How did you discover MMA?

[ralphmcpherson]

Have you ever seen someone successfully punch another person while launching the strike from the hip? No? Then why practice it?!!

Why dont you go and ask any of the many successful mma practitioners who have stuck around to a dan rank in one of these "uneffective" TMA's? You make it sound like all we do at TMA schools is stand around in a horse stance throwing punches to the air from the hip, but then after leaving after a few lessons that doesnt surprise me.

 

[Talon]

Why dont you go and ask any of the many successful mma practitioners who have stuck around to a dan rank in one of these "uneffective" TMA's? You make it sound like all we do at TMA schools is stand around in a horse stance throwing punches to the air from the hip, but then after leaving after a few lessons that doesnt surprise me.

Not that I am anything at all, but... I've been a police officer an armed bodyguard, nightclub security and a PSD contractor. I have witnessed hundreds of violent confrontations and been involved in at least a hundred myself (while working). None of that makes me an "expert" but it does give me some perspective.

In my line of work I need what is most effective. If you are happy in a traditional style then have at it man.

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll just figure that I hit a nerve.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Not that I am anything at all, but... I've been a police officer an armed bodyguard, nightclub security and a PSD contractor. I have witnessed hundreds of violent confrontations and been involved in at least a hundred myself (while working). None of that makes me an "expert" but it does give me some perspective.

In my line of work I need what is most effective. If you are happy in a traditional style then have at it man.

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll just figure that I hit a nerve.

I am glad you have found what is "most effective", as most, if not all, martial artists will tell you there is not a "most effective martial art". As Ive said before, I train with leo's who are more than equipped to do their job after practicing only TMA's. I live in the real world, everything is not black and white, its just not as simple as saying "mma guys know street effective fighting and can fully defend themselves but TMA guys cant win a fight against the average bar room brawler". Im sure there are TMA guys who cant fight, but Im also sure there are mma guys who cant. You should wander down to your local issin ryu club (since that style was your example) and suggest to a couple of the third dans that what they train is pointless and non effective. If you do, please video the result as it should be hillarious.

 

[Talon]

I am glad you have found what is "most effective", as most, if not all, martial artists will tell you there is not a "most effective martial art". As Ive said before, I train with leo's who are more than equipped to do their job after practicing only TMA's. I live in the real world, everything is not black and white, its just not as simple as saying "mma guys know street effective fighting and can fully defend themselves but TMA guys cant win a fight against the average bar room brawler". Im sure there are TMA guys who cant fight, but Im also sure there are mma guys who cant. You should wander down to your local issin ryu club (since that style was your example) and suggest to a couple of the third dans that what they train is pointless and non effective. If you do, please video the result as it should be hillarious.

I agree with almost everything...except...the Ishin ryu part. Now lets call a truce and just agree to disagree on certain things. Pissing contests are so unbecoming of Martial Artists.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I agree with almost everything...except...the Ishin ryu part. Now lets call a truce and just agree to disagree on certain things. Pissing contests are so unbecoming of Martial Artists.

I coulnt agree more.

 

[dancingalone]

Do you train for self defense or just for the heck of it? Have you ever been in a violent encounter? Have you ever seen a violent encounter? How did they go down? Do you punch from the hip? From a horse stance? I'm willing to learn. Just point me in the right direction.

This might sound like an excuse, but I really don't think you're ready to learn about traditional martial arts and how they can teach practical self-defense. Even if I explained everything I knew in simple English, your state of mind is such that I don't think you could open up and accept it. The questions you ask show that you're mentally in a place that is very closed off from any other teaching paradigm than the one you have currently selected, and you likely lack any common martial arts foundation with me that I could even use to breech the gulf because you reject fundamentals like horse stances and punching from the hips out of hand.

<shrugs> Good luck with your MMA training. Again, I am glad you found what you are looking for.

 

[Tez3]

Talon, all I can add to the other excellent posts is that perhaps you could have a look at what Iain Abernethy is doing, as well as Geoff Thompson. Kata is self defence. I'm thinking that this thing you have about horse riding stance comes from watching the film Karate Kid.
You could ask this guy, he's very approachable as is his instructor, Gavin. Neil has fought on UFC as well as Bellator. He still does TMA and still does very good kata.
http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/shodan-neil-grove.html

I should point out that although our profiles don't always say what we do a good many of us are also police officers, door staff etc etc. We don't sit at our keyboards chattering about stuff we know nothing about.

MMA is a sport, it's made up of different traditional martial arts so whether you like it or not you are still training that which you claim to despise!

Geoff Thompson I think may know even more about violent encounters than you claim to.
http://www.martialedge.net/articles/interviews-question-and-answers/geoff-thompson/



Enjoy MMA by all means but don't put the MMAers in a position where we look as if we are ignorant and can't appreciate what others do.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Makes you wonder why Bas Rutten stuck with kyukishin to 5th dan, after first obtaining 2nd dan in TKD. You'd think he'd have done something else with his time, if it is all a bunch of tree huggin' hippie crap

As for not hitting from horse stance... there are many reasons for learning stances / kamae. Usually you will only realize the benefit after you learned them. I wrote a short article about this topic on my blog. Noone is going to stand in horse stance waiting for an attack. But that doesn't mean it is useless.

EDIT:
read here for my initial observations about kamae.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/blog.php?b=85

 

[Talon]

Makes you wonder why Bas Rutten stuck with kyukishin to 5th dan, after first obtaining 2nd dan in TKD. You'd think he'd have done something else with his time, if it is all a bunch of tree huggin' hippie crap

As for not hitting from horse stance... there are many reasons for learning stances / kamae. Usually you will only realize the benefit after you learned them. I wrote a short article about this topic on my blog. Noone is going to stand in horse stance waiting for an attack. But that doesn't mean it is useless.

EDIT:
read here for my initial observations about kamae.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/blog.php?b=85

I have an old karate book by Mas Oyama before Kyokushin. But in this book he was talking about implementing contact sparring and what eventually became their almost full contact contests.

So Kyokushin is not TMA (founded in mid 60's) although it still has kata's, those are just left overs (that should be thrown out).

I would guess that Mr. Rutten stuck with it just for the contact sparring. As I have never seen him launch a punch from his hip or drop into a cat stance.

The only reason I advocate going the MMA route is that it allows you to train against resistance. And contrary to popular belief there is more boxing and wrestling in MMA than shotokan or hung gar.

I would also recommend boxing or wrestling on their own instead of a TMA school since they also have contact and resistance. But a school that combines boxing, wrestling, submission and teaches the muay thai round kick is preferable.

 

[Tez3]

Ah, a lost cause.

If we now sit and discuss kata etc we are straying from the OP, I suggest Talon posts up in the karate section a post titled 'why we should throw out kata'. it will be interesting reading.


'Contact' sparring is improved by being a good kata exponent, one reason why Bas Rutten stayed with karate, to become a good all round and polished fighter. Not all karateka do the points sparring many do the 'full on, black your eye, bruise you' type, Neil Grove btw did the 30 man kumite for his Dan grade.

What's annoying though here is I spend a lot of time telling TMA to open their minds, to look at MMA as we do, as a sport and an extension of TMA and along comes someone entirely dismissive of TMA yet knowing nothing about it. You give the opponents of MMA ammunition to use when knocking us, you display deep ignorance of martial arts and I wonder if that also entends to MMA? How many fights at pro level have you had? How many actual pro fighters have you trained with? who's your coach? Is he/she a pro fighter?
The fact that you know very little about karate means you can't actually judge how much there is in a fight,.


Well going back to the OP would be nice, I have a long night shift ahead of me on a very stormy night lol. On the good side I'm getting a new shift partner soon, can't wait, he's a Gurkha, it will make shifts interesting as no one will fight with them rofl!

 

[Talon]

Ah, a lost cause.

If we now sit and discuss kata etc we are straying from the OP, I suggest Talon posts up in the karate section a post titled 'why we should throw out kata'. it will be interesting reading.


'Contact' sparring is improved by being a good kata exponent, one reason why Bas Rutten stayed with karate, to become a good all round and polished fighter. Not all karateka do the points sparring many do the 'full on, black your eye, bruise you' type, Neil Grove btw did the 30 man kumite for his Dan grade.

What's annoying though here is I spend a lot of time telling TMA to open their minds, to look at MMA as we do, as a sport and an extension of TMA and along comes someone entirely dismissive of TMA yet knowing nothing about it. You give the opponents of MMA ammunition to use when knocking us, you display deep ignorance of martial arts and I wonder if that also entends to MMA? How many fights at pro level have you had? How many actual pro fighters have you trained with? who's your coach? Is he/she a pro fighter?
The fact that you know very little about karate means you can't actually judge how much there is in a fight,.


Well going back to the OP would be nice, I have a long night shift ahead of me on a very stormy night lol. On the good side I'm getting a new shift partner soon, can't wait, he's a Gurkha, it will make shifts interesting as no one will fight with them rofl!

Again, we will just agree to disagree. That's the best part of Martial Arts, you get out of it what you want. No one is right and no one is wrong.

Stay safe brother and please don't piss that Gurkha off!

 

[Tez3]

Again, we will just agree to disagree. That's the best part of Martial Arts, you get out of it what you want. No one is right and no one is wrong.

Stay safe brother and please don't piss that Gurkha off!

I never annoy Gurkhas they are good to work with and it's sister btw lol!

We can disagree I have no problem with that ( s many here will tell you lol) but I do have a problem when people disrespect others arts by making statements that are unfair through lack of knowledge. If you said that karate wasn't for you that would be fine but you've managed to say that all those that do karate are numpties who live in cloud cuckoo land where SD is concerned. I bang on constantly as again they will tell you here about the good things in MMA and how we are martial artists the same as they are, how MMA is TMA's but more than one in the same style and lastly how not all MMA people misunderstand karate etc and there you go making life difficult for me. TalK about taking three steps forward and two back!

I don't do woodwork, plumbing and all that do-it-yourself stuff but I'd never go into someone's toolbag and suggest they throw out tools because I thought they were useless on the basis of I don't know how to use them. Some of these tools look odd and I can't think what you'd use them for but in the right, knowledgable hands they are efficient and useful, it's the same with karate.

 

[Talon]

I never annoy Gurkhas they are good to work with and it's sister btw lol!

We can disagree I have no problem with that ( s many here will tell you lol) but I do have a problem when people disrespect others arts by making statements that are unfair through lack of knowledge. If you said that karate wasn't for you that would be fine but you've managed to say that all those that do karate are numpties who live in cloud cuckoo land where SD is concerned. I bang on constantly as again they will tell you here about the good things in MMA and how we are martial artists the same as they are, how MMA is TMA's but more than one in the same style and lastly how not all MMA people misunderstand karate etc and there you go making life difficult for me. TalK about taking three steps forward and two back!

I don't do woodwork, plumbing and all that do-it-yourself stuff but I'd never go into someone's toolbag and suggest they throw out tools because I thought they were useless on the basis of I don't know how to use them. Some of these tools look odd and I can't think what you'd use them for but in the right, knowledgable hands they are efficient and useful, it's the same with karate.

I agree! I'm kinda slow sometimes so enlighten me on the usefulness of the "cat stance". Then explain how launching punches from the hip is the way to go. Then let me know how wide, deep stances are good. Then show me the error of my ways by explaining how doing all of those things in a pre set pattern for years will in anyway transfer to a real life violent encounter. Yeah, that'll teach me a lesson!

 

[Tez3]

I agree! I'm kinda slow sometimes so enlighten me on the usefulness of the "cat stance". Then explain how launching punches from the hip is the way to go. Then let me know how wide, deep stances are good. Then show me the error of my ways by explaining how doing all of those things in a pre set pattern for years will in anyway transfer to a real life violent encounter. Yeah, that'll teach me a lesson!

Sigh.

It's been a long night and your mind is still as closed. Spend some time working your way through these.
http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/articles

From one of them
"A much better way to view this kata motion is as a shoulder-lock. You have secured a grip on the opponent's wrist, turned sideways and fed your other arm to the outside of the opponent's arm. This is the function of the first movement (Figure 3). The grip on the wrist is then released and the opponent's arm pushed down and away. At the same time the opponent's elbow is pulled in towards you. Your arm motion is exactly the same as the kata's second motion (Figure 4). This will lock the opponent's shoulder and from there they can easily be taken to the floor (Figure 5).

The application we just discussed is completely in line with the concepts of bunkai we've covered so far in this series. What is interesting though is that both the flawed "official application" and the more pragmatic one we've just examined are both considered as attacks to the arms. When the applications of kata stopped being widely taught (following the introduction to schools, and later the prevailing Japanese fashion of modifying martial arts to be sports and systems of physical exercises / character development), I wonder if a student asked what the first move was for and received the brief answer "it attacks joints of the arm". Because the principles of bunkai were not widely taught, and many of the "new wave" of karateka had no combative experience or understanding, it is possible that the function of the movement was misunderstood in the way that has now become so widespread."

does this work in a combat/selfdefence/street situation? Oh yes it certainly does. My instrcutor is a head doorman in one of our roughest cities, he is a karateka as well as MMA coach, he has sveral violent encounters a night to deal with so yes I can tell you karate works in and out of the ring/cage. What did you think karate was 'invented' for? so people could prance around amusing themselves? No it is a fighting and self defence system.

You don't have to like it, do it or enjoy it but do stop rubbishing it until you have a firm grasp on what it is we are doing. I often use things from kata Bunkai when sparring MMA and it works, I also find it useful in the 'street', I've learnt a lot from Iain and his research and applications, perhaps you could open your mind a little and see what he's got to say. Geoff Thompson does as do many SD experts.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thanks tez. It never ceases to amaze me when I hear people say "karate doesnt work". I mean, if it really didnt work wouldnt we have all come to that realisation a long time ago and karate clubs would no longer exist. The guy who trains our police here is a karateka, I should be petrified that all our police officers are walking around with no skills because all they know is karate. A bouncer I know who works at a very rough club only knows aikido, I should give him a call and warn him that the stuff he knows doesnt actually work. As you said- "What did you think karate was 'invented' for? so people could prance around amusing themselves? No it is a fighting and self defence system".Couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[Talon]

That move wouldn't work on a resisting opponent in a thousand years!

 

[Chris Parker]

I think I'm bored, so I'll have a go at this.

I agree! I'm kinda slow sometimes so enlighten me on the usefulness of the "cat stance". Then explain how launching punches from the hip is the way to go. Then let me know how wide, deep stances are good. Then show me the error of my ways by explaining how doing all of those things in a pre set pattern for years will in anyway transfer to a real life violent encounter. Yeah, that'll teach me a lesson!

Cat stance is used for a variety of reasons, including gaining an understanding and skill in shifting body weight for evasive action, as a set up for a lead-leg kick, a way to avoid a sweep, and more. If you missed this, go back to class.

Punching from the hip is done to generate power using the mechanics of Karate (body weight through transference with the hips), and it is trained so that you can generate the power source through smaller actions (not punching from the hips). But in order to generate the power from a smaller action, you need to generate it properly from a bigger (more "traditional" action) first. Otherwise you'll never get the power that Karate can offer. If you missed this, go back to class.

Wide stances teach stability, get proper foot position, allow for complete transference of body power through action, and condition the legs for strength and endurance. Once such aspects as these are internalised, the application of them is made more compact and "usable". If you missed this, go back to class.

The concept of a pre-set pattern of movements (kata) is not that "this is exactly how it'll go down", they are a teaching method designed to give you the strategies and tactics of the art in question in such a way that there is no aspect of "individual personality" getting in the way and corrupting the approach from the proven methods. By training it properly (repeated methods with accurate visualisations of the applications and attacks they are designed against) you are "teaching" your unconscious that this skill is powerful, and useful, meaning that when needed, it is there for you to use. It is not trained in a vacuum, and is not the only method used. If you think it is.... you know what? If you class your art as "Real world", and post the way you have been here, I don't think you have the first clue about martial arts at all. I don't think you'd get much out of them, as you have no idea what they are, how they work, what they do, why they do it, and so on. Bear in mind that I am not saying anything about fighting or violence here, just martial arts. And you seem to be making the classic mistake of thinking the two are the same thing.

That move wouldn't work on a resisting opponent in a thousand years!

Really, it has worked on resisting opponents for a thousand years, actually... it's a standard movement in many Japanese systems (known as Oni Kudaki in my arts, also found in Aikido, and many other arts), and is found in wrestling as well as many other forms (I think you were advising wrestling at one point, yes?). There are forms of it in BJJ, and MMA. So, uh, wanna re-think that last statement?

 

[Tez3]

That move wouldn't work on a resisting opponent in a thousand years!

I think your loss is karate's gain to be honest.

I daresay kata wouldn't be needed now if karate was being 'invented' as we have video, books, You Tube etc to pass techniques on and to help remember techniques but despite that it's still the best way to carry your armoury around as you have practiced the SD techniques and have the muscle memory of them. I think it's pointless to explain any more and in any more depth about kata and Bunkai, those of us who get it know and those with minds so tightly closely will not want to get it.

I will pass on to Iain the learned Talon's comments and when he's stopped laughing I expect he'll make some pithy comment. Those of us who have borne the bruises from resisting him will just smile knowingly.

Chris, good post, shame England beat you at rugby but how nice to see both teams with the poppy on their sleeves. I know how much the Anzacs have sacrificed in the wars and how appreciated it is.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think your loss is karate's gain to be honest.

I daresay kata wouldn't be needed now if karate was being 'invented' as we have video, books, You Tube etc to pass techniques on and to help remember techniques but despite that it's still the best way to carry your armoury around as you have practiced the SD techniques and have the muscle memory of them. I think it's pointless to explain any more and in any more depth about kata and Bunkai, those of us who get it know and those with minds so tightly closely will not want to get it.

I will pass on to Iain the learned Talon's comments and when he's stopped laughing I expect he'll make some pithy comment. Those of us who have borne the bruises from resisting him will just smile knowingly.

Chris, good post, shame England beat you at rugby but how nice to see both teams with the poppy on their sleeves. I know how much the Anzacs have sacrificed in the wars and how appreciated it is.

Dont worry tez, the ashes are about to start and Im hoping to get along for a day or two of the first test. Hopefully that makes up for the rugby result

 

[Tez3]

Dont worry tez, the ashes are about to start and Im hoping to get along for a day or two of the first test. Hopefully that makes up for the rugby result

Don't remind me, my other half is getting exited already lol. Hopefully though it will be all about the game, the Test England had not long ago was marred by all the accusations of the Pakistanis match rigging ie losing for the betting.

Cricket is again one of those things that when you first look at it seems complicated and pointless but once you learn to play it becomes a great thing. If only people would try things with an open mind they might be surprised at what they find!