discussion of philosophy

[qi-tah]

I ended up almost doing a technique out of one of the Shotokan forms I know. The whole purpose is to do one of two things. 1) Do the whole, grab and gerk on the tescitcle area, or 2) pull his voice box out and show it to him. I'd have done that second one. I stopped myself before I did though. Then he puts me into a blood choke, I could have gotten out of. But I decided if I just tap out, he'll get off me and leave me alone.
My mom comes out just in time to see me tap. Adam starts jumping around like a monkey and gloating, and my first thought is "I should have torn his bicep". He leaves and I walk over to my mom, lean in and say "the only reason he won was because I didn't want to kill him".

What do you think, should I have just hurt him, or did I do the right thing? Maybe I should post this in the horror stories section...

He sounds like a absoloute tool... and he is yr family? My condolences. If it had been me and i had the chance to make the gonad shot, i would have taken it. After all, you don't have to tear the whole thing off to make him feel rather ill...

Tho the whole family connection thing would be hard - after all, you have to live with him afterwards. I can see the reasoning behind disengaging so that you don't have to suffer more irritating challenges like this.

I was always taught the "bum bump", turn and elbow technique for getting out of bear hugs from behind... that's generally pretty non-lethal. What you follow it up with tho, is up to you...

 

[CuongNhuka]

He sounds like a absoloute tool... and he is yr family? My condolences. If it had been me and i had the chance to make the gonad shot, i would have taken it. After all, you don't have to tear the whole thing off to make him feel rather ill...

Tho the whole family connection thing would be hard - after all, you have to live with him afterwards. I can see the reasoning behind disengaging so that you don't have to suffer more irritating challenges like this.

I was always taught the "bum bump", turn and elbow technique for getting out of bear hugs from behind... that's generally pretty non-lethal. What you follow it up with tho, is up to you...

NO I wasn't going to do the gonad shot. I was going to do the "rip his throut out and show it to him". And he's my more or less brother in law (he and my sis have been dating for 6 years, he's saving his money to buy a house, otherwise he'd have probably already proposed).
The only reason I didn't hit him at all, was I wanted to keep this a grappling match. I hit him, he'll have all kinds of problems to worry about.

 

[Tez3]

This guy sounds a pain in the ****! Doesn't sound as if he has any respect for anyone really. Oh I'd love to get my hands on him lol! Give him our website address instead, there's pics of my instructor on there that are actually quite scary and he's not even doing much, one he's sitting at his desk and looks fierce lol!
My instructor and fellow promoter Mick started Micheal Bisping off on our shows so that may encourage him to come across lol. If he spends the money he was saving for a house on coming acrosss it may save you all a lot of future grief! You never know it could change him for the better! We could send him back older and wiser! He could also contact Skip Hall ( or you could!) who is American, trains in Alabama, very hard tough man who is also one of the nicest I know. He's a judge on UFC as well as a fighter. He's on the 'friends' bit of our website.

www.shotaikai.co.uk

 

[MJS]

To bring this question back up, my brother in law is at it agian. As an update, he has now had two mock "MMA" tournaments on our yard (we know, thankfully they have stopped). Now, after these fights he ended up "teaching" some of the other "fighters". He has also asked me if I have a copy of The Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I don't so he's going to buy his own. These two facts combined makes me fear he might try to start his own "martial art school". Granted, I think he might already.
Now the question, if he opens his own "school" what do you think I should do? Or, if he starts to get ready to do that? Should I sick one of the actual MMAist in my area at him? If he opens his own "school", God only knows what might happen, but I doubt it will be any thing good.

It sounds like you've made a few attempts to talk him out of this. Unfortunately, he isn't listening. I'm sure it'll only be a matter of time before he or someone working with him, gets seriously hurt.

IMO, rather than learn from a book and hold 'events' in the backyard, he should invest his time into some real training at a real school.

 

[CuongNhuka]

This guy sounds a pain in the ****! Doesn't sound as if he has any respect for anyone really. Oh I'd love to get my hands on him lol! Give him our website address instead, there's pics of my instructor on there that are actually quite scary and he's not even doing much, one he's sitting at his desk and looks fierce lol!
My instructor and fellow promoter Mick started Micheal Bisping off on our shows so that may encourage him to come across lol. If he spends the money he was saving for a house on coming acrosss it may save you all a lot of future grief! You never know it could change him for the better! We could send him back older and wiser! He could also contact Skip Hall ( or you could!) who is American, trains in Alabama, very hard tough man who is also one of the nicest I know. He's a judge on UFC as well as a fighter. He's on the 'friends' bit of our website.

www.shotaikai.co.uk

He is a pain in the you know what. I think it's more, he has no respect for me. He has out and said that MMA is better then Traditional Arts, and I am weaker then him (he has a better 2 mile and is a better weight lifter, but thats about it really). If you want to fly out and beat on him, please be my guest (we have a spare room in our house if you dont want to go to a hotel

).
If I send him off to an actual MMA school, it may get worse cause then he could actualy CHOKE me. If nothing else, I am going to save your schools website to my favs. and put your email in my buddy list incase I deside to sick you on him (

).

MJS, like I said to Tez, I'm afriad sending him to an MMA school in my area might make him worse. Most of the instructors in my area (Mixed, "Traditional", or Sport) have the mentality that what they do is superior to everything else. There are some good schools in area of course. My Sensei even has some fliers from the better MMA schools so that if someone were to come to our school seeking MMA, he can give them the flier and send them off to them.

 

[MJS]

MJS, like I said to Tez, I'm afriad sending him to an MMA school in my area might make him worse. Most of the instructors in my area (Mixed, "Traditional", or Sport) have the mentality that what they do is superior to everything else. There are some good schools in area of course. My Sensei even has some fliers from the better MMA schools so that if someone were to come to our school seeking MMA, he can give them the flier and send them off to them.

Well, its too bad that people can't see the value in everything. I mean, there is alot that can be learned and applied from every art. However, what some fail to realize, is that nothing out there is going to make us Supermen. Everything has its strong and weak points.

Good luck with this.

Mike

 

[CuongNhuka]

Well, its too bad that people can't see the value in everything. I mean, there is alot that can be learned and applied from every art. However, what some fail to realize, is that nothing out there is going to make us Supermen. Everything has its strong and weak points.

Good luck with this.

Mike

I know that very well myself. It's really just the morons who think that what they do makes them invincable. Course, I'm still trying to figure out how he knows what pressure points are.

 

[exile]

there's pics of my instructor on there that are actually quite scary and he's not even doing much, one he's sitting at his desk and looks fierce lol! www.shotaikai.co.uk

That guy???Whoa, he is scary-looking... the scowl alone would stop any rational thug from getting near him... I'm sure he's a gentleman, but he doesn't look especially gentle...

Well, its too bad that people can't see the value in everything. I mean, there is alot that can be learned and applied from every art. However, what some fail to realize, is that nothing out there is going to make us Supermen. Everything has its strong and weak points.

Good luck with this.

Mike

I've looked over the thread a bit... and I have to say, it sounds to me as if the best thing to do is `real life Aikido': be somewhere else when he shows up. This guy, as Mike says, can't understand the whole complex MA world, the relationship between technique set and live training, or anything else. I get the impression that he has room for exactly one thought in his head at a time, the all-time, all-situation superiority of MMA has taken up residence in there, and trying to get anything else in is a hopeless case. You can't win this one, CN (though the fact is, he's the big loser in the end). Keeping away from him is really your only option, if you want to keep from going out of your mind.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I've looked over the thread a bit... and I have to say, it sounds to me as if the best thing to do is `real life Aikido': be somewhere else when he shows up. This guy, as Mike says, can't understand the whole complex MA world, the relationship between technique set and live training, or anything else. I get the impression that he has room for exactly one thought in his head at a time, the all-time, all-situation superiority of MMA has taken up residence in there, and trying to get anything else in is a hopeless case. You can't win this one, CN (though the fact is, he's the big loser in the end). Keeping away from him is really your only option, if you want to keep from going out of your mind.

Yah I do avoid him as much as possible. It's really just when I cann't avoid it that I get into these idiotic situations. I'm thinking next time I'll just stomp his foot. He has an ingrown toe nail, so that'll work!

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings - it does not make sense to compare the Mind and Heart
of those who participate in a sport and those who fight to live.
In what you call TMA we train not to fight, in the sport you call
MMA they train to fight, In TMA we are taught to kill,
in MMA you are taught to not kill. In TMA we are taught
to not meet strength with strength, size and strength do not matter,
in MMA you have weight classes and are divided by gender which
make the matches fair. There is no fair or unfair in TMA,
because fairness does not matter in matters of life and death .

MMA and TMA can not be compared unless you turn one into
the other. If you wish to try to compete in a sport using
a sport version of a TMA , Like Judo, Sport karate, BJJ
then you can Not say you are comparing a TMA against a
MMA, , for you have just made one into the other.

If a TMA and MMA were to fight it would not be in a ring,
it would not be for Ego or money, and the outcome
might very well be death, for one or both combatants.

Is it worth it to any TMA alive to kill someone to simply
make a point, I certainly hope not.
When speaking of life and death does fair matter,
dead is dead, regardless if we stepped into the ring
or were killed in the tunnel walking to the ring

The difference in sport and martial art is in sport
we wish to fight a opponent , to match skills,
strength and conditioning , to best the other man
and prove our self to be champion,

When dealing with the violence of life and death,
the combatants do not want to fight,
for the untrained vs the TMA , the assailant wants to
bludgeon , pound, cut, stab, and or kill the TMA,
The TMA wishes to avoid this, neither actually wishes
to fight, One in a rage , or fueled by emotion and ego
wishes to harm the other, the TMA with a clearer mind
wishes to survive and go home. The violence level of
the assailant determines the violence level of the TMA,
neither really wishes to fight, one wishes violence on
the other , not onto their selves.

The only thing worth killings for is your life or the
life of the innocent, it this line is crossed then,

“The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a
falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim. “
Art of War chapter 5.

How can MMA and TMA be compared ?
IMO they can not, and we as TMA should
not give this argument validity by participating In it ,
with those who do not REALLY understand this.

You have less chance of being injured in a MMA
match then a boxing match . Boxing is more
dangerous . In a real world confrontation
your chances of real injury , ( broke bones,
cuts, concussion , and death ) are not
only possible they are likely.

How do you compare these, and say MMA is
more real or more true, or more anything
but , what it is , a better test of skills
between evenly matched contestants in
a venue where they are prevented from
actually hurting each other .

It that is what you want to compete in fine,
that is what sports are for, and they should be
enjoyed for what they are . As competitors
of course they want to challenge TMA,
that is what they do, ,they have a need to
prove their self In this manner , there are
other ways, and as a TMA we need not
be baited into participating in something our
art was not designed for, and diminishing
our art and selves to participation in a sport,
with no point but self gratification and ego .

romney ^..^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Old thread resurected. Philosphy in martial arts is a different discussion than the effectiveness of MMA vs. TMA.

Regarding the OP, entering an unsanctioned event with little to no training is foolish, be it TMA or MMA.

As to the relevence of philosophy in the martial arts, it depends on the individual. Some people get their philosphy outside of martial arts and already have a philosophical framwork in which to fit their martial training. Others want the full cultural experience.

Neither is wrong.

Daniel

 

[wolfeyes2323]

it is the philosophy of TMA not to fight
it is the Philosophy of MMA to fight.
If you wish to fight the MMA philosophy is better,
if you wish to survive the TMA philosophy is better

These two philosophies will never meet in a ring,
and should never meet on the street,
One must become the other, in the appropriate setting.
neither is better , and both are necessary

Many believe that one Philosophy can apply in both venues
and we have a choice, it can not and we do not.


Romney^..^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

MMA is about competition. While I have great respect for the abilities of the athletes, what they do is not fighting in the true sense of the word. MMA has no philosophy; it is a sport.

Thus MMA cannot be superior to TMA, nor the reverse, as the two are different entities with that happen to have overlap.

Philosophy within TMA is another subject, as not all traditional martial arts share the same philosophy.

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

it is the philosophy of TMA not to fight
it is the Philosophy of MMA to fight.
If you wish to fight the MMA philosophy is better,
if you wish to survive the TMA philosophy is better

These two philosophies will never meet in a ring,
and should never meet on the street,
One must become the other, in the appropriate setting.
neither is better , and both are necessary

Many believe that one Philosophy can apply in both venues
and we have a choice, it can not and we do not.


Romney^..^

TMA's and MMA's themselves both have the same philosophy: we do not wish to fight, but we train to do so just in case.

The martial artists themselves have their own philophy as to whether they want to fight or not.

Sport MMA concentrates on competition fighting, but this is different than condoning actual fighting. This is no different than someone in a TMA going out to compete in a full contact tournement.

Many believe that one Philosophy can apply in both venues
and we have a choice, it can not and we do not.

I would actually like to hear your explanation of this statement....

 

[blindsage]

I'd like to hear an update from CN as to what has happened with his brother-in-law since the original postings.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The question is (know that I get to it) was this discussion even half way valid.

Well, it was an informal discussion, so sure. I'd have to hear the context of how philosophy came up to really say one way or the other.

Ignore the fact that my brother in law has no training what so ever, out side what the Army Guard taught him.

Not the best preparation for entering an MMA event. How did he do?

The question is really, does the philosophy matter. Could MMA be more effective then TMA. And please don't give me this crap about how "my style is the best, everything else is irrelevent". I mostly want to see how the same discussion would play out in the hands of people who could say from experience, or there own knowledge.

MMA is pretty much an athletic event at this point. When someone says MMA, they mean a ruleset, such as that of the UFC. So really, MMA and TMA are not comparable.

All of the techniques used in MMA are from some traditional martial art. MMA, however, requires a mix of techniques that are favorable to a ring fighting environment, which aren't always the same techniques that are favorable to a real fight or SD situation.

Also, I seriously doubt that a competative athlete would respond identically on the street as they do in the ring. Most competative MMA fighters have a background or currently train in a core TMA.

Obviously, having more tools to use can be helpful, but what makes your tools useful is the way that you train, not some distinction between MMA or TMA. Train hard and realistically against resisting opponents and your techniques will be effective no matter where you use them.

As for philosophy mattering, it matters to the extent that every school has a training philosphy, be it a codified set of tenets or the instructor's unspoken code.

Some people specifically want to have the class taught with a philosophical bent. Others get their philosophy outside of the dojang and just want a technical class. Neither approach is wrong.

Hope that helps. How did things turn out?

Daniel

 

[CuongNhuka]

I'd like to hear an update from CN as to what has happened with his brother-in-law since the original postings.

Nothing really. I cann't really remember much since the orginal post.

And, Mr. Sullivan, he was training some other idiot who was in like 7 fights at a local fight club (most are in one or two). His first 2 were draws and I think after that it's a mixed record.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Glad to hear that he wasn't badly hurt.

Daniel

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Matters of life and death should not be met with the mindset of competition.
Competitors can not enter the ring with killing intent .

The mind and intent determine the outcome,
(what is the intent of your MMA training )
in matters of life and death a competition mindset is inadequate
in competition a life and death mindset is murder.

In a violent confrontation, your opponent does not wish to
fight you, they want to see you suffer and die, they
have no such wishes for their selves.

In sport confrontation, your opponent wishes to
match skills and strength against you and prove
himself more skilled or stronger

If these two mind sets meet they are not reconcilable,
the adage is
"use karate , dig two graves".

Violence begets Violence , use it today , and you will
use it tomorrow, it will soon speak for you in a voice
louder then the voice of your heart.

this is not true of sport,
I can decide to fight or to not fight , I can fight
when I am ready , and not at the convenience of
others , I can choose to never fight again ,
I can retire to peace, I can even befriend those
I have contested with, I can shake their hand
and hug them, regardless if I won or lost.

If you use violence against someone you have made
a enemy for life, you must watch your back forever,
you can not choose when you will meet again,
nor the circumstances under which you will meet,
if you defeated them the first time , they will come
back with help or armed, or by surprise , they will
hunt you down and try to make you suffer, they will
try to extract retribution regardless of apologies or
gestures of good will , they will see you dead if they can,
they may also attack your family , your friends
your business , your property.

Using violence starts a chain reaction the leads to more
violence and death, it is why FIGHTING should be avoided
at ALMOST any cost, short of preservation of life or
protecting the innocent . Using violence we sacrifice
a part of our selves, and our life will never be the same.
for those who use violence , NOTHING GOOD comes from it,
it is a sacrifice of our self that can be made for others.
(This is the intent of TMA , to prepare us to make this
sacrifice and live with the consequnces).

In sport this is not true, people compete with honor,
they abide by rules, and when it is over, unless you agree
to enter the ring again , it is over, they are not going to hunt
you down not going to hurt your family or friends etc.
You can make money, become famous , and make a living
sport fighting.

If the sport fighter meets violent offender, they may win
the first encountered, but there will be future repercussion
for which they may not be prepared, and the violence will
escalate.

It is a-moral to engage in violence for money or profit,
it is however honorable to make a living sport fighting.

these two things are total opposites.

TMA train to NOT fight, Not fighting could including killing your opponent
unexpectedly, and suffering the consequnces for life.

MMA , train to meet and fight with a opponent, to defeat him and move on.

Nice thought , but , not reality.

Romney^..^

 

[BrandonLucas]

Matters of life and death should not be met with the mindset of competition.
Competitors can not enter the ring with killing intent .

The mind and intent determine the outcome,
(what is the intent of your MMA training )
in matters of life and death a competition mindset is inadequate
in competition a life and death mindset is murder.

In a violent confrontation, your opponent does not wish to
fight you, they want to see you suffer and die, they
have no such wishes for their selves.

In sport confrontation, your opponent wishes to
match skills and strength against you and prove
himself more skilled or stronger

If these two mind sets meet they are not reconcilable,
the adage is
"use karate , dig two graves".

Violence begets Violence , use it today , and you will
use it tomorrow, it will soon speak for you in a voice
louder then the voice of your heart.

this is not true of sport,
I can decide to fight or to not fight , I can fight
when I am ready , and not at the convenience of
others , I can choose to never fight again ,
I can retire to peace, I can even befriend those
I have contested with, I can shake their hand
and hug them, regardless if I won or lost.

If you use violence against someone you have made
a enemy for life, you must watch your back forever,
you can not choose when you will meet again,
nor the circumstances under which you will meet,
if you defeated them the first time , they will come
back with help or armed, or by surprise , they will
hunt you down and try to make you suffer, they will
try to extract retribution regardless of apologies or
gestures of good will , they will see you dead if they can,
they may also attack your family , your friends
your business , your property.

Using violence starts a chain reaction the leads to more
violence and death, it is why FIGHTING should be avoided
at ALMOST any cost, short of preservation of life or
protecting the innocent . Using violence we sacrifice
a part of our selves, and our life will never be the same.
for those who use violence , NOTHING GOOD comes from it,
it is a sacrifice of our self that can be made for others.
(This is the intent of TMA , to prepare us to make this
sacrifice and live with the consequnces).

In sport this is not true, people compete with honor,
they abide by rules, and when it is over, unless you agree
to enter the ring again , it is over, they are not going to hunt
you down not going to hurt your family or friends etc.
You can make money, become famous , and make a living
sport fighting.

If the sport fighter meets violent offender, they may win
the first encountered, but there will be future repercussion
for which they may not be prepared, and the violence will
escalate.

It is a-moral to engage in violence for money or profit,
it is however honorable to make a living sport fighting.

these two things are total opposites.

TMA train to NOT fight, Not fighting could including killing your opponent
unexpectedly, and suffering the consequnces for life.

MMA , train to meet and fight with a opponent, to defeat him and move on.

Nice thought , but , not reality.

Romney^..^

I'm not sure what type of MA you're active in, or if you're active at all...but let me ask you this:

Do you spar in class? Do you, when sparring your opponent, attempt to kill them in the same manner in which you would kill an opponent in a life and death sitation? Do you use sparring as an effective tool with which to learn how to deal with a resisting opponent in a "realtime" situation?

If you don't at least spar, then you have no basis for any of the arguments you present here. The reason I say that is because you would not know how to react against a resisting opponent if you don't practice it. You can't just simply learn a form and punch a heavy bag your whole life and call yourself prepared to deal with a real opponent.

And if you do spar, and I hope you do, then there is no difference in the philosophy behind sparring in class and sparring for competition. Both can be used for a learning experience. Both can be seen as a competition as far as who is the better fighter. But, by simply sparring someone else, you are entering into a competition. Like it or not.

Now, if you spar, but you conciously try to kill, maim, or otherwise injur your opponent and honestly mean them ill will...that's not sparring..that's actually fighting, and you would be no better off than the MMA competitors that you're referring to.

I have a sparring class once a week. We have as much contact as we can without it getting too out of hand, so that we know what to expect if we were to have to use what we're learning. I have 100% confidence that I can take care of myself and/or my family in a real SD situation, because I spar on a regular basis.

I have seen TMAists who have passed unexpectedly and unfortunately in the same manner as MMAists have. It happens. They're called accidents...it's no different than walking out of your front door and getting blasted by a car you didn't see coming. Can you prevent that? Sure, just don't leave your house.

Think outside the box, man. Stop trying to write in prose and actually think about what you're typing.