Need some information on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[Kframe]

Chris parker thank you for taking time to help me. Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder.

Ya we did a little kihon happo. It was Omote Gyaku and then that done in the opposite direction, with a arm bar takedown.(kinda cool to, nice and simple. At least I thought it was)


Can you fill me in on Shu Ha Ri as it relates to martial arts? I get the first part learn the technique, but the wiki says the next part is leave the technique then destroy it. I was trying to think of a way I could apply that to some mma skill I have but I cant really think of a way to apply say the defensive inside fighting block or double arm block from boxing.

That video of the Genbukan Bojutsu was cool. Quick question though was he just intentionally hitting the wooden sword or was the guy with the wooden sword blocking shots and they would have hit him had he not blocked them?

I have to remember not to attach so much importance to how people on the net feel about what im doing. I put way to much faith in one mans opinion. I think its time to end that little personal hangup I have. Time to experience things my self.

 

[gregtca]

Kramer , this may help ,

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...uvwpspy70xqBj2B3Oe5Vhtw&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dGI

 

[gapjumper]

Just a small aside, there's a world of difference between drills and (traditional Japanese) kata, despite the superficial similarities between the two. Drills are simply skill builders (learn this footwork, develop your timing, work on your targeting, and so on), whereas kata are about teaching a tactical response. Ideally, you can use a drill to work on/learn a new kick/block/throw etc, but with a kata, you are learning a tactical response that happens to use that kick/block/throw.

Indeed. It seems that some very basic concepts completely elude some people...

The vast majority of kata in the Bujinkan arts are paired, the Sanshin no Kata (the series of five, taken from Gyokko Ryu, representing five elements: Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Void) are the best known exception. It sounds like you also did some of the Kihon Happo (fundamental techniques, also taken from the Gyokko Ryu, although there are some dojo that teach variations that come from other Ryu, such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu or Kukishin Ryu), specifically Omote Gyaku, and possibly Omote Gyaku Ura Gyaku Henka... those are more along the lines of the paired kata.

Although...sanshin is not really the exception as it has paired and solo parts.

Dan's not in the class. Ignore whatever he has a problem with, he doesn't have any real frame of reference to make comments.

Yes. I am unsure why this guy is so vocal on this topic. The problem is, by shouting so loud, he only makes it abundantly obvious he has zero knowledge of the things he talks about. Maybe he saw some bad school? Maybe he is unsure of his own lineage legitimacy, and so needs to point fingers so that nobody looks at him??

Of course, reading from there, Dan goes in completely the wrong direction. He starts talking about the stick methods found in the Bujinkan, and states (in reference to Hatsumi and the Bojutsu of the Bujinkan) that: "He may well have founded a half-decent stick fighting discipline, but given that he almost certainly hasn't fought someone in a real battle with a staff (unlike the creators of the original staff systems of Okinawa/Japan)". Frankly, this just shows that he really is in no position to argue about the validity of anything. The staff work in the Bujinkan comes from the Kukishinden Ryu... which, despite the validy issues with other arts, is very much a historically verified art. It exists in a number of branches both within and without the "Ninjutsu" schools, and is most famous for it's bojutsu. Of everything in the Bujinkan, the two most unimpeachable aspects are the Jujutsu of Takagi Yoshin Ryu, and the Bojutsu of the Kukishinden Ryu. They are as legit as it gets in these areas, and Hatsumi created/founded nothing there. And, again, let's just remind ourselves of what we're referring to here...

Now I am thinking he may have been told this by someone else...nobody could get facts so wrong from first-hand knowledge, surely! That really is rather embarrassing.

Hmm... no, that's not correct. But, as I said, this is a large conversation, and well above the paygrade here... What you did in your MMA training was to learn a mechanical technique, then apply it in a free-response/free training method. That ain't Shu Ha Ri... in fact, if we were to apply such terminology, it's very much Shu. At best.

Agreed.

And, Kframe, I really wouldn't worry about this for a long time yet.

Send Dan here. I'll happily pull him to pieces. He's not in a position to comment or advise.

I'll make the popcorn :drinky:

 

[gapjumper]

To be frank, it's very easy to know what's going on with the Bujinkan.

I would HAVE to disagree with you there Chris. Even from the inside, it is all smoke and mirrors.

As it should be.

 

[Kframe]

I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.

Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?

 

[gapjumper]

I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.

Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?

Nothing as far as I know. However people may have learned new parts/aspects over time, and people think it is new. That doesn't mean it is new.

Without seeing the "groundwork" you mention it's hard to know if you are seeing stuff from the Bujinkan ryu-ha (which is certainly not new), or something else from another source that the teacher is showing...


Maybe you could give an example of something that you have seen said is new that did not used to exist in the Bujinkan?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder.

It's not a matter of throwing your leg over your shoulder with force at all. You should be able to do the backwards roll in super slow motion by curling yourself into a very tight ball and adjusting the angle of your head and shoulders.

I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.

Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?

I trained in the Bujinkan from about 1984-1994 including regular classes, seminars with high-ranked teachers, reading every book and watching every video available. In that time I never saw any real groundwork or heard any rumors of it even existing. Hatsumi had a big hardback book out in Japanese which included a few oddball techniques from the ground, but no mount escapes or guard passing.

I've kept an curious eye on developments in the Bujinkan since I moved on and in the last decade or so I've started seeing some Bujinkan practitioners teaching groundfighting techniques. Some may claim that the techniques were in the system all along and , just coincidentally, were only revealed around the same time that BJJ and MMA became popular. The same sorts of claims have been made by some karate & kung fu instructors who never taught any ground techniques until the same time period. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Tony,

Hatsumi Sensei has shown some ground work and even has a DVD out with some ground technique though the overall dvd was not geared towards grappling. (though the dvd escapes me at this moment) Nor would you say it looked like BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc.

In my opinion which is not the norm though I believe that the best way to learn grappling is from a system that is geared directly towards it like BJJ. I also feel that BJJ is a great system to train alongside Budo Taijutsu. However, I know I am in the minority on this. Simon Yeo in the UK trains in the Bujinkan and also does BJJ. There are actually a good amount of people in the Bujinkan also cross training in other systems. Though they typically start after having trained in Budo Taijutsu for quite a while. Daniel Weidman has extensive training with Gokar Chivnchyan. He taught me this sweet Heel Hook when he stopped by my house:

One thing that is for sure is that Hatsumi Sensei continues to grow as a martial practitioner and if you are not training with him or someone who regularly trains with him then you will miss the feel of his training and also where he is taking the Bujinkan. I think this is similar to training with any martial practitioner who is working hard to improve.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One thing that is for sure is that Hatsumi Sensei continues to grow as a martial practitioner and if you are not training with him or someone who regularly trains with him then you will miss the feel of his training and also where he is taking the Bujinkan. I think this is similar to training with any martial practitioner who is working hard to improve.

I think it's clear that BBT is Hatsumi's modern synthesis of everything that he has learned and that it continues to evolve. I have no problems with that. If a practitioner wants to keep up with where Hatsumi is taking the art, then he/she should definitely train with an instructor who has an ongoing connection to the grandmaster.

What I do have a problem with is people taking Hatsumi's latest invention and insisting that it has been in this ancient tradition for centuries or that you can't know what is in the 9 traditional disciplines unless you maintain that permanent connection to Hatsumi. Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu for a total of 15 years on weekends. At this point there are a number of students who have trained with Hatsumi for much longer than that (including some of those who have broken away). If Hatsumi is still putting out new techniques, then either he is a terrible teacher who has been holding back information from his students for decades or else it's new material that he has created. I'm inclined to think it's the latter.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Tony,

I think everyone evolves in their training and teaching. I know I do and I am sure that you do as well. Why would it be any different for anyone else!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Brian - I have no disagreement with that. If Hatsumi wants to add brand-new material to his art, that's fine with me. If Hatsumi has new insights into the original material he learned from Takamatsu, that's cool as well.

My only complaint comes if Hatsumi reveals new material decades after Takamatsu's death and his followers claim that said material was in the original curriculum that Takamatsu taught. (For the record, I have no idea whether Hatsumi himself has claimed the new techniques come from Takamatsu or not.)

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have not heard anyone claiming anything like that. Certainly not from Hatsumi Sensei.

 

[Kframe]

I have been thinking I think I know were his basic ground defense came from. I forgot but on his website he lists that he has been a Infantry soldier for the last 11 years. During class he mentioned army MACP. Which while going over it online I discovered it amounts to about a white belt to blue belt bjj program similar to the Gracie Academy Gracie combatives. https://www.gracieuniversity.com/course.aspx?enc=AbyD5UD1jYKJsZAlGSK5IQ== I knew some of the ground stuff looked familiar.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Kframe,

A while back you asked a question about the bojutsu video that Shihan Wright was demonstrating from the Genbukan. The uke is blocking the strikes, there is one part where Shihan Wright purposely strikes the bokken in one of the patterns. The pattern where he thrusted and hit the Do protector, he actually cracked and put a whole, lol. Good luck with your training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Kframe]

So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol. Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing. I honestly cant wait to get into it. Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school. I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.

 

[jks9199]

So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol. Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing. I honestly cant wait to get into it. Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school. I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.

Your first sentence gets the idea of the paired kata, at first. Unlike a lot of the one-step sparring type of things you see, where the attacker feeds a technique that's not in range and wouldn't hurt the defender, if these sorts of kata are done properly, there's a real chance of being hit. (This extends to drilling, too, and I'm not saying that there aren't people doing one-step sparring in a way that they may well be hit...) At the beginning level, everything will stay on script. But as the skill and familiarity with the technique increases, the partner (usually senior) will change the feed, or take advantage of weaknesses and errors in execution, forcing the receiver to adapt to the change. That's where the pressure testing for this training method comes in...

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris,

Do not try to hijack this thread like the Musashi thread. The fact is with the Bujinkan and Budo Taijusut correctly it is important to be current and learning what is coming from the Hombu Dojo. I am sorry that you cannot see this. I am sure your teacher in Australia would feel the exact same thing regarding his system that he teaches. If a past student came and started teaching they might be out of touch. I know with what I do it would be that way as well.

Garbage, Brian. In one thread, you're saying that you're "open minded" because you're listening to people unrelated to the actual subject matter, therefore you have a better idea of what you think reality is, here you tell me that, despite very, very close association, because I'm not currently connected to one organization, my comments aren't to be taken as informed. That's damn hypocritical. I don't claim to be teaching Budo Taijutsu (and, I'm going to be completely blunt here, I'm damn happy to not be), nor do I claim to be a part of the Bujinkan. I do, however, have experience and exposure to the Bujinkan (and related organizations, which helps understand the Bujinkan far more, honestly), and far more, which does place me in a position to be able to answer questions here... in some cases, far more accurately than you can, I'd say. It's just important to recognize what those cases are. I'd also point out that your comments came before I even came here to post anything... and nothing I've said has been contradicted or questioned (other than one case, which I'm going to respond to later... hey, Gapjumper!)... so what the point of saying I'm not part of the Bujinkan was, when the information I present (again, up to that point, there hadn't been any at all) fits what is known.

This isn't hijacking, it's dealing with your comments about me, and my ability to add to the conversation, Brian.

No false humility here. I actually mean exactly what I say in regards to your knowledge. You are very spot on in many circumstances and I think you are very knowledgeable. (ie. smart) I just don't buy into the myth, legend of Musashi. (which is another thread and not this one) One we have more than hashed over!!!

False diplomacy, Brian. You basically said "We all have good things to say, but you're (my) comments aren't really to be taken as correct or accurate". That's very false diplomacy, really. The Musashi conversation was tangental, and not related to my comment there.

Right, we'll get back to the rest of this.

Chris parker thank you for taking time to help me. Of the 2 Ukemi Gata we did, I was able to do the the forward roll but the rear one was impossible lol. Just couldn't get enough force behind my leg when I threw it up over my shoulder.

Ha, as Tony said, it's not about force with the leg... if you want to focus on strength somewhere, look to your core... situps are your friend... kinda...

Ya we did a little kihon happo. It was Omote Gyaku and then that done in the opposite direction, with a arm bar takedown.(kinda cool to, nice and simple. At least I thought it was)

Cool. I was actually teaching Omote Gyaku this week... a few variations from a couple of the Ryu, lots of fun.

Can you fill me in on Shu Ha Ri as it relates to martial arts? I get the first part learn the technique, but the wiki says the next part is leave the technique then destroy it. I was trying to think of a way I could apply that to some mma skill I have but I cant really think of a way to apply say the defensive inside fighting block or double arm block from boxing.

For an explanation, no-one says it better than Wayne Muromoto, so I would link you to his blog... except Greg has beaten me to it! So, uh, here, what Greg said:

Kramer , this may help ,

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...uvwpspy70xqBj2B3Oe5Vhtw&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dGI

I will add (regarding the second half of your comment) that thinking about different ways to apply things is really not what it's about at all... this is the issue with doing variations for variations sake (henka [variations] are not "ri"... although some seem to think it is). The "ha" aspect is more about finding your way of expressing the methods of the system... which is a subtle but giant difference... as many things are.

That video of the Genbukan Bojutsu was cool. Quick question though was he just intentionally hitting the wooden sword or was the guy with the wooden sword blocking shots and they would have hit him had he not blocked them?

Troy has answered this one already, so I'll just add that what is seen isn't always what there is... not all of the blocks are always blocks... not all of the targets are actually the targets... different systems have different methods that they use, finding someone who knows what's what is part of the search...

So had the uke not blocked most of those strikes he would have been hit for real? Well tapped as im sure he would not have killed him lol. Now I have only watched a few videos but from what I have seen I don't see much in the way of solo form bo twirling that I see a lot of other styles doing. I honestly cant wait to get into it. Though I will likely have to let go of my desire to do a cage fight. As it does not fit with the beliefs and values of the style or school. I hope that some day I can be tested. Physically and technically.

When kata is done properly, yes, he would have been hit for real. That's a big part of the point (as JKS indicated). When it comes to the "solo bo twirling", what should be remembered is that Okinawan and Chinese methods feature more solo work, Japanese tend towards paired forms.

But, yeah, we're not geared up for cage fights... a fairly different context.

I have to remember not to attach so much importance to how people on the net feel about what im doing. I put way to much faith in one mans opinion. I think its time to end that little personal hangup I have. Time to experience things my self.

Ha, good plan.

Indeed. It seems that some very basic concepts completely elude some people...

I'm not so sure I'd class it as a basic concept... fundamental, sure, but not necessarily basic... eh, semantics...

Although...sanshin is not really the exception as it has paired and solo parts.

Oh, I'm aware of that... however, it's the exception in that the rest of the syllabus is almost entirely paired kata (no solo form - although, of course, you can train them solo should you wish, they're not designed that way).

Yes. I am unsure why this guy is so vocal on this topic. The problem is, by shouting so loud, he only makes it abundantly obvious he has zero knowledge of the things he talks about. Maybe he saw some bad school? Maybe he is unsure of his own lineage legitimacy, and so needs to point fingers so that nobody looks at him??

There's a lot of indicators I see, but no need to get too far into that...

Now I am thinking he may have been told this by someone else...nobody could get facts so wrong from first-hand knowledge, surely! That really is rather embarrassing.

Oh, words that come to my mind... hmm...

Agreed.

And, Kframe, I really wouldn't worry about this for a long time yet.

Honestly, there's a lot that I wouldn't worry about for a long time... the priority needs to be the guidance your instructor is giving you at this point... things will make more sense when you have more exposure. In many cases, this comes down to the idea of esoteric knowledge... in essence, esoteric knowledge is knowledge that can only be understood when you have some required knowledge/experience to refer to.

I'll make the popcorn :drinky:

Ha, well, we'll need to wait to see if he jumps over... as he's running his own forum, I don't think it's likely... especially considering the way he runs it.

I would HAVE to disagree with you there Chris. Even from the inside, it is all smoke and mirrors.

As it should be.

Hmm... honestly, it seems that way from the inside...

I am curious as just casually looking it appears as if the BBT has been evolving. In google searches I keep reading about how some things they do now were not done before. Things like the very basic ground work that it now has. I don't know the extent of its ground work but the instructor did demo some mount escapes(that were variations of things I have seen) and a guard pass.

Can anyone kinda give me a general over view of things that have changed or been added in the last say 10-15 years?

Honestly, that'd take quite a long time... and, frankly, it's not that relevant. As a current student, at this point it's more important what you get shown now.

Nothing as far as I know. However people may have learned new parts/aspects over time, and people think it is new. That doesn't mean it is new.

Without seeing the "groundwork" you mention it's hard to know if you are seeing stuff from the Bujinkan ryu-ha (which is certainly not new), or something else from another source that the teacher is showing...

And... which Ryu would you say has groundwork (ne waza) there? I'm not saying that ne waza hasn't been a part of the Bujinkan (Budo Taijutsu) for a while... but that also doesn't mean it's from any of the Ryu-ha...

Maybe you could give an example of something that you have seen said is new that did not used to exist in the Bujinkan?

I think that might depend on what is seen as being "in the Bujinkan"...

I have not heard anyone claiming anything like that. Certainly not from Hatsumi Sensei.

Really? I have... quite a bit....

 

[Kframe]

Thanks all for the help. Part of my problem with that rear roll is that my gut is in the way. I know the answer to that is to loose it. I am, its just going to take time. 100lbs down 100lbs to go.(no surgery either or drugs) I managed to do it once on my own, but I didn't end up facing in the same direction I ended up looking 90degrees to one side. Im starting to think there is a straight backwards roll as well, one that leaves you facing the same direction you started in.

I was thinking about shuhari. Thank you for the link. It seams like, it would be doing my boxing blocks with my own style, then using those principals to create my own covers. Sounds like a interesting project.

Chris, If I may ask, why did you leave the BBT? I know there can be great variation from instructor to instructor, and quality of students produced. Is it more of a inter BBT political thing then a technical problem with the syllabus? Im just curious, as just looking at the school I found, the instructor clearly knows what he is doing. Clearly is passionate. I get the impression that I manged to luck into a quality school.

 

[Chris Parker]

Thanks all for the help. Part of my problem with that rear roll is that my gut is in the way. I know the answer to that is to loose it. I am, its just going to take time. 100lbs down 100lbs to go.(no surgery either or drugs) I managed to do it once on my own, but I didn't end up facing in the same direction I ended up looking 90degrees to one side. Im starting to think there is a straight backwards roll as well, one that leaves you facing the same direction you started in.

Ha, yeah, the koho kaiten should have you ending facing the same direction as you started...

I was thinking about shuhari. Thank you for the link. It seams like, it would be doing my boxing blocks with my own style, then using those principals to create my own covers. Sounds like a interesting project.

Uh... no. That's closer to the "take some of this, put it with that, and create something new", not really anything to do with shu ha ri (and something that Wayne mentions in the blog as an error), but again, you're way too early into this to start worrying about it yet... esoteric knowledge and all that...

Chris, If I may ask, why did you leave the BBT? I know there can be great variation from instructor to instructor, and quality of students produced. Is it more of a inter BBT political thing then a technical problem with the syllabus? Im just curious, as just looking at the school I found, the instructor clearly knows what he is doing. Clearly is passionate. I get the impression that I manged to luck into a quality school.

From your descriptions, yeah, I'd say that you've found a good school... I quite like the descriptions you've given. With our leaving of the Bujinkan, that was a combination of a number of things, and I'm not getting into that publicly... although, if you're interested, I'm happy to PM the story to you. Just give me a little while, my messages are currently over-full... and I'm trying to see what I want to delete to make room to answer a couple of others first. Give it a couple of days, yeah?

 

[Kframe]

No problem, I understand.

Since Im not starting till November(got stuff to take care of first) I am practicing the 5 kata he showed me, and the basic punching drill and the rolls. The forward roll is no problem, I need more advice on the rear one. I tried to do it from my back and still same problem. It raining out, or id go out side and start flopping on the grass. I was told to try to roll over my right shoulder while raising my left leg over my right shoulder. I would like to at least beable to have this down when get to my second class..