New, Improved, Never Before Seen...Why People Create Their "Own" Art?

[punisher73]

Why argue about it now, you are in essence arguing the creation of ALL martial arts styles. There are only 88 keys on a piano, but I would strongly suggest that there are MANY more songs to write using them.

All a style is, in reality a set of strategies, tactics and technqiues that all combine to support the overall approach to combat. Since EVERYONE on this planet has a slightly different psychological make up and physical make up you are going to have many different approaches to combat.

The only true test for a style is, how long it has been passed down. Someone mentioned Isshin-Ryu and Tatsuo, even today on Okinawa it is considered a substyle of Shorin-Ryu. What about TKD? It's history is from japanese karate (shotokan). Also, many older okinawan katas are found to be older forms already found on okinawa and not something brought back from China as the founder claimed.

So again, you have SOMEONE creating SOMETHING that is their own unique approach and putting a name to it. It has always been done this way and it will continue to happen this way.

 

[kidswarrior]

New, Improved, Never Before Seen...

Yeah, I've seen things packaged, promoted and sold in this Rah Rah format. The product is usually accompanied by bells, whistles and flashing lights, intended to distract the focus from the unvarnished reality.

But I've also seen the truth in this view:

...it is probably more honest to call what you're doing by a new name if it differs in any substantive way from the style you were taught.

The first perhaps connotes walking on ones teachers in order to get ahead, the second standing on their shoulders. Lumping them together because the nominal result of both is a 'new art' or a new name, seems to me superficial.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Lumping them together because the nominal result of both is a 'new art' or a new name, seems to me superficial.

I agree. Most places that lump it together and call it a new art generally have multiple curriculum sets: the base art + the this + the that, all of which are taught separately, either in different parts of the same class or introduced as a reward for having hit a certain belt level. Rarely is a combination of multiple arts well integrated into a synergistic whole.

Daniel

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I've been hearing that word "obsolete" most all my life--and they still dig holes with shovels.

 

[shihansmurf]

I've been hearing that word "obsolete" most all my life--and they still dig holes with shovels.

Digging holes with shovels is hard work.

Always better to use a new and improved, high speed, labor saving device to get the job done in a faster and "better" way.

For example, in the Army, we now do a lot of paper work and such in a digital format. We can, thanks to smartcard technology, even "sign" our names to forms. Now to submit a DA 31, request for leave, a process that took only about three pages and about three signatures, now thanks to the ease of the process has added an stunning number of steps. Since everything is online, now there are Army-wide risk assessments to be filled out, most duty stations have some sort of leave and risk assessment packet that is local to the command as well, vehicle inspection sheets, and Mapquest directions, and a copy of your leave and earning statement. While I am of the growing opinion that all of this is an active plot to discourage us from taking leave, and I am too stubborn to be defeated in this nefarious ploy, life was much simpler when going on leave consisted of just filling out a DA-31 and showing an LES. Sometimes there is quite a bit to be said for an obsolete idea.

The martial arts are much the same. I have yet to be shown a movement that is more effective and reliable in a fight than a jab/cross combo. Now I'll be the first to admit that there are folks around that have been doing this a lot longer than me, but 25 years is a fair bit of experience, so when I say that I find it unlikely that I will ever be shown a more usefull movement I'm pretty confident in the truth of that statement. I'm sure that other people have moves that they have internalized to the same degree from their arts, and can make that same statement about. I don't think I would be too impressed with the notion that a jab/cross hab become "obsolete". It does take a lot of work to get good at using it, though and maybe that is the problem with a lot of these new "Masters".

Really, though, I for one am not that bother by it. Aside from my students, or any place that I would work out, I am not concerned with what other perple tie around their waist, or call their style of martial arts. Given that I view a martial art style as nothing more than a teaching model to impart a skillset. I could care less if Billy Joe Jim Bob, the Exalted Super Guru of Chop Saki Do proclaims himself to be a 26th degree mauve belt, and teaches his hand picked students the progressive and modern art of Tire Iron Deuling in the Bed of Monster Trucks as long as he and his students are happy with their arrangement and they keep themselves away from me. What others do in their schools is of no concern to me. No skin off my back.

In any event, we all are involved in the creation of our own martial art as other have pointed out in the thread. Assumng that you pass on your "lessons learned" to your students in the form of altering your system, at what point are you no longer teaching the base art? I teach shotokan. I throwing more than a bit of kenpo. My students learn as much about boxing as I can possibly impart to them. They also get a lot of JKD concepts. Now their front stance isn't performed as deep as in most JKA schools. We do Kata but focus on bunkai over the aesthetics. I don't care if its really pretty, I care if they can use the applications. We don't do gohan kumite or sambon kumite. We jump right in at one step and even that ends in the yellow belt levels in favor of free sparring of increasing contact. I also teach some kata outside the standard shotokan syllabus. My students learn a lot of throwing and locking material that I was taught when I traded lessons from a Danzen Ryu buddy. It seemed to be a good fit and was usefull so I teach it.

Now the question.

Am I still teaching shotokan?

I think so. I think that the guys who don't branch out are sort of missing the point. I don't get how you could only do the same kata and foundational exercises for a few decades and not wan't to develop past that stage, but I'll digress. The way I see it is that the point of a martial art is to give the student a base of skills to work with, just like any other sport. Once that base is in place, the individual is free to grow and develop in accordance with their natural inclinations and their experiences. For some reason, in the Martial Arts world this just isn't enough. We need structure. We need codification and other martial artists to certify that we have improved, however incrementaly, so we get these governing bodies and soke boards, and Grand Master Associations, and "Look'it I got yet another red stripe on my black belt, so that must mean I'm better than the next guy and/or the dead GrandMaster liked me more/I'm the rightfull heir" goobers out there.After all, God forbid that we actually prove that we are better by getting on a mat, or in a ring for that matter. As I approach another of these damn gradings that I despise, I've never been able to wrap my head around the fact that I find the idea of degrees of black belt to be nothing more than self-agrandizing B.S., thought up to sooth the egos of people that had trained good athletes couldn't stand the idea of those athletes being their peers. Were it not for the fact that the idea of my grading to godan being very important to my teacher before his passing, I wouldn't test. I intend it to be my last one.

I am rambling, ranting, and disjointed, sorry.

Point is, and the above rant is why I try to keep myself to myself, what other martial artist do has no bearing on me or how I train. I have had to learn to stop getting riled up about all the random things like this that anger me in the martial art world. These new martial art styles will continue to be created. Some will flourish. Most won't. I'll continue to putter along, and pass what I know to my students. I don't feel the need to change the name. Others may. Should one of my black belts stake out and call what I've taught him, Brick Upside the Head Fu, I'll smile and wish him well.

We make too much of a thing that doesn't impact us. Let the foolish follow the fools. Train the students that come to you and make as much of a good impact on them as you can while you have them. The rests is just dogs chasing rain.

Mark

 

[teekin]

Digging holes with shovels is hard work.

Always better to use a new and improved, high speed, labor saving device to get the job done in a faster and "better" way.

That would be a backhoe.:whip1:



Really, though, I for one am not that bother by it. Aside from my students, or any place that I would work out, I am not concerned with what other perple tie around their waist, or call their style of martial arts. Given that I view a martial art style as nothing more than a teaching model to impart a skillset. I could care less if Billy Joe Jim Bob, the Exalted Super Guru of Chop Saki Do proclaims himself to be a 26th degree mauve belt, and teaches his hand picked students the progressive and modern art of Tire Iron Deuling in the Bed of Monster Trucks as long as he and his students are happy with their arrangement and they keep themselves away from me. What others do in their schools is of no concern to me. No skin off my back.

I am rambling, ranting, and disjointed, sorry.

Oh I don't think so, I think you you made your point very eloquently. Well done.

Should one of my black belts stake out and call what I've taught him, Brick Upside the Head Fu, I'll smile and wish him well.

Best name EVER for Super Secret Ninja fighting method:lfao::roflmao:

We make too much of a thing that doesn't impact us. Let the foolish follow the fools. Train the students that come to you and make as much of a good impact on them as you can while you have them. The rests is just dogs chasing rain.

Mark

Agreed
lori

 

[astrobiologist]

To each their own. I do not support the movement from so many whack "masters" of late who form and name a system of their own for money or for ego, which in the end is really just a weak mix of other styles.

However, remember a lot of our martial arts come to us because at some point along the line someone had to collect what they knew, choose what was best, and make their own system of study out of it. Indeed, before traditionalism and the idea of "systems" and "styles" were around, many families had their own martial art that they shared and passed down from father to son. Sometimes families would merge, bringing new ideas and techniques. Sometimes families would split, shifting techniques and ideas around. And yet at other times memebers of the faimly were forced to use their fighting skill in combat, and the skills that worked were passed along.

If someone wants to have their own style, whatever. That's not going to effect me and the way I train.

 

[MJS]

Why argue about it now, you are in essence arguing the creation of ALL martial arts styles. There are only 88 keys on a piano, but I would strongly suggest that there are MANY more songs to write using them.

All a style is, in reality a set of strategies, tactics and technqiues that all combine to support the overall approach to combat. Since EVERYONE on this planet has a slightly different psychological make up and physical make up you are going to have many different approaches to combat.

The only true test for a style is, how long it has been passed down. Someone mentioned Isshin-Ryu and Tatsuo, even today on Okinawa it is considered a substyle of Shorin-Ryu. What about TKD? It's history is from japanese karate (shotokan). Also, many older okinawan katas are found to be older forms already found on okinawa and not something brought back from China as the founder claimed.

So again, you have SOMEONE creating SOMETHING that is their own unique approach and putting a name to it. It has always been done this way and it will continue to happen this way.

See my reply here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1114029&postcount=31

 

[kidswarrior]

See my reply here.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1114029&postcount=31

Not to nitpick, but since Thompson has been cited wrongly twice now, want to set this part straight. Here's what we know of Geoff Thompson's view of kata, courtesy of exile on MT (who merely quotes from GT's own books):

...Geoff Thompson says, there's a huge amount of combat-worthy information encoded in the kata...

and

...the following (is a) tip from a gentleman named Geoff Thompson , in his book The Pavement Arena:

For the karateka wishing to pursue knowledge of self defense, kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation... All of the skills developed by kata are necessary when street defense is called for... if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer tremendous benefits to the street-oriented.​

I do agree, tho, that being 'perceptive enough to see' the kata's street applications probably requires that we simplify the applications we've been using/perhaps been taught. I think GT would agree with this, if his 3second fight is any indication.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Going off on your own and creating something a little new is not always done for glory and fame. It may in some circumstances happen because of deep political differences inside the system or because of deeply personal reasons that have developed between the “new founder” and his old instructors.
Going off on ones own is risky in the fact that you alienate many with in your old organization and the members of that organization are no longer allowed to associate with you. You sometimes lose the respect that others have of you because of things that may be said behind your back (true or not true).
Starting a new organization and yet trying to keep many if not most of what you taught before while adding techniques, forms, and a new curriculum is not as easy as many think. To develop something that holds the value of time honored tradition while imparting new ideas takes a time and dedication to the students welfare and development.
One must be sure that they teach not just fluff and fancy looking techniques but techniques that will help the student survive in the environment they live in or may live in.
Those that start a “new system “ from books and videos cheat their students. Those that have studied only a month here and a month their and feel they know more than their instructor not only fool themselves but put their students in harms way.

 

[MJS]

Not to nitpick, but since Thompson has been cited wrongly twice now, want to set this part straight. Here's what we know of Geoff Thompson's view of kata, courtesy of exile on MT (who merely quotes from GT's own books): and

I do agree, tho, that being 'perceptive enough to see' the kata's street applications probably requires that we simplify the applications we've been using/perhaps been taught. I think GT would agree with this, if his 3second fight is any indication.

I'm not against kata. I do them in Kenpo and Arnis. As for the RBSD folks...well, here are Sammy Francos thoughts. While Geoff Thompson may find value in kata, I would think that he bases his teachings on other things as well as kata. Take wiki for what its worth, but I also saw this.

I really don't want to turn this into another pro vs con of kata debate. That simply was used as an example.