Okay, this might take a bit...
Chris, Thank you for taking time to respond. I didn't know that Goju was a modern style. You mentioned 3 schools don't get taught much. I had read that those schools were things like castle building and other period centric material. I could have sworn read that one of those styles dealt with espionage and masquerading and map skills and water skills.
Right. Firstly, Goju Ryu (Okinawan) is fairly traditional, Goju Kai (Japanese) a little more modern (a generation or two between them, with some questions about how much Goju Ryu was learned by Goju Kai's founder, but that's another discussion entirely), however what Dan does is takes some Goju, some Taiji, some other stuff, some made-up weapons use (that he calls traditional... that usage of Jo was a damn joke, and nothing like Japanese usage, let alone traditional), creating a modern eclectic system... in fact, far more than the Bujinkan or any other of the Ninjutsu organizations are. He's really not that informed on what traditional arts, or even Japanese arts, are actually like... at one point he lists what he considers a drawcard of the "Ninjutsu" systems being that there's "no long string of solo movements"... implying that that form of training is more "traditional". Uh, no, actually. It's a Chinese training device, transplanted to Okinawa, and found in modern Karate systems and related arts (such as TKD)... traditional Japanese arts are almost entirely shorter paired sequences. That's what traditional Japanese arts look like... Dan has no idea. And don't get me started on how off he was on Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu... being in Perth, I know exactly where he trained, and he understood nothing, and gets a lot wrong about the art itself.
What's strange about that whole situation is that, coming from MMA I actually got a lot out that class. As I told Dan it took me along time to figure out that I learn better in more "drills" centric environment. (which I know its kata that I was doing. For me I have always called that kind of thing drills.) I learned that I can not do anything slowly only fast and that I don't know the context of movements I was taught.(the modified karate I was studying) I think my MMA experience was both a help and curse. Some things I was doing instinctively and others were like a foreign language. Things they teach that I did normally was tuck the chin and cover cheek with shoulder/bicep.
Just a small aside, there's a world of difference between drills and (traditional Japanese) kata, despite the superficial similarities between the two. Drills are simply skill builders (learn this footwork, develop your timing, work on your targeting, and so on), whereas kata are about teaching a tactical response. Ideally, you can use a drill to work on/learn a new kick/block/throw etc, but with a kata, you are learning a tactical response that happens to use that kick/block/throw.
I can see the principals behind a lot of what I was show. Mostly basic things like the circular checks and the body movement while doing the punching drill.
Good. The principles are the important thing.
I had a feeling that his appraisal of their kata drilling system was flawed, because of all the things you and I have discussed, kata was one of them. A long time ago you showed me how Traditional Japanese Kata were different, and how they trained was different. I went into that class with those thoughts in the back of my mind. One thing I was surprised at was the solo kata/forms. I didn't know they did that. I thought that BBT had Partnered Kata? I cant remember the names of the kata but there was 5 basic ones that all fed into each other. I rather liked them more then what I have seen of the karate systems kata.
The vast majority of kata in the Bujinkan arts are paired, the Sanshin no Kata (the series of five, taken from Gyokko Ryu, representing five elements: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void) are the best known exception. It sounds like you also did some of the Kihon Happo (fundamental techniques, also taken from the Gyokko Ryu, although there are some dojo that teach variations that come from other Ryu, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu or Kukishin Ryu), specifically Omote Gyaku, and possibly Omote Gyaku Ura Gyaku Henka... those are more along the lines of the paired kata.
From what I was told the advanced class is higher speed then the lower level class I was at. With more pressure and I would assume more complicated things. I know they have a regularly schedualed randori class. Can you tell me what I can expect from a BBT randori class? Say how would it differ or someone that is a 8th or 9th kyu vs someone that is a higher kyu like a 3rd-1st and above?
Nope. Can't tell you at all. And the main reason is that, particularly in the Bujinkan, there really isn't anything like a "standard" approach or structure... so the way it's structured there is based on the preferences and ideas of the instructor at that dojo. I know some that turn it into semi-MMA... others are closer to Aikido-style randori... some like to segment individual skill sets (say, throws, making it like Judo, or striking, or ground work, or weapon defence, or anything, really)... some don't do anything at all.
I wonder how the training looks like in the advanced class. 8th kyu and above. Dan has a problem with the nature of the beginners class being so slow. IDK I agree with the instructor who invited me to train there. He wanted the beginner class to be about perfecting the basics and technical skills. Like I said. I actually got a lot out of just that slow low class. Cant wait to see what further training does for me.
Dan's not in the class. Ignore whatever he has a problem with, he doesn't have any real frame of reference to make comments.
What about his assessment of the Ninjato sword? It kind of makes sense to me. Wouldn't a ninja just get a shorter more straight katana? I would imagine such things existed. As was noted in the wiki article. I thought that ninja were also high ranking in society like the Samurai were? If that is the case they can afford to have a custom sword made.
The straight "ninja-to" has been known to be a fallacy for a long time... there's no real evidence for it existing, and there's no historical reason for it to have existed. The Togakure Ryu does feature a specialist blade, which is shorter than a "typical" (whatever that is) katana, but it's still a katana, it's still curved, and so on. The idea of a specialist sizing weapon isn't unique to this school, of course, many schools have had something unique to them over history, that just happens to be the one that Togakure Ryu uses. But you won't find a "straight ninja-to" in any legit schools... it's only found in the bogus, movie-based ones, such as the "Koga Ryu" schools. And, for the record, the only book by Hatsumi that mentions or refers to the weapon was ghost written by Hayes... Hatsumi didn't say anything of the kind... and the picture in the book is not a straight blade. So his comments about ignoring Hatsumi based on a wiki article that references him is, well, not exactly a fair statement.
Of course, reading from there, Dan goes in completely the wrong direction. He starts talking about the stick methods found in the Bujinkan, and states (in reference to Hatsumi and the Bojutsu of the Bujinkan) that: "He may well have founded a half-decent stick fighting discipline, but given that he almost certainly hasn't fought someone in a real battle with a staff (unlike the creators of the original staff systems of Okinawa/Japan)". Frankly, this just shows that he really is in no position to argue about the validity of anything. The staff work in the Bujinkan comes from the Kukishinden Ryu... which, despite the validy issues with other arts, is very much a historically verified art. It exists in a number of branches both within and without the "Ninjutsu" schools, and is most famous for it's bojutsu. Of everything in the Bujinkan, the two most unimpeachable aspects are the Jujutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden Ryu. They are as legit as it gets in these areas, and Hatsumi created/founded nothing there. And, again, let's just remind ourselves of what we're referring to here...
(Dan's "Jo" work... interestingly, in a lot of his videos, he claims to be teaching Aikijo... which was created by Ueshiba, who never used a Jo in a "real battle"... but learned Bojutsu from some Kukishinden Ryu practitioners... hmm... but, for the record, it looks nothing like what is seen here. The distance is terrible, there's no power, no understanding of the weapon, it's just being swung around with no real concern. Not impressed)
(Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu, here demonstrated by the Genbukan)
What is funny is the transition from mma to BBT. I never saw it coming. I thought I would MMA my way through all my martial needs. Then my mma gym drops the adult class and the other one folds up do to familial sickness and im left with out a place to train. Not being impressed with karate in my area and for all the reasons I laid out to Dan, I figured WTH ill give them a shot.
There was just something about it that felt good. I like that their was a solid weapons system in place covering most of my areas of interest. From swords to spears and sticks and bows and knives and even gun defense. LOL I cant wait to learn the throwing weapons just for the pure fun of them.
Fair enough, really.
Chris can you recommend any books and other things I can read and watch that can further help my knowledge of the art im getting into?
Books are good supplementary aids, as are videos, so they can be good to get you into the mindset and mentality... but, to be honest, I'd recommend more than anything else just listening to your teacher right now. Most of the resources make a lot more sense with some (physical) frames of reference.
I was hoping you guys could help me with some thing. I was trying to find videos of Bujinkan kicking techniques. Im trying to find videos so I can start working on that odd front kick. Its so different then the MT and karate front kicks im used to. It starts off with the leg swinging straight, and it doesn't chamber until the end of the swing. Then it push's out. It is a push kick. He described it like a rock on a string.
I have yet to find any good Youtube videos of it. Hoping you can help.
Yeah... same thing. Talk to your teacher. The only clip I know of that covers "Ninjutsu kicks" does such a bad job of it, including adding kicks that have no place in the system, that I don't want to recommend anything in case it leads you back to it, ha!
Thank you for the name drops Brian. Ill look them up. You are correct, in that I should ask the instructor. I did infact do just that. I spent 45minutes talking about the art with him. His goal is to get 15th before Soke Hatsumi retires. He just wants to pass on a quality martial art that people can defend them selves with and some good life lessons as well. He did his best to explain how the technical progression works. I understand it a lot better. Some thing called Shu Ha RI. Right now im at Shu. Later ill be at the Ha, then later through diligent study RI. I have been reading things by SOKE Hatsumi and my new instructor, they both mentioned that the RI part usually starts around 5th bb, or godan I think. Which makes sense.
Not quite... but it's a large topic, and way above where you need to be thinking right now. Suffice to say that it becomes far more circular than linear.
Shu Ha Ri is a new concept for me, but not new if that makes sense. My former mma training was kinda like a fast tracked Shu ha ri. Just I didn't spend enough time in Shu or Ha.
Hmm... no, that's not correct. But, as I said, this is a large conversation, and well above the paygrade here... What you did in your MMA training was to learn a mechanical technique, then apply it in a free-response/free training method. That ain't Shu Ha Ri... in fact, if we were to apply such terminology, it's very much Shu. At best.
My new instructor likes to teach variations of everything. So that you can still use a technique even if your not in the proper space to do it.
Constant variations (henka) are very much a hallmark of the Bujinkan. It has good and bad points, really... if it works for you, great.
I only have few questions left regarding this art. My main question is how does this art pressure test its self at higher levels. I forgot to ask that question in our conversation. Can you guys enlighten me about how a good BBT school pressure tests its students skills?
How the art is pressure tested comes down to the instructor at the time, really. There is no single method, or even a consistent method used. As with much of this, if you want to know how it's trained/tested at your new dojo, you need to ask the instructor there.
Other then that, Im at the point were I have no real need to ask technical questions about such and such a technique. I have only to train, and I intend to train my *** off.
Good. Listen to what you're told, of course.
I do know this. I intend to use my mma skills to help my new friends In there training. Being a Good tori is important to me. If I can provide someone who can throw reasonably good boxing/mma punch's and kicks or them to practice against im happy to provide that.
Hmm... that I'd be less supportive of, honestly. You're there to learn how things are done in that school, not to "help the students". Listen and follow what you're told. Of course, if you're training a technique, and the instructor wants an "MMA-style" attack, go for it... but, unless that is specifically asked for, I'd suggest learning how it's done there as your priority. Oh, and a small terminology point, "tori" (literally: taker [of the technique]) is the person who performs the technique... Uke (literally: receiver [of the technique]) is the term for the "attacking" side, or the one who has the technique performed on them.
Im getting shredded on Traditional fighting arts forum. They are making claims about Tanemura making up 5 of the arts, and one guy claims to have studied it for 2.5 years and then went on to arma and found it to be better. Saying he came back and challenged the instructor and he couldn't touch him. They are all using my mma against me, saying that because they don't free spar its ineffective. Im probably going to have to sign off that forum, its causing doubts in my mind.
I know what I saw, I saw a good program. Taught by a good person.
Screw them..
Send Dan here. I'll happily pull him to pieces. He's not in a position to comment or advise.
Now, to this.
As I stated before Chris you are a really knowledgeable practitioner and you do know your history of the Takumatsuden Arts very, very well. However, you are not a Bujinkan practitioner (currently) nor a Budo Taijutsu exponent. Not being current in Budo Taijutsu and a direct connection with Soke (through an instructor or yourself) hinders anyone's ability to fully convey everything correctly. Because of this there could be misinterpretation. (particularly in regards to training technique) It is no different than myself in that while I have a connection and I do train in Budo Taijutsu and am a current member. I simply cannot give every correct answer either as it is not the only system that I study. I can give pretty good answers and I can research with people who absolutely know the correct answer. (because I am connected) Yet I am not an expert on everything Budo Taijutsu, the Bujinkan or the Takumatsuden Arts! I will leave that to others who are Michael Asuncion, Phil Legare, Don Roley, Doug Wilson, Dale Seago, Paul Richardson, (many more westerners I just listed a few) and of course the Japanese Shihan and Hatsumi himself. Just clarifying where anyone training in the Bujinkan should get their information.
Frankly, Brian, this is hypocritical and downright insulting. In one thread (here) you're telling me that, despite having over 2 decades in these arts, including being a part of the Bujinkan for a number of years, having very close associations with members of the Bujinkan and other X-Kans, as well as having connections to other branches of some of the Ryu taught there, not only do I have, as you say, a lot of knowledge of the history of these arts (here's a clue, Brian, I know a hell of a lot more than just the histories here...), you (and others) have a need to negate what I say with comments like "his advice is not always spot on", or the above comments. In other words, you're saying that, despite two decades plus of direct contact and involvement, because my organization is no longer part of a group that has no consistency anyway, my comments don't have weight? I also note that when such things are said (by yourself here, by others in other places), there is never any actual contradiction or correction of anything I say... no negation of it, no argument, just a need to say that I'm not in the Bujinkan, so don't worry about what I say...? Seems rather pointless... if I'm wrong, point it out. If not, the idea that I'm not in the Bujinkan doesn't enter into it.
Then, in another thread (the one on Musashi), you're telling me that you know what your opinion is of Musashi (and what you call the "legend" surrounding him), which you got from people who have never studied Musashi, his art, or anything else related, hell, in one case, a friend who isn't even a martial arts practitioner of any form who gets his opinion listened to because he's Japanese (?!?), and therefore your opinion is more weighted, and you'll listen to your guys more than the people actually involved in Musashi's art and legacy? Seriously? I can't be giving correct information because I'm not part of the Bujinkan, but you won't listen to people who are connected to Musashi's legacy because you know better? Honestly, that's garbage.
Oh, and for the record, there are some small and large issues with a number of the names you listed...
Having said the above that certainly does not mean that either you or I can comment as we certainly have wisdom and or knowledge in this area. Just that as with everything there are experts and then there are the real experts!
And there's the false diplomacy again... but, frankly, garbage. The implication that, unless you're one of the people you mention, you can't have any idea what's going on is ludicrous, unrealistic, and insulting. To be frank, it's very easy to know what's going on with the Bujinkan.
In KFrames position his current instructor in the Bujinkan and Budo Taijutsu specifically is in the best position to answer any an all of his questions. (particularly as there is a less likelihood of misinterpretation talking with someone in person than online) I then would encourage him to slowly purchase Books and DVD's over time written by Hatsumi to get even a better understanding of this system. If history is what he is looking for Paul Richardson wrote a book that is a good start. Technique wise stick with the Books and DVD's written by Hatsumi Sensei and you cannot go wrong. Of course we can also give him advise here but the above is better than anything you or I can give him!
Actually, there's quite a few ways to go wrong with Hatsumi's books... and even more ways with the books. And if you want to know where that piece of information comes from, look to your list above....
