Need some information on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[Brian R. VanCise]

Some Bujinkan schools spar and some do not. From a street self defense perspective sparring is not the end all be all of personal protection. Personally I spar and in IRT we spar full contact as well as grappling and sparring with weapons. Some Budo Taijutsu Dojo that I know of also do this but they are not the majority by any means. Personally, the most realistic form of training for self defense with pressure testing is to do Scenario Based Training. Walk through a scenario and then pad up and have at it. (it can go anywhere the participants take it) Scenario Based Training is essential from a self defense perspective in my mind. Hard contact with potential grappling and or working to escape, etc. Quite a few Bujinkan schools I know of have a bit of this within their curriculum.

Some people will simply not like the training within Budo Taijutsu. (just like I or you may not like what they are doing) With your background in MMA and a desire to learn it probably will suit you really well. Many of the pioneers in the Bujinkan came into it from other systems and or military, police training, etc. They not only enjoy it but swear by it! Since real world self defense revolves around weapons/tools and this is a system that deals with them then it makes sense that people in real world dangerous occupations like it!

Hope that helps!

 

[Kframe]

Actually Brian, it does help. I don't understand his hatred. Im not a TMA guy by any stretch but I can see the principals and concepts behind much of what they were doing. Just a wildly different way of going about it. Im done with mma for personal reasons, namely I cant stand the ego's and schools arnt stable. They can disappear or degenerate at the drop of a hat.

With regards to sparring, I think you are correct. Situational scenario drills with intensity are what is called for. I think they do that, but at a higher level. Which is ok because whats the point if you don't have the basics down pat with incrementally increasing pressure.


You are correct about there weapons training. None of the taijutsu changes. The same principals apply to there weapons as they do to unarmed. They demonstrated that with a knife for me. So you really think there Hanbo and Bo skills are good? I was watching some Dog brothers and that was what prompted that question. I wanted to see if they were as involved as there system was.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.

Chris is really smart when it comes to Japanese history, Martial Systems, etc. However, he is not a Bujinkan practitioner so his advice in regards to this system is not always spot on. Still he has an immense wealth of information to share and knows more than most!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Actually Brian, it does help. I don't understand his hatred. Im not a TMA guy by any stretch but I can see the principals and concepts behind much of what they were doing. Just a wildly different way of going about it. Im done with mma for personal reasons, namely I cant stand the ego's and schools arnt stable. They can disappear or degenerate at the drop of a hat.

With regards to sparring, I think you are correct. Situational scenario drills with intensity are what is called for. I think they do that, but at a higher level. Which is ok because whats the point if you don't have the basics down pat with incrementally increasing pressure.


You are correct about there weapons training. None of the taijutsu changes. The same principals apply to there weapons as they do to unarmed. They demonstrated that with a knife for me. So you really think there Hanbo and Bo skills are good? I was watching some Dog brothers and that was what prompted that question. I wanted to see if they were as involved as there system was.

The Dog Brother's system is exceptional at what they do! Very, very good and I enjoy it a lot! Budo Taijutsu skill sets with the hanbo, rokushaku bo are extremely and I do mean extremely good. That is an area where Hatsumi is simply one of the best in the world. You will not find anyone arguing about that!

 

[Chris Parker]

I regret my fights with Chris parker, he is so smart about this stuff.

Firstly, I'd just like to say I appreciate this. From my end, I say we have a clean start... I'm going to go back to the MMA thread, by the way, just to further inform you on some of the details you're less sure of.

Chris is really smart when it comes to Japanese history, Martial Systems, etc. However, he is not a Bujinkan practitioner so his advice in regards to this system is not always spot on. Still he has an immense wealth of information to share and knows more than most!

Except, Brian... I am a former Bujinkan student, my Dan ranking is in the Bujinkan, I have been intimately involved in the Bujinkan and other forms of Takamatsu-den organizations and more for two decades plus now, so I'm not entirely sure that stating I'm not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) has that much to do with anything.

That said...

Brian, and others, can you Address Mr Djerivics issues with bbt? I don't understand the nearly vitriolic hatred he has for this art. Which for him is odd, seeing as he is such a level headed guy. Here is the link to the thread I have on it. http://www.traditionalfightingartsforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3127

Hmm. Look, to be frank, Mr Djerivics doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. His opinions are based on a lack of knowledge and experience, and seem to be biased from the outset. I'll go through some of his comments, and point out where he's mistaken:

I'm glad it went well.

But sorry - I'm not a fan of ninjutsu (bujinkan taijutsu etc.). You'll note that I don't have a ninja forum here - and that's because I don't see these as schools of "traditional martial arts". As near as I can tell, they comprise eclectic combinations of various ippon kumite (one step sparring) drills drawn mostly from jujutsu but done with a karate emphasis. Karate and other tma do have ippon kumite: but to base an entire "system" on this paradigm fails to acknowledge the limitations of such "standing start drills".

Hmm. Well, he got that wrong. The authentic Ninjutsu schools (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, some offshoots) are not "eclectic combinations of various ippon kumite", they are actually collections of various traditional Japanese martial arts. Without getting into the more questionable histories and lineages, two of the six dominantly taught arts are Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu... both of which are absolutely verified as old Japanese arts. Additionally, the make-up of the other systems (Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, and, most of all, Shinden Fudo Ryu) all fit exactly with traditional Japanese martial arts. The problem is that Dan has no experience or idea of what such arts are like... so he dismisses what he doesn't understand. His comment about "bas(ing) an entire system on this paradigm (what he thinks is similar to "ippon kumite"... something found in karate, which shows the filter he's working through) fails to acknowledge the limitations" shows that he has no experience in traditional arts... I mean, he's just basically dismissed all traditional Japanese arts, because that's the way they're all designed. These arts ain't karate... but we'll get to that.

From there, he posted a video of a "ninjutsu" practitioner performing an incredibly bad seio-nage... except the video he chose was of a fraudulent individual, someone with no connection to anything authentically Japanese, let alone Ninjutsu, whatsoever. Jonathon Allen's background is in Ashida Kim's group... to put that into context, he might as well say he trained with John McClane (Die Hard), and therefore is able to instruct SWAT teams...

Btw, I don't buy - at all - the "creation myths" propounded by ninjas today. What we see nowadays as "ninjutsu" was created in the late 70s and early 80s as part of a "ninja movie craze". I don't believe there is any extant "authentic" school of ninjutsu. There probably never was such a thing (ninjas were assassins - no practitioners of some particular "art").

To deal with the "creation myths", it should be noted that many Japanese arts have similar invented, or embellished histories... and the histories given by the various Ryu in the Bujinkan have long been known and acknowledged as being embellished, at the very least. But, from there, Dan shows again that he doesn't have any real knowledge in this area, as he brings out the old "ninja were assassins" tripe. Uh, no. There's actually no evidence to suggest that at all, historically speaking. "Ninja" (there were other names used, for the record) were primarily information gatherers, spies, for want of a better term, occasionally employed for sabotage or similar.

With regards to there being "extant authentic schools" of ninjutsu, even outside of the Bujinkan there are a number of schools that contain ninjutsu in one form or another... most famously the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu. Again, he just doesn't have the education to make any comment there.


(In response to the comment that "they don't call themselves 'ninja' anymore")

Yes, I know many such schools. They have moved on to avoid embarrassment.

Uh... no. It's far more to do with the fact that, in the Bujinkan for instance, there are 6 schools primarily taught (only little bits of the remaining three have been shown, so they can be almost discounted in the main), and only one of those is a Ninjutsu school. The vast majority of what you do isn't Ninjutsu at all...

Drills are fine - don't get me wrong. Even static ones. But most ninja training doesn't contain any truly dynamic context drills. It may be that you've chanced upon a school that does. If so, that is fine. But I can't say I've ever seen one. I've seen lots that can demonstrate some very impressive stuff - but it has never involved anything other than a "zombie attacker".

I added a video to my previous post. Here's another. The technique is fine. But if this is all there is to the attacker...

Godsdammit, he's basically describing the way kata (Japanese) are designed to be trained (his "dynamic context drills"), while saying that the exact method he wants isn't there... and he knows this how?

Okay, I'll be blunt here. I've just read most of his website, his linked blogs, and more, and frankly, ignore him. He doesn't know anything, he has no traditional art background or knowledge (so how he's able to say what is or isn't is another question entirely... his art is a hybrid system, eclectic and modern, not traditional at all, for the record), every one of his blogs is ludicrously off base (he misses what kata is, he doesn't understand what the training methods of other arts are, he presents his incredibly non-Japanese take on "Jo" as "lessons from Japanese weapon arts" - let me tell you, you use the weapon like that in a real Jo class, you get told to put the weapon down - and way, way more). The only thing I can find that he gets right is he correctly identifies the Sanshin no Kata... which is a fundamental movement exercise, not a directly applicable combative series... then complains that it's a basic series of actions, not a combative sequence. Well, yes, that's right. And that's not a criticism, unless he thinks that everything done in a class has to be a fighting technique... in which case, I'd recommend he starts looking again.

Simply put, Dan has no idea of traditional anything. As soon as he starts spouting that, ignore him.

 

[Kframe]

Chris, Thank you for taking time to respond. I didn't know that Goju was a modern style. You mentioned 3 schools don't get taught much. I had read that those schools were things like castle building and other period centric material. I could have sworn read that one of those styles dealt with espionage and masquerading and map skills and water skills.

What's strange about that whole situation is that, coming from MMA I actually got a lot out that class. As I told Dan it took me along time to figure out that I learn better in more "drills" centric environment. (which I know its kata that I was doing. For me I have always called that kind of thing drills.) I learned that I can not do anything slowly only fast and that I don't know the context of movements I was taught.(the modified karate I was studying) I think my MMA experience was both a help and curse. Some things I was doing instinctively and others were like a foreign language. Things they teach that I did normally was tuck the chin and cover cheek with shoulder/bicep.

I can see the principals behind a lot of what I was show. Mostly basic things like the circular checks and the body movement while doing the punching drill.

I had a feeling that his appraisal of their kata drilling system was flawed, because of all the things you and I have discussed, kata was one of them. A long time ago you showed me how Traditional Japanese Kata were different, and how they trained was different. I went into that class with those thoughts in the back of my mind. One thing I was surprised at was the solo kata/forms. I didn't know they did that. I thought that BBT had Partnered Kata? I cant remember the names of the kata but there was 5 basic ones that all fed into each other. I rather liked them more then what I have seen of the karate systems kata.

From what I was told the advanced class is higher speed then the lower level class I was at. With more pressure and I would assume more complicated things. I know they have a regularly schedualed randori class. Can you tell me what I can expect from a BBT randori class? Say how would it differ or someone that is a 8th or 9th kyu vs someone that is a higher kyu like a 3rd-1st and above?

I wonder how the training looks like in the advanced class. 8th kyu and above. Dan has a problem with the nature of the beginners class being so slow. IDK I agree with the instructor who invited me to train there. He wanted the beginner class to be about perfecting the basics and technical skills. Like I said. I actually got a lot out of just that slow low class. Cant wait to see what further training does for me.


What about his assessment of the Ninjato sword? It kind of makes sense to me. Wouldn't a ninja just get a shorter more straight katana? I would imagine such things existed. As was noted in the wiki article. I thought that ninja were also high ranking in society like the Samurai were? If that is the case they can afford to have a custom sword made.

What is funny is the transition from mma to BBT. I never saw it coming. I thought I would MMA my way through all my martial needs. Then my mma gym drops the adult class and the other one folds up do to familial sickness and im left with out a place to train. Not being impressed with karate in my area and for all the reasons I laid out to Dan, I figured WTH ill give them a shot.


There was just something about it that felt good. I like that their was a solid weapons system in place covering most of my areas of interest. From swords to spears and sticks and bows and knives and even gun defense. LOL I cant wait to learn the throwing weapons just for the pure fun of them.

Chris can you recommend any books and other things I can read and watch that can further help my knowledge of the art im getting into?

 

[Kframe]

I was hoping you guys could help me with some thing. I was trying to find videos of Bujinkan kicking techniques. Im trying to find videos so I can start working on that odd front kick. Its so different then the MT and karate front kicks im used to. It starts off with the leg swinging straight, and it doesn't chamber until the end of the swing. Then it push's out. It is a push kick. He described it like a rock on a string.

I have yet to find any good Youtube videos of it. Hoping you can help.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I always recommend that people go straight to the source. Hatsumi Sensei has many DVD's out there and I am sure you can find what you need by purchasing one of them. I will look later to find some thing online to help you out.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

KFrame a great book that should be in every Bujinkan practitioner's library is Stick Fighting Techniques for Self Defense by Hatsumi Sensei.

Here is a link to where you can see a photo of it: http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Fighting-Self-Defense-Masaaki-Hatsumi/dp/1568364997

You can typically find it in most Barnes and Noble book stores.

 

[Kframe]

Thanks for the find. Im gonna order it. Looks like a great addition to my growing stick fighting library.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Except, Brian... I am a former Bujinkan student, my Dan ranking is in the Bujinkan, I have been intimately involved in the Bujinkan and other forms of Takamatsu-den organizations and more for two decades plus now, so I'm not entirely sure that stating I'm not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) has that much to do with anything.

As I stated before Chris you are a really knowledgeable practitioner and you do know your history of the Takumatsuden Arts very, very well. However, you are not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) nor a Budo Taijutsu exponent. Not being current in Budo Taijutsu and a direct connection with Soke (through an instructor or yourself) hinders anyone's ability to fully convey everything correctly. Because of this there could be misinterpretation. (particularly in regards to training technique) It is no different than myself in that while I have a connection and I do train in Budo Taijutsu and am a current member. I simply cannot give every correct answer either as it is not the only system that I study. I can give pretty good answers and I can research with people who absolutely know the correct answer. (because I am connected) Yet I am not an expert on everything Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan or the Takumatsuden Arts! I will leave that to others who are Michael Asuncion, Phil Legare, Don Roley, Doug Wilson, Dale Seago, Paul Richardson, (many more westerners I just listed a few) and of course the Japanese Shihan and Hatsumi himself. Just clarifying where anyone training in the Bujinkan should get their information.

Having said the above that certainly does not mean that either you or I can comment as we certainly have wisdom and or knowledge in this area. Just that as with everything there are experts and then there are the real experts!

In KFrames position his current instructor in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu specifically is in the best position to answer any an all of his questions. (particularly as there is a less likelihood of misinterpretation talking with someone in person than online) I then would encourage him to slowly purchase Books and DVD's over time written by Hatsumi to get even a better understanding of this system. If history is what he is looking for Paul Richardson wrote a book that is a good start. Technique wise stick with the Books and DVD's written by Hatsumi Sensei and you cannot go wrong. Of course we can also give him advise here but the above is better than anything you or I can give him!

 

[Kframe]

Thank you for the name drops Brian. Ill look them up. You are correct, in that I should ask the instructor. I did infact do just that. I spent 45minutes talking about the art with him. His goal is to get 15th before Soke Hatsumi retires. He just wants to pass on a quality martial art that people can defend them selves with and some good life lessons as well. He did his best to explain how the technical progression works. I understand it a lot better. Some thing called Shu Ha RI. Right now im at Shu. Later ill be at the Ha, then later through diligent study RI. I have been reading things by SOKE Hatsumi and my new instructor, they both mentioned that the RI part usually starts around 5th bb, or godan I think. Which makes sense.

Shu Ha Ri is a new concept for me, but not new if that makes sense. My former mma training was kinda like a fast tracked Shu ha ri. Just I didn't spend enough time in Shu or Ha.

My new instructor likes to teach variations of everything. So that you can still use a technique even if your not in the proper space to do it. I only have few questions left regarding this art. My main question is how does this art pressure test its self at higher levels. I forgot to ask that question in our conversation. Can you guys enlighten me about how a good BBT school pressure tests its students skills?

Other then that, Im at the point were I have no real need to ask technical questions about such and such a technique. I have only to train, and I intend to train my *** off.

I do know this. I intend to use my mma skills to help my new friends In there training. Being a Good tori is important to me. If I can provide someone who can throw reasonably good boxing/mma punch's and kicks or them to practice against im happy to provide that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey KFrame,

Most of the good Budo Taijutsu people that I know also incorporate Scenario Based Training into their skill sets so that you get that pressure testing. (not everyone does this but most that I know do) Your MMA skills will only help you learn Budo Taijutsu and will also help you appreciate your new skill sets. Since I cross train extensively I personally believe that Budo Taijutsu people should as well. The seminar I told you about in Columbia City, Indiana at Living Arts has an instructor named Dean Houser who also cross trains, spars, does Scenario Based Training and yes he teaches Budo Taijutsu. He also has that connection to Soke because he travels to Japan. That is a great way to train in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu in my opinion!

 

[Kframe]

What does he cross train in just curious? I cant wait to come to the seminar, should be lots of fun.

Question though. Wont cross training muddy the water a bit? Slow progress down at early levels?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

What does he cross train in just curious? I cant wait to come to the seminar, should be lots of fun.

Question wont cross training muddy the water a bit? Slow progress down at early levels?

It certainly can muddy the water early on. At your stage you should probably stick with your Budo Taijutsu training and of course remember your MMA training. Though an occasional seminar and or training won't hurt you. You already in a way are cross training coming from another background! Plus Budo Taijutsu is of course a very, very broad system!

Dean has done a lot of Scenario Based Training (IRT, Bill Kipp FAST Defense to name a few) and he has extensive IRT experience, Iaido, FMA, Sparring with local schools, etc, etc. He has a very broad based perspective that of course only helps his Budo Taijutsu. Most of the senior practitioner's in the Bujinkan came into it with quite a bit of previous training in the Martial Sciences. That of course only helped their perspective and also their training.

 

[Kframe]

Well through out my day i find my self walking through my various mma striking and defenses. It seams i have silently added in the kata i was taught as well. Ill never forget my mma, its got some great OH POOP defenses in it.

 

[Kframe]

Im getting shredded on Traditional fighting arts forum. They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts, and one guy claims to have studied it for 2.5 years and then went on to arma and found it to be better. Saying he came back and challenged the instructor and he couldn't touch him. They are all using my mma against me, saying that because they don't free spar its ineffective. Im probably going to have to sign off that forum, its causing doubts in my mind.

I know what I saw, I saw a good program. Taught by a good person.

Screw them..

 

[Tony Dismukes]

They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts...

I think you mean Takamatsu. Takamatsu was Hatsumi's instructor. Tanemura was a senior student of Hatsumi who broke away to start his own organization.

It is true that only 3 (I think) of the 9 arts contained within the Bujinkan can be verified to have existed before Takamatsu. That doesn't necessarily mean Takamatsu invented them all himself. He might have, or they might just have been very obscure, almost extinct traditions. It is very probable that even if Takamatsu did not invent them then some of the lineages are exaggerated.

This really should only concern you if you are primarily concerned with studying a genuine ancient historical art. The fact of the matter is that the martial arts in general are filled with highly inaccurate origin myths and historical flights of fancy. If you are primarily training for self-defense, then your concern should be whether this school can help you develop usable skills in that respect.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this might take a bit...

Chris, Thank you for taking time to respond. I didn't know that Goju was a modern style. You mentioned 3 schools don't get taught much. I had read that those schools were things like castle building and other period centric material. I could have sworn read that one of those styles dealt with espionage and masquerading and map skills and water skills.

Right. Firstly, Goju Ryu (Okinawan) is fairly traditional, Goju Kai (Japanese) a little more modern (a generation or two between them, with some questions about how much Goju Ryu was learned by Goju Kai's founder, but that's another discussion entirely), however what Dan does is takes some Goju, some Taiji, some other stuff, some made-up weapons use (that he calls traditional... that usage of Jo was a damn joke, and nothing like Japanese usage, let alone traditional), creating a modern eclectic system... in fact, far more than the Bujinkan or any other of the Ninjutsu organizations are. He's really not that informed on what traditional arts, or even Japanese arts, are actually like... at one point he lists what he considers a drawcard of the "Ninjutsu" systems being that there's "no long string of solo movements"... implying that that form of training is more "traditional". Uh, no, actually. It's a Chinese training device, transplanted to Okinawa, and found in modern Karate systems and related arts (such as TKD)... traditional Japanese arts are almost entirely shorter paired sequences. That's what traditional Japanese arts look like... Dan has no idea. And don't get me started on how off he was on Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu... being in Perth, I know exactly where he trained, and he understood nothing, and gets a lot wrong about the art itself.

What's strange about that whole situation is that, coming from MMA I actually got a lot out that class. As I told Dan it took me along time to figure out that I learn better in more "drills" centric environment. (which I know its kata that I was doing. For me I have always called that kind of thing drills.) I learned that I can not do anything slowly only fast and that I don't know the context of movements I was taught.(the modified karate I was studying) I think my MMA experience was both a help and curse. Some things I was doing instinctively and others were like a foreign language. Things they teach that I did normally was tuck the chin and cover cheek with shoulder/bicep.

Just a small aside, there's a world of difference between drills and (traditional Japanese) kata, despite the superficial similarities between the two. Drills are simply skill builders (learn this footwork, develop your timing, work on your targeting, and so on), whereas kata are about teaching a tactical response. Ideally, you can use a drill to work on/learn a new kick/block/throw etc, but with a kata, you are learning a tactical response that happens to use that kick/block/throw.

I can see the principals behind a lot of what I was show. Mostly basic things like the circular checks and the body movement while doing the punching drill.

Good. The principles are the important thing.

I had a feeling that his appraisal of their kata drilling system was flawed, because of all the things you and I have discussed, kata was one of them. A long time ago you showed me how Traditional Japanese Kata were different, and how they trained was different. I went into that class with those thoughts in the back of my mind. One thing I was surprised at was the solo kata/forms. I didn't know they did that. I thought that BBT had Partnered Kata? I cant remember the names of the kata but there was 5 basic ones that all fed into each other. I rather liked them more then what I have seen of the karate systems kata.

The vast majority of kata in the Bujinkan arts are paired, the Sanshin no Kata (the series of five, taken from Gyokko Ryu, representing five elements: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void) are the best known exception. It sounds like you also did some of the Kihon Happo (fundamental techniques, also taken from the Gyokko Ryu, although there are some dojo that teach variations that come from other Ryu, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu or Kukishin Ryu), specifically Omote Gyaku, and possibly Omote Gyaku Ura Gyaku Henka... those are more along the lines of the paired kata.

From what I was told the advanced class is higher speed then the lower level class I was at. With more pressure and I would assume more complicated things. I know they have a regularly schedualed randori class. Can you tell me what I can expect from a BBT randori class? Say how would it differ or someone that is a 8th or 9th kyu vs someone that is a higher kyu like a 3rd-1st and above?

Nope. Can't tell you at all. And the main reason is that, particularly in the Bujinkan, there really isn't anything like a "standard" approach or structure... so the way it's structured there is based on the preferences and ideas of the instructor at that dojo. I know some that turn it into semi-MMA... others are closer to Aikido-style randori... some like to segment individual skill sets (say, throws, making it like Judo, or striking, or ground work, or weapon defence, or anything, really)... some don't do anything at all.

I wonder how the training looks like in the advanced class. 8th kyu and above. Dan has a problem with the nature of the beginners class being so slow. IDK I agree with the instructor who invited me to train there. He wanted the beginner class to be about perfecting the basics and technical skills. Like I said. I actually got a lot out of just that slow low class. Cant wait to see what further training does for me.

Dan's not in the class. Ignore whatever he has a problem with, he doesn't have any real frame of reference to make comments.

What about his assessment of the Ninjato sword? It kind of makes sense to me. Wouldn't a ninja just get a shorter more straight katana? I would imagine such things existed. As was noted in the wiki article. I thought that ninja were also high ranking in society like the Samurai were? If that is the case they can afford to have a custom sword made.

The straight "ninja-to" has been known to be a fallacy for a long time... there's no real evidence for it existing, and there's no historical reason for it to have existed. The Togakure Ryu does feature a specialist blade, which is shorter than a "typical" (whatever that is) katana, but it's still a katana, it's still curved, and so on. The idea of a specialist sizing weapon isn't unique to this school, of course, many schools have had something unique to them over history, that just happens to be the one that Togakure Ryu uses. But you won't find a "straight ninja-to" in any legit schools... it's only found in the bogus, movie-based ones, such as the "Koga Ryu" schools. And, for the record, the only book by Hatsumi that mentions or refers to the weapon was ghost written by Hayes... Hatsumi didn't say anything of the kind... and the picture in the book is not a straight blade. So his comments about ignoring Hatsumi based on a wiki article that references him is, well, not exactly a fair statement.

Of course, reading from there, Dan goes in completely the wrong direction. He starts talking about the stick methods found in the Bujinkan, and states (in reference to Hatsumi and the Bojutsu of the Bujinkan) that: "He may well have founded a half-decent stick fighting discipline, but given that he almost certainly hasn't fought someone in a real battle with a staff (unlike the creators of the original staff systems of Okinawa/Japan)". Frankly, this just shows that he really is in no position to argue about the validity of anything. The staff work in the Bujinkan comes from the Kukishinden Ryu... which, despite the validy issues with other arts, is very much a historically verified art. It exists in a number of branches both within and without the "Ninjutsu" schools, and is most famous for it's bojutsu. Of everything in the Bujinkan, the two most unimpeachable aspects are the Jujutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden Ryu. They are as legit as it gets in these areas, and Hatsumi created/founded nothing there. And, again, let's just remind ourselves of what we're referring to here...

(Dan's "Jo" work... interestingly, in a lot of his videos, he claims to be teaching Aikijo... which was created by Ueshiba, who never used a Jo in a "real battle"... but learned Bojutsu from some Kukishinden Ryu practitioners... hmm... but, for the record, it looks nothing like what is seen here. The distance is terrible, there's no power, no understanding of the weapon, it's just being swung around with no real concern. Not impressed)

(Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, here demonstrated by the Genbukan)

What is funny is the transition from mma to BBT. I never saw it coming. I thought I would MMA my way through all my martial needs. Then my mma gym drops the adult class and the other one folds up do to familial sickness and im left with out a place to train. Not being impressed with karate in my area and for all the reasons I laid out to Dan, I figured WTH ill give them a shot.

There was just something about it that felt good. I like that their was a solid weapons system in place covering most of my areas of interest. From swords to spears and sticks and bows and knives and even gun defense. LOL I cant wait to learn the throwing weapons just for the pure fun of them.

Fair enough, really.

Chris can you recommend any books and other things I can read and watch that can further help my knowledge of the art im getting into?

Books are good supplementary aids, as are videos, so they can be good to get you into the mindset and mentality... but, to be honest, I'd recommend more than anything else just listening to your teacher right now. Most of the resources make a lot more sense with some (physical) frames of reference.

I was hoping you guys could help me with some thing. I was trying to find videos of Bujinkan kicking techniques. Im trying to find videos so I can start working on that odd front kick. Its so different then the MT and karate front kicks im used to. It starts off with the leg swinging straight, and it doesn't chamber until the end of the swing. Then it push's out. It is a push kick. He described it like a rock on a string.

I have yet to find any good Youtube videos of it. Hoping you can help.

Yeah... same thing. Talk to your teacher. The only clip I know of that covers "Ninjutsu kicks" does such a bad job of it, including adding kicks that have no place in the system, that I don't want to recommend anything in case it leads you back to it, ha!

Thank you for the name drops Brian. Ill look them up. You are correct, in that I should ask the instructor. I did infact do just that. I spent 45minutes talking about the art with him. His goal is to get 15th before Soke Hatsumi retires. He just wants to pass on a quality martial art that people can defend them selves with and some good life lessons as well. He did his best to explain how the technical progression works. I understand it a lot better. Some thing called Shu Ha RI. Right now im at Shu. Later ill be at the Ha, then later through diligent study RI. I have been reading things by SOKE Hatsumi and my new instructor, they both mentioned that the RI part usually starts around 5th bb, or godan I think. Which makes sense.

Not quite... but it's a large topic, and way above where you need to be thinking right now. Suffice to say that it becomes far more circular than linear.

Shu Ha Ri is a new concept for me, but not new if that makes sense. My former mma training was kinda like a fast tracked Shu ha ri. Just I didn't spend enough time in Shu or Ha.

Hmm... no, that's not correct. But, as I said, this is a large conversation, and well above the paygrade here... What you did in your MMA training was to learn a mechanical technique, then apply it in a free-response/free training method. That ain't Shu Ha Ri... in fact, if we were to apply such terminology, it's very much Shu. At best.

My new instructor likes to teach variations of everything. So that you can still use a technique even if your not in the proper space to do it.

Constant variations (henka) are very much a hallmark of the Bujinkan. It has good and bad points, really... if it works for you, great.

I only have few questions left regarding this art. My main question is how does this art pressure test its self at higher levels. I forgot to ask that question in our conversation. Can you guys enlighten me about how a good BBT school pressure tests its students skills?

How the art is pressure tested comes down to the instructor at the time, really. There is no single method, or even a consistent method used. As with much of this, if you want to know how it's trained/tested at your new dojo, you need to ask the instructor there.

Other then that, Im at the point were I have no real need to ask technical questions about such and such a technique. I have only to train, and I intend to train my *** off.

Good. Listen to what you're told, of course.

I do know this. I intend to use my mma skills to help my new friends In there training. Being a Good tori is important to me. If I can provide someone who can throw reasonably good boxing/mma punch's and kicks or them to practice against im happy to provide that.

Hmm... that I'd be less supportive of, honestly. You're there to learn how things are done in that school, not to "help the students". Listen and follow what you're told. Of course, if you're training a technique, and the instructor wants an "MMA-style" attack, go for it... but, unless that is specifically asked for, I'd suggest learning how it's done there as your priority. Oh, and a small terminology point, "tori" (literally: taker [of the technique]) is the person who performs the technique... Uke (literally: receiver [of the technique]) is the term for the "attacking" side, or the one who has the technique performed on them.

Im getting shredded on Traditional fighting arts forum. They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts, and one guy claims to have studied it for 2.5 years and then went on to arma and found it to be better. Saying he came back and challenged the instructor and he couldn't touch him. They are all using my mma against me, saying that because they don't free spar its ineffective. Im probably going to have to sign off that forum, its causing doubts in my mind.

I know what I saw, I saw a good program. Taught by a good person.

Screw them..

Send Dan here. I'll happily pull him to pieces. He's not in a position to comment or advise.

Now, to this.

As I stated before Chris you are a really knowledgeable practitioner and you do know your history of the Takumatsuden Arts very, very well. However, you are not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) nor a Budo Taijutsu exponent. Not being current in Budo Taijutsu and a direct connection with Soke (through an instructor or yourself) hinders anyone's ability to fully convey everything correctly. Because of this there could be misinterpretation. (particularly in regards to training technique) It is no different than myself in that while I have a connection and I do train in Budo Taijutsu and am a current member. I simply cannot give every correct answer either as it is not the only system that I study. I can give pretty good answers and I can research with people who absolutely know the correct answer. (because I am connected) Yet I am not an expert on everything Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan or the Takumatsuden Arts! I will leave that to others who are Michael Asuncion, Phil Legare, Don Roley, Doug Wilson, Dale Seago, Paul Richardson, (many more westerners I just listed a few) and of course the Japanese Shihan and Hatsumi himself. Just clarifying where anyone training in the Bujinkan should get their information.

Frankly, Brian, this is hypocritical and downright insulting. In one thread (here) you're telling me that, despite having over 2 decades in these arts, including being a part of the Bujinkan for a number of years, having very close associations with members of the Bujinkan and other X-Kans, as well as having connections to other branches of some of the Ryu taught there, not only do I have, as you say, a lot of knowledge of the history of these arts (here's a clue, Brian, I know a hell of a lot more than just the histories here...), you (and others) have a need to negate what I say with comments like "his advice is not always spot on", or the above comments. In other words, you're saying that, despite two decades plus of direct contact and involvement, because my organization is no longer part of a group that has no consistency anyway, my comments don't have weight? I also note that when such things are said (by yourself here, by others in other places), there is never any actual contradiction or correction of anything I say... no negation of it, no argument, just a need to say that I'm not in the Bujinkan, so don't worry about what I say...? Seems rather pointless... if I'm wrong, point it out. If not, the idea that I'm not in the Bujinkan doesn't enter into it.

Then, in another thread (the one on Musashi), you're telling me that you know what your opinion is of Musashi (and what you call the "legend" surrounding him), which you got from people who have never studied Musashi, his art, or anything else related, hell, in one case, a friend who isn't even a martial arts practitioner of any form who gets his opinion listened to because he's Japanese (?!?), and therefore your opinion is more weighted, and you'll listen to your guys more than the people actually involved in Musashi's art and legacy? Seriously? I can't be giving correct information because I'm not part of the Bujinkan, but you won't listen to people who are connected to Musashi's legacy because you know better? Honestly, that's garbage.

Oh, and for the record, there are some small and large issues with a number of the names you listed...

Having said the above that certainly does not mean that either you or I can comment as we certainly have wisdom and or knowledge in this area. Just that as with everything there are experts and then there are the real experts!

And there's the false diplomacy again... but, frankly, garbage. The implication that, unless you're one of the people you mention, you can't have any idea what's going on is ludicrous, unrealistic, and insulting. To be frank, it's very easy to know what's going on with the Bujinkan.

In KFrames position his current instructor in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu specifically is in the best position to answer any an all of his questions. (particularly as there is a less likelihood of misinterpretation talking with someone in person than online) I then would encourage him to slowly purchase Books and DVD's over time written by Hatsumi to get even a better understanding of this system. If history is what he is looking for Paul Richardson wrote a book that is a good start. Technique wise stick with the Books and DVD's written by Hatsumi Sensei and you cannot go wrong. Of course we can also give him advise here but the above is better than anything you or I can give him!

Actually, there's quite a few ways to go wrong with Hatsumi's books... and even more ways with the books. And if you want to know where that piece of information comes from, look to your list above....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Chris,

Do not try to hijack this thread like the Musashi thread. The fact is with the Bujinkan and Budo Taijusut correctly it is important to be current and learning what is coming from the Hombu Dojo. I am sorry that you cannot see this. I am sure your teacher in Australia would feel the exact same thing regarding his system that he teaches. If a past student came and started teaching they might be out of touch. I know with what I do it would be that way as well.

No false humility here. I actually mean exactly what I say in regards to your knowledge. You are very spot on in many circumstances and I think you are very knowledgeable. (ie. smart) I just don't buy into the myth, legend of Musashi. (which is another thread and not this one) One we have more than hashed over!!!