the martial arts and, as a male, this has been very empowering for me. I do not suscribe to the emasculated philosophy that competition hurts people or children. If you know what its like to be a loser, then grow into being a winner, then you know what I'm talking about.

With that being said, I think that martial arts for children should have some competitive edge. I think that their should be some way to test their confidence. It's important.

I'm thinking of joining the kendo dojo down the road when my daughter turns eight. I think that it will present both of us with something different and it will push us both in new direction. Yeah, the kid will get whacked in the head with a stick, but I KNOW the equipment that I will buy will protect her.

Why?

Because generations of kids have been doing kendo and the organization that sanctions kendo keeps track of safety data and looks for the best way of protecting its practioners. This is why the bogu has changed so much over time.

With MMA you don't have this. You have a trend that I think is most appropriate for adults. As soon as I see, on paper, a developmental listing of what techniques are proper for children and what aren't, I'll buy.

 

[Tez3]

As I said before, I don't know whats going on on your side of the pond but I don't know of anywhere here that teaches children MMA. I've already said we teach children TSD, Judo and BJJ separately with the intention of combining it when they are older. I also don't see a problem though if people want to teach children MMA as long as it's done properly, it is after all only the martial arts they could do anywhere else.
MMA here is not done in 'schools', people are either in a club or a team. If schools are offering MMA then they are the TMA ones looking to cash in, the martial arts club I was at before my present one did that with kick boxing. The kick boxing and the karate people were in the same class, did the same things apart from the KB people didn't learn kata, oh and they paid an extra pound for their lesson as well as pay more for their gradings.
MMA clubs here don't attract children nor do they train them, people aren't bringing their children in demanded they be turned into fighters. Our childrens classes are just that, childrens classes, I've also explained the other reason we teach them more than one art.
Bowser, I'm afraid you are coming over as thinking you are superior, many people want to compete not just in MMA, if they didn't we wouldn't be glued to our TVs watching the Olympics. Many people even now feel being picked for their countries Olympic team is an honour.The Olympic ideal is one that many also seek to emulate. it's not for you, fine but don't denigrate people who hold that ideal.
Maunakumu, I'd love to be able to do Kendo but the drawback here is that it is so very expensive. Even secondhand the kit needed runs into hundreds of pounds!

 

[bowser666]

bowser, I don't think that your post has the tone you're looking for because, while you insist that you don't need to feel like you're better than anyone, you clearly feel superior to anyone who competes.

There are a number of good reasons to compete and the medal or trophy is only a part of it.

I really think you should go watch a grappling competition. Gi or not. Just check one out.

You and Tez are actually missing my point. I am not saying at all that I am superior. I just don't feel the need to prove myself by competing. No reading between the lines here guys. The truth is what I wrote. Please do not make the assumption ( wrong) that I , in anyway, am saying I am superior. I just don't subscribe to the theory that competition is necessary. It is easy to say that I am havign a superiority complex because I am going against what you are saying. That is not the case. So I guess we can just agree to disagree and not take it to a personal level were you are bringing it to. I am totally down to earth and don't look down on anyone. So please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Andrew Green]

You and Tez are actually missing my point. I am not saying at all that I am superior.

Umm, reading what you have written there is definately that vibe in there. Your claims are stated as fact, not opinion.

MA is meant as a way to improve , not prove, ones self. It is meant to be a journey of self discovery. Not to show other people that I am better than you , I beat, you , I made you tap out. I personally coudl care less who won. Competition breeds ego, and ego is the cause of at least half of the problems in this world. When people start getting over themselves and seek to improve upon themselves and then in turn use that to help imrpove others , then maybe things will start to go right.

How do you know what MA is meant for? Competition has always been a part of Martial arts, and has been for thousands of years. When the concept of Budo was formed in Japan it was largely around competition (Kendo, Judo and later Karate)

Challenge matches in China are quite famous.

Western martial arts have always been about competition (Boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc)

So where does this idea that martial arts are not about competition come from?

but isn't alot of competition ego related ?

Sometimes, but that's part of the person, not part of competition. There are some really big ego's floating around in people that are against competition as well, that even becomes part of it, "I'm too good for competition, I don't have to prove myself." or "My style is too deadly for competition."

Ego is not exclusive to being competitive, it's also in people believing that there way is better then everyone elses and anyone that disagrees is wrong.

I mean really who cares who is better than the next person. That is what it boils down to. Who is better and who wins.

Well, that is not what competition is always about. Often it is more about self-improvement and challenging yourself. Competing means putting yourself in a high stress environment with risks involved, and seeing how you react under that pressure. How do you deal with victory? Defeat?

I guess you can say I have no ego whatsoever, checked or unchecked.

Everyone has a ego, claiming to be "above" that could easily be interpreted as a sign of a person inflating their own.

Is there a reason people can't improve themselves without competing ? That is all I am trying to say. Some people just have to have that trophy or gold medal to justify all their hard work. I on the other hand do not require that.

We all compete, everyday. You want a new job? Well so did a bunch of other people that applied for the same one, you compete through your resume and your interview to get the job.

Do you want a promotion? So does the rest of your department. Buying a house? Might have to compete against other offers on it. Married or have a girlfriend? You probably had to compete for her to like you, as she did to get you after her.

And yes, we can improve ourselves through competition. Yes, it is something you can't get without competition. Competition is a part of life, and how we deal with competition is a part of who we are.

 

[bowser666]

Umm, reading what you have written there is definately that vibe in there. Your claims are stated as fact, not opinion.



How do you know what MA is meant for? Competition has always been a part of Martial arts, and has been for thousands of years. When the concept of Budo was formed in Japan it was largely around competition (Kendo, Judo and later Karate)

Challenge matches in China are quite famous.

Western martial arts have always been about competition (Boxing, wrestling, fencing, etc)

So where does this idea that martial arts are not about competition come from?



Sometimes, but that's part of the person, not part of competition. There are some really big ego's floating around in people that are against competition as well, that even becomes part of it, "I'm too good for competition, I don't have to prove myself." or "My style is too deadly for competition."

Ego is not exclusive to being competitive, it's also in people believing that there way is better then everyone elses and anyone that disagrees is wrong.



Well, that is not what competition is always about. Often it is more about self-improvement and challenging yourself. Competing means putting yourself in a high stress environment with risks involved, and seeing how you react under that pressure. How do you deal with victory? Defeat?



Everyone has a ego, claiming to be "above" that could easily be interpreted as a sign of a person inflating their own.




We all compete, everyday. You want a new job? Well so did a bunch of other people that applied for the same one, you compete through your resume and your interview to get the job.

Do you want a promotion? So does the rest of your department. Buying a house? Might have to compete against other offers on it. Married or have a girlfriend? You probably had to compete for her to like you, as she did to get you after her.

And yes, we can improve ourselves through competition. Yes, it is something you can't get without competition. Competition is a part of life, and how we deal with competition is a part of who we are.

Yet another person missing my point lol. I am saying what MA means to me. That's it ! I am done arguing about this. I have more to say but don't feel like getting lynched for stating my opinions. I thought we were all entitled to ours. I guess not...............

 

[Tez3]

If it's an opinion the sentence usually starts 'IMO', or people will say, 'personally I', 'for me' or 'I believe'. I don't think we've missed the point just taken at face value what was written. You didn't say these were your opinions you stated them as a fact and have got upset because we have disagreed with those facts as they are written. If you'd said that this was what you believed, we wouldn't have disagreed with you though would probably try to get you to change your mind through discussion.
You told us exactly what MAs were for, you didn't say it was your opinion, you stated it as a fact and yes people will disagree with that.
Originally Posted by bowser666
MA is meant as a way to improve , not prove, ones self. It is meant to be a journey of self discovery. Not to show other people that I am better than you , I beat, you , I made you tap out. I personally coudl care less who won. Competition breeds ego, and ego is the cause of at least half of the problems in this world. When people start getting over themselves and seek to improve upon themselves and then in turn use that to help imrpove others , then maybe things will start to go right.

 

[Steve]

You and Tez are actually missing my point. I am not saying at all that I am superior. I just don't feel the need to prove myself by competing. No reading between the lines here guys. The truth is what I wrote. Please do not make the assumption ( wrong) that I , in anyway, am saying I am superior. I just don't subscribe to the theory that competition is necessary. It is easy to say that I am havign a superiority complex because I am going against what you are saying. That is not the case. So I guess we can just agree to disagree and not take it to a personal level were you are bringing it to. I am totally down to earth and don't look down on anyone. So please don't put words in my mouth.

Bowser, as I said, I think you would really benefit from going to watch a BJJ tournament.

A few months ago, I wrote an article on my blog about competition. If you want to read the entire thing, feel free here. I bring it up because in that article I outline a few reasons why I think that competing is critical and why I try to enter at least 2 competitions each year, even though I personally hate competing:

1. Competing forces me to address my conditioning. I had three matches in February and was more gassed than I have ever been. The pace is higher, and the adrenaline and anxiety cause fatigue. I have to be in shape.
2. Competing forces me to address my diet. In competition, there are weight classes. While I walk around at 184 lbs and compete at around that same weight, I want to be healthy and have enough energy to get me through. Others drop weight, and there are good and bad ways to do that. Either way, competition forces my hand. I don't drink as much beer in the weeks leading to a competition. I try to eat less sugar and am just more mindful of my diet.
3. I learned more about myself in one day on the mats, and in watching my videos from those matches, than I had in the 3 months prior. I saw gaping holes in my game, areas that were exploited. Areas to improve.
4. I also saw things that I do well. Who knew?
5. I gained confidence in my training and my ability. BJJ is so hard on the ego. So much of our time is spent on the wrong side of a submission. So many reps before a technique works. So much time being stacked up, passed, choked or hyperextended. Add to this that as we get better, our classmates are also improving. That blue belt who kicks your butt will likely continue to do so. As you improve, he does as well. Granted, we all learn at different rates, but this phenomenon can obscure our own development. In a competition, you roll with people who don't know your game. The difference is like Night and Day.

Again, I think that if you went to a competition you would certainly see some unchecked ego, but you would see far, far more respect, humility and genuine affection that one competitor has for another who steps on the mats

 

[Twin Fist]

Steve,
you made some interesting points. As far as a grappling art like BJJ you may be right. I cant say wether you are or are not.

In my opinion, in a striking art, competition can actually be counter productive. In fact, I highly discourage my students from entering tourny's in anything other than the kata division.

 

[bowser666]

Bowser, as I said, I think you would really benefit from going to watch a BJJ tournament.

A few months ago, I wrote an article on my blog about competition. If you want to read the entire thing, feel free here. I bring it up because in that article I outline a few reasons why I think that competing is critical and why I try to enter at least 2 competitions each year, even though I personally hate competing:

1. Competing forces me to address my conditioning. I had three matches in February and was more gassed than I have ever been. The pace is higher, and the adrenaline and anxiety cause fatigue. I have to be in shape.
2. Competing forces me to address my diet. In competition, there are weight classes. While I walk around at 184 lbs and compete at around that same weight, I want to be healthy and have enough energy to get me through. Others drop weight, and there are good and bad ways to do that. Either way, competition forces my hand. I don't drink as much beer in the weeks leading to a competition. I try to eat less sugar and am just more mindful of my diet.
3. I learned more about myself in one day on the mats, and in watching my videos from those matches, than I had in the 3 months prior. I saw gaping holes in my game, areas that were exploited. Areas to improve.
4. I also saw things that I do well. Who knew?
5. I gained confidence in my training and my ability. BJJ is so hard on the ego. So much of our time is spent on the wrong side of a submission. So many reps before a technique works. So much time being stacked up, passed, choked or hyperextended. Add to this that as we get better, our classmates are also improving. That blue belt who kicks your butt will likely continue to do so. As you improve, he does as well. Granted, we all learn at different rates, but this phenomenon can obscure our own development. In a competition, you roll with people who don't know your game. The difference is like Night and Day.

Again, I think that if you went to a competition you would certainly see some unchecked ego, but you would see far, far more respect, humility and genuine affection that one competitor has for another who steps on the mats

I do apologize to all for not clearly stating that this was my opinion. I am in no means saying that I am above competition, simply, that being better than the next person or whatever is not one of MY priorities. I can see how competitions can be beneficial if it is for a persons journey towards self discovery. Just not a journey towards a trophy was all I meant. Oh yeah this is all IMO . I also apologize for going pretty far off the original topic of this thread. My apologies Twin.

 

[Steve]

I do apologize to all for not clearly stating that this was my opinion. I am in no means saying that I am above competition, simply, that being better than the next person or whatever is not one of MY priorities. I can see how competitions can be beneficial if it is for a persons journey towards self discovery. Just not a journey towards a trophy was all I meant. Oh yeah this is all IMO . I also apologize for going pretty far off the original topic of this thread. My apologies Twin.

No problem, Bowser. I'm just trying to ensure that your opinion is one that is informed and that you are at least aware that the situation is really much more complex than a desire to stock a trophy case. I would expect (and hope for) the same if I commented on your art, exposing some possible misunderstandings of my own about what you do and why you do it.

 

[bowser666]

No problem, Bowser. I'm just trying to ensure that your opinion is one that is informed and that you are at least aware that the situation is really much more complex than a desire to stock a trophy case. I would expect (and hope for) the same if I commented on your art, exposing some possible misunderstandings of my own about what you do and why you do it.

I am aware of those situations. I appreciate everyones insight and I really meant those things I said as more of a question for me to understand what the driving factors were behind people competing. Now you all have me wondering if I am doing it wrong because I don't have that Competitive drive in regards to MA.

 

[Steve]

I am aware of those situations. I appreciate everyones insight and I really meant those things I said as more of a question for me to understand what the driving factors were behind people competing. Now you all have me wondering if I am doing it wrong because I don't have that Competitive drive in regards to MA.

That you continue referring to "having that competitive drive" makes me think you still don't quite understand. You are touching on what in my mind are several distinct trains of thought.

First, there are people who enjoy competition and there are people who don't. That is an observation. Some people who train in any martial art will be competitive. Some won't. Whether it's Tai Chi or BJJ. A competitive person will find an outlet for his or her competitive spirit. It doesn't necessarily follow, however, that a competitive person is unable to enjoy an activity that doesn't have a competitive element. In other words, a person may play handball and study Tai Chi. Or he may be very competitive at work, and then enjoy the catharsis of a non-competitive martial arts hobby. Or vice versa, a guy frustrated by the non-competitive nature of their life in general may really enjoy the opportunity to test himself.

Of course, martial arts that enjoy a healthy competitive element, such as Judo, TKD, BJJ, or MMA will attract competitive people. It just stands to reason.

Distinct from that observation is a discussion about whether competition is useful in the study of martial arts. I'm not a particularly competitive person, but I do feel that competition is healthy and important. I've posted some of my reasons for this already. This is debatable, but in order to have a healthy debate, we all have to address our ignorance. This is largely why I continue to encourage you to spend a few bucks on admission as a spectator to a BJJ tournament. I'm sure you can find one locally and you can then see for yourself how everyone interacts and gain some personal insight into the nature of the competition.

A third distinct discussion has to do with whether there are motivations for competition beyond ego. Again, this is debatable. I believe that there are. I don't see any way for you to gain personal insight into this without training. Most BJJ/MMA schools offer a free lesson. While I don't think one lesson will do much, it might be worth your while to spend an afternoon at a school and get some personal experience. While the culture will likely be different, I know that most BJJ/MMA schools are mercifully free from jerks and overly inflated egos.

A fourth distinct line of thought that you touch on is whether martial arts training can be good without a competitive element. I think it can. But my belief is that competition done well and kept in perspective is a terrific means to control ego and introduce a reality check to students.

My point here is that as I see it, you're mushing together several good discussions. The problem is that we keep sliding through them all and as a result aren't able to reach a conclusion in any one of them. It confuses the issue and gives the impression that people are missing points.