Need some information on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
- Thread starter Kframe
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Honestly, I have no idea what you're on about here... how was what I said (that you gave a cut-down version of) "strange", or "lead(ing) to a wrong perception"? There was no "confusion" of equating the name "Bujinkan" with the Togakure Ryu (specific), there was the description of when, how, and why the names were used... there was nothing at all about "diminishing" the Togakure Ryu name... frankly, your comments here show less understanding of the history here, if I'm to be blunt.
Yeah, I know your position. And you know mine. But hey, if come across anything that shows Kacem to have any understanding of the different riai, hyoshi, ma-ai etc of the Ryu-ha, anything that has him at a correct distancing, anything that has him using a weapon in a way that wouldn't get him killed... let me know. I'm more than happy to see something good out of the Bujinkan. But nothing I've seen shows the understanding you suggest, honestly. Of course, I'm on record saying that if Kacem was to hold a seminar in a location that was easily accessible to me, I would make every effort to attend. So, if you ever hear of anything in Australia (preferably Melbourne, but Sydney'd be fine... large Bujinkan community there...), let me know, and I'll attend to "witness first-handedly" myself. And I promise that I will keep a completely open mind.
- Thread Starter
- #86
Here Is a good question though for everyone. I was on google, and was looking for examples bujinkan ground fighting/survival and found a number of dojos saying they teach Suwari Newaza, then they use parenthesis and say its ground fighting. Can someone explain to me the differences between Suwari newaza and the Newaza that BJJ/Judo does? If I remember my searching correctly suwari newaza is merely seated/kneeling techniques and not in any way congruent to BJJ/Judo Newaza.
Please educate me on the meaning and purpose behind the Suwari ne waza. In context of way back in history when the arts were in there heyday and how it relates to modern defensive application.
I just think it maybe a little misleading to use the term ground fighting, as it conjures up Bjj/mma in the minds of most non martial lay people who may be interested joining.
Thanks for the insight guys.
Please educate me on the meaning and purpose behind the Suwari ne waza. In context of way back in history when the arts were in there heyday and how it relates to modern defensive application.
I just think it maybe a little misleading to use the term ground fighting, as it conjures up Bjj/mma in the minds of most non martial lay people who may be interested joining.
Thanks for the insight guys.
- Thread Starter
- #88
http://www.bujinkanlosangeles.com/#schedule Many others simply list it under the Jutaijutsu heading. Again im not trying to bash them, just understand what exactly suwari is, what it isn't. How it relates to modern self defense.
I understand that by using the words ground fighting its effective marketing, but a little misleading. Nothing new there, all marketing is deception anyways.
I understand that by using the words ground fighting its effective marketing, but a little misleading. Nothing new there, all marketing is deception anyways.
Dear Kframe,
Suwari waza refers to techniques done while sitting down. The traditional way of sitting in Japan is directly on the ground so its not that far fetched to call it ground fighting even though it conjurs up other images in most peoples heads. There are waza for fighting seated, even lying on the ground and of course you can also adapt to the situation. What is even more important is, you have a lot of ways of getting back up as well as methods preventing you from falling down in the first place. Most, except for a few hard heads, realize it is very dangerous to be on the ground so if you can avoid it its better to get up.
Regards / Skuggvarg
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
As skuggvarg said, suwari gata and ne waza are different things. Suwari gata are techniques where you begin seated, ne waza are methods for fighting on the ground... while the two are often confused, and they are not that closely related. The contexts of each are quite removed from each other. The usage of the term "suwari ne waza" means that either there's a mistake in the grammar/structure of the term (possibly "suwari/ne waza", or "suwari, ne waza"...?), or a lack of understanding of the term(s) themselves.
So, the meaning and purpose? Well, in many cases, suwari gata are pretty much purely about self defence... they are non-battlefield methods, often against attacks that are ambushes/assassinations. The context is teaching you to be prepared to act in any situation, really. From there, you can get into an investigation of how the particular system approaches suwari gata, which can tell you a lot about the history of the art... for example, there's a reason that Takagi Yoshin Ryu uses a form of seiza (a kneeling posture), but Shinden Fudo Ryu doesn't... it uses a form of Fudoza (sitting on one foot). Okay, there's a few reasons...
When it comes to the Bujinkan, there isn't any actual ne waza in any of the Ryu, as it just doesn't suit the context for them. Of course, that doesn't mean that there's no ground work in the Bujinkan dojos... I've seen it taught as a transplant in from BJJ or Judo, I've seen variations of standing waza performed as ne waza, I've seen stuff that is, well, completely invented being taught as well. As with everything, it depends on the dojo in question.
- Thread Starter
- #91
Thank you guys for the informative posts. So there both ground techniques but one is more about surviving a attack, and the other is more of a fighting system on the ground.
What a indepth system im getting into. Im guessing one could spend a lifetime and not learn it all..
With regards to BBT, and related systems, are you required to master everything or can you specialize? With the massive amount of weapons taught, I would imagine it prudent to specialize in one area.
What a indepth system im getting into. Im guessing one could spend a lifetime and not learn it all..
With regards to BBT, and related systems, are you required to master everything or can you specialize? With the massive amount of weapons taught, I would imagine it prudent to specialize in one area.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Ha, no, but at the same time, kinda, yeah....
Hmm... in one way, yes, absolutely. In another way, nah.... you can learn it all in, I'd say, 10-15 years, covering all the official material, but really "knowing" it, yeah, that is more a matter of constant development and exploration over a lifetime.
As with everything here, it depends. You're not "required" to do anything... if there's something that particularly interests you, by all means, take that as far as you might desire. I'd suggest that many, particularly more experienced practitioners, do just that... but the catch is that, until you're taught a sufficient cross-section of the breadth of the art, you won't have a basis to see what really speaks to you... so, for now, it again comes down to following what you get taught in class. Right now, you seem to have an affinity for staff weapons... but you might find a greater love of sword work... or rope... or chain... or you might find that Koto Ryu just gels with you, or Kukishinden Ryu, or anything else. Right now, you wouldn't know... so have some patience, absorb what you can, pay attention, and enjoy!
- Thread Starter
- #93
Thanks again CP. I was hoping, you could point out were I was flawed when I said that both were ground techniques, one survival and the other a ground fighting system. I just want to make sure I have the distinction correct. I guess im using the word "ground" wrong. I think of being seated or kneeling on the ground as a ground technique, but that may be just my poor use of the English language.
Your right I do have a affinity for staff weapons, of all lengths, but that is mostly for practical reasons. I believe that off all possible things I can use for improvised weaponry, stick/staff related arts will suit me the best. That and I can walk with a cane, and bam instant hanbo or even a Jo if I get one long enough. No one bats an aye at a walking stick. Im also very into knife techniques. I do like swords but everyone and there brother does to. Though I see what your saying, and I will keep on training. Who knows, maybe in time ill find something else that I like with in the system.
Your right I do have a affinity for staff weapons, of all lengths, but that is mostly for practical reasons. I believe that off all possible things I can use for improvised weaponry, stick/staff related arts will suit me the best. That and I can walk with a cane, and bam instant hanbo or even a Jo if I get one long enough. No one bats an aye at a walking stick. Im also very into knife techniques. I do like swords but everyone and there brother does to. Though I see what your saying, and I will keep on training. Who knows, maybe in time ill find something else that I like with in the system.
There is so much to explore within Budo Taijutsu that you will never get bored. It is a very broad system with lots of room to explore and to specialize!
- Thread Starter
- #95
Well on MAP I found a thread from 2011. Man there is some crazy political stuff in BBT.. According to some, unless your a deshi of Hatsumi Soke you don't matter.. Basically saying from what I read that you can be a 15th dan in BBT and not matter to the arts.. That only people getting Menkyo Kaiden in the 9 ryu that make up BBT matter.
What the hell is that about? Do the leaders in Japan really not give a flying rats butt about the normal practitioners and weather or not they are adequately representing the art?
Oh well, doesn't change anything for me.
What the hell is that about? Do the leaders in Japan really not give a flying rats butt about the normal practitioners and weather or not they are adequately representing the art?
Oh well, doesn't change anything for me.
I think it comes down two two things, Hatsumi sensei not being the best organizer, and the Japanese culture of pseudo politeness. Almost anyone can have any rank their ego will allow irrespective of their skill or lack there of. However 'demanding' rank, hard as it is to belief one would, has been proven in effectual.
As it has been stated many times bujinkan rank (kyu/dan) is not relevant to skill or knowledge, or at best only relevant to that particular student ant that particular time, by that particular instructor. Or to exemplify the other side of the coin, you could easily arrive at hombu as a sandan, be graded to yondan and sit the godan that night!
It's really no wonder that a few people have given up recognizing any rank other than menkyo, as only good practitioners hold such a rank, unlike the biscuit factory of 15 th dans!
But really, don't worry about it, just worry about you and your instructor
- Thread Starter
- #98
LOL greg. Aye im learning that this art is different.. I honestly wonder at the point of having ranks if they mean nothing. Though if they have no real meaning that it does clear one up to just focus on their training and goals they set for them selves.
Im not to overly worried about rankings because coming from mma, we don't do rankings. It is a curious thing, how does Soke keep standards up if the ranks mean nothing.. After watching the human weapon episode with the BBT, I expected a 15th dan to not get spanked in h2h unarmed, but it happened. So then ranking must be social/political. I wonder if that 15th dan made any changes to his personal training after that.
Meh but as was stated, only thing that matters is my training and my application of training.
Im not to overly worried about rankings because coming from mma, we don't do rankings. It is a curious thing, how does Soke keep standards up if the ranks mean nothing.. After watching the human weapon episode with the BBT, I expected a 15th dan to not get spanked in h2h unarmed, but it happened. So then ranking must be social/political. I wonder if that 15th dan made any changes to his personal training after that.
Meh but as was stated, only thing that matters is my training and my application of training.
This blog entry may shed some light on that...
http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/the-human-weapon/
Also see: http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/human-weapon-aftermath/
http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/10/11/the-human-weapon/
Also see: http://henka.wordpress.com/2007/12/16/human-weapon-aftermath/
- Thread Starter
- #100
Thanks for the links JKS. It was just kind of odd to watch that segment. I really was expecting someone with that kind of rank to do better in unarmed. Unless Jason chambers is really that good unarmed then I understand. I was hoping to see more of a fight, see some good unarmed skills. He owned on the weapons though.. Totally owned him..
