Need more advice in cane fight practice

[geezer]

Is it coincidental?

The Chinese bang (wooden club) is so called because of the sound it makes, which is also why the Scandinavian, Icelandic, Old Norse banga, also means to pound and hammer. Like on a drum.

"Bang...bang...bang". "Banga banga banga". A lot of words come from the sounds that we associate with them. "Choo choo".

Gun/Gwan means something like "to beat many times with a tree". Makes sense to me.

Agreed. It's not necessarily "coincidence". In the case of "bang" appearing in separate, unrelated language families could due to the direct, iconic, onomatopoetic relationship of the sound to the word.

Many years ago (in the 1970s) when I took some college classes in linguistics, the role of onomatopoeia, rather than mere coincidence, as a source for such unrelated yet similar sounding words was still being debated. I have no idea if or how that discussion was resolved by academics.

 

[geezer]

Why stop it? Just let it run through a circle. That's faster and requires less energy than stopping and reversing direction.

Yes, and also retract and extend the cane as you strike in a continuing circular or figure eight pattern.

That is extending your arms, striking out in large circles toward your target, and then contracting to a small tight circle as you continue around past your target with the tip circling quickly behind you and then coming back forward into the next strike.

Watch how these guys recycle their energy while using a lot of circles and figure eights ...expanding and contracting the size of the circular strikes:

 

[Alan0354]

That is an improvement in terms of getting some hip power into your swings. Keep working on it, but you’re going in the right direction.

The other suggestion I made in my previous post was to let your hands be a little further apart. Just a few extra inches between your hands will help give you more control and leverage.

BTW, you don’t have to practice just casting or just swings with carry through. I would recommend you work on both, because each method can be helpful in the right situation.

Yes, the last few days, I am trying to practice in more flexible ways, I use casting and some straight swinging. I also incorporate poking to combine together.

Funny from reading the posts, I question whether some know what is CASTING. It is much more difficult than swinging in an arc and figure 8!!! It's not in the same league. I learned from videos on swinging an arc from one shoulder down and circle back to the opposite shoulder. Also the figure 8 swing. Those are so easy I got it in the first two months already. People need to try doing that outside of the dojo where there's nothing in the way.

How do I know it's important to know how to fight in surrounding with obstacles? BECAUSE I learned it the hard way. My living room is big than average already as shown in the videos, if I don't move the furniture back, I cannot swing like the typical Filipino stick fight. I would keep hitting the furniture accidentally. The worst is if you miss or hit something in the way accidentally, you have a good chance of the cane flying off. Thanks to Lamont Glass making the video for me, I really learn. I spent 5 months practicing so far.



Following is not writing to Tony Dismukes, it's to other people. If anyone disagree about casting, I would love to hear it:

I want to show this video again, I hope people will stop long enough to watch what is CASTING. It is NOT EASY!!! I truly believe this is the answer for real life fighting outside in real environment. It is a way to strike hard without a wild swing. Here is the video again:

It is NOT easy, but look at how hard Lamont Glass can hit. He is one of the founder of this site and he is an instructor of a school. Go check him out in this forum, he goes by "Blindside". It is like punching in close distance with control, you can hit hard, only thing is you need to practice a long time to get good at it. I am by no means good in Casting yet.

 

[Alan0354]

Check out Black Bird Training Group:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=blackbird+training+group+

Lamont Glass IS A MASTER OF STICKS.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, the last few days, I am trying to practice in more flexible ways, I use casting and some straight swinging. I also incorporate poking to combine together.

Funny from reading the posts, I question whether some know what is CASTING. It is much more difficult than swinging in an arc and figure 8!!! It's not in the same league. I learned from videos on swinging an arc from one shoulder down and circle back to the opposite shoulder. Also the figure 8 swing. Those are so easy I got it in the first two months already. People need to try doing that outside of the dojo where there's nothing in the way.

How do I know it's important to know how to fight in surrounding with obstacles? BECAUSE I learned it the hard way. My living room is big than average already as shown in the videos, if I don't move the furniture back, I cannot swing like the typical Filipino stick fight. I would keep hitting the furniture accidentally. The worst is if you miss or hit something in the way accidentally, you have a good chance of the cane flying off. Thanks to Lamont Glass making the video for me, I really learn. I spent 5 months practicing so far.



Following is not writing to Tony Dismukes, it's to other people. If anyone disagree about casting, I would love to hear it:

I want to show this video again, I hope people will stop long enough to watch what is CASTING. It is NOT EASY!!! I truly believe this is the answer for real life fighting outside in real environment. It is a way to strike hard without a wild swing. Here is the video again:

It is NOT easy, but look at how hard Lamont Glass can hit. He is one of the founder of this site and he is an instructor of a school. Go check him out in this forum, he goes by "Blindside". It is like punching in close distance with control, you can hit hard, only thing is you need to practice a long time to get good at it. I am by no means good in Casting yet.

I hesitated to mention this earlier since weapon fighting is not my primary skill. In the post #21 video you are in more of a horse stance most of the time, shallow and wide. Comparing this to the video on post #103, you can see that he always has a leg much more forward (front stance). This makes power generation easier/better and is a more mobile posture.

 

[Oily Dragon]

You don't? It's cute that you think all self-defense scenarios are going to be the same.
I treat a metric butt-ton of assaults. The vast majority of them occur in places with plenty of room. It doesn't take all that much to redirect the weapon and let it's arc continue all the way around.
I don't think it's likely that I will be fighting inside a phone booth

I know the perfect technique for self defense in a phone booth: get in and close the door.

Never heard of someone inside a phone booth being maimed or killed by someone outside of it.

Then again, first you have to find a phone booth...

 

[Alan0354]

I hesitated to mention this earlier since weapon fighting is not my primary skill. In the post #21 video you are in more of a horse stance most of the time, shallow and wide. Comparing this to the video on post #103, you can see that he always has a leg much more forward (front stance). This makes power generation easier/better and is a more mobile posture.

Thanks

I notice that now. I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post. Tony Dismukes pointed that out so I redo the video in post #21.

So the stance is still too wide? Yes, it's a whole lot more comfortable to have a higher stance that I can move more natural like when I do kick boxing.

I thought in post #5, you said I am too forward biased, I read your post and I make sure I stand straight.

Thanks



Side note: I am being accused I don't listen to the advice. I read VERY CAREFULLY. It was holidays, I was too busy. I actually have not read pass page 2 yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out. Like I do not practice using the hook of the cane to try to hook the person's neck and do all the fancy work. For one, I can lose my cane if the person jerks back. Also, I don't practice blocking if the opponent strike with cane that much at all because in self defense, I don't expect the young attacker have a cane or stick. I do spend a lot of time just on Casting. It looks simple, believe me, it's hard. But I can speak from experience, I can strike hard using Casting without swinging a big arc. Those swing from shoulder to the other shoulder in an arc or figure 8 are child's play. I did it in the first two months already and made the videos. It's the accidentally hitting furniture and lose the cane that really got me thinking and thanks to Lamont Glass introducing the Casting, I have not lost my cane for months. I am surprised some people here never think of losing the stick/cane in a fight. It happens all the time. The difference is in a competition, you lose the match. In real life, you can lose your life when you lose the cane.

Also, I try to keep the strike very simple, 4 strikes, two high, two low. Now I add the poking into the mix. I work very hard on cane fight the last few months, but mainly on what to me is important. Like what you said about the stance is VERY IMPORTANT and I will definitely try it out.

I always going by Less Is More even in MA. Like in bare knuckles, I mainly practice jab and reverse punch, I don't do fancy moves. Occasionally a circle punch(same as Ridge Hands in TKD), that's it. I use this principle in practicing cane fight. 4 strikes and poke. I also add kicks with the cane also, BUT no fancy twirling, figure 8 and all that fancy moves. I might be new in stick fight, but I do have a few years of TKD/kick boxing under my belt. I truly believe in less is more. I hate katas and all the fancy moves. I only want stuffs that works.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I thought I am supposed to have a horse stand as footwork!!! THAT's what really messed up for me on the videos in post #1. The last few weeks, I was actually practicing very deep horse stance to swing the cane, that really ruined the use of the shoulder and I actually forgot to use shoulder, waist and legs on the videos of the first post.

There are weapons systems which work from a deep horse stance or something like it, but that changes the whole dynamic of how you generate power. I wouldn’t recommend that approach unless you have a good teacher who can work with you in person on the system and everything it entails.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am of the opinion that a deep horse stance is not reality when it comes to cane SD

 

[Oily Dragon]

I am of the opinion that a deep horse stance is not reality when it comes to cane SD

Unless you are driving the cane down hard. In that case it's no different than swinging a sledgehammer on a tire. Or staff forms that contain downward smashing strikes. Deep ma bo is intended for learning and becoming comfortable with fast level changes. Fighting applications usually involve a higher horse stance (as seen below).

Whether or not that counts as "defense" is left open to interpretation. I'm still on the side of de- fence where the stick is best used to create and keep distance, strike the opponents hands, and not necessarily brain them. These kinds of dropping gravity strikes are meant to harm people already on the ground. Judge might be a bit suspicious.

Banga!

 

[Alan0354]

Thanks guys, this is helpful, this is exactly the advice I need. I agree that deep horse stance is not very useful in real application. I just got into deep horse stance a month ago because from doing that, it actually help my stability in everyday living and also relieve the pain in my knee. So I started practicing it. I just happened to mix into with the cane. I notice I cannot turn my body that easy with the strike, but I kept practicing. I did not realize that actually affected my normal cane even if I don't use deep stance.

I should have made the video like in the post #1 earlier to see the problem before I posted it and fix it first.

So far, I also learn that I can open up and swing more an arc sometimes. It's not all Casting or nothing. Sound simple, but I never stop and think about this. That was a good advice from Tony Dismukes. Now I am mixing in Casting and open swing in my exercise, together with a lot of poking. I also reminded in this thread from GowgaWolf that it is not good to use the strap around the wrist. Now that I got rid of the strap, I can open up and mix poking from both side. I start practicing strikes and pokes back and fore to get use to it. With Casting, I have not lost the cane the last few months.

Also, believe it or not, I know about "choking" to make the cane shorter for close range. I just never practice and always hold the cane at the longest range. GowgoWolf reminded me, now I am consciously reminding myself when close range, choke the cane a little to shorten it. I now practice back and fore between choking and all out. Hopefully I can get use to a longer cane.

Thanks guys, keep the comments coming.

 

[Rich Parsons]

...
I actually have not read pass page 2 yet, I am still going back to read now, so I never got to most of the posts!!! I am not going to say I will agree on all the suggestions, but I definitely will try it out.

Alan,
If you have not read my reply, please do so. If you have could you let me know how it went for you?
I really think what I suggested would be a place to step back and get some good body mechanics.
As to footwork, I recommend an Oblique Front walking. Oblique - Non Parallel - Non Perpendicular
Take a standard step forward. You feet won't be as wide as the class front walking and your feet may not be parallel as well.
Concentrate on weight and not casting to get the hips and body rotation in, and then go back and add the casting back in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Thanks guys, keep the comments coming.

What's the goal of your cane training? Do you intend to fight against people with:

1. open hand?
2. cane?
3. another kind of weapon (such as sword, long staff, ...)?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unless you are driving the cane down hard. In that case it's no different than swinging a sledgehammer on a tire. Or staff forms that contain downward smashing strikes. Deep ma bo is intended for learning and becoming comfortable with fast level changes. Fighting applications usually involve a higher horse stance (as seen below).

Whether or not that counts as "defense" is left open to interpretation. I'm still on the side of de- fence where the stick is best used to create and keep distance, strike the opponents hands, and not necessarily brain them. These kinds of dropping gravity strikes are meant to harm people already on the ground. Judge might be a bit suspicious.

Banga!

I tend to look at cane SD as to be used by those that need a cane and not those who are just carrying one around as a weapon for SD...not that I actually mean to quote Bruce Lee, but he did say what I am thinking when it comes to cane SD. The goal should be simply to simplify. Training a horse stance.... seems over complicate things and to not be applicable from my perspective for the cane.

The horse stance has it uses, I just don't see it as a great idea for training cane SD

 

[Dirty Dog]

I tend to look at cane SD as to be used by those that need a cane and not those who are just carrying one around as a weapon for SD...not that I actually mean to quote Bruce Lee, but he did say what I am thinking when it comes to cane SD. The goal should be simply to simplify.

I don't disagree, but I think if you NEED a cane, it's going to be even more difficult to use it as a weapon. The good thing about a cane is that nobody will think anything of it. Not even the TSA.
I don't think a cane is a great weapon. It's certainly not near the top of my list of things to carry. But it's better than nothing.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't disagree, but I think if you NEED a cane, it's going to be even more difficult to use it as a weapon. The good thing about a cane is that nobody will think anything of it. Not even the TSA.
I don't think a cane is a great weapon. It's certainly not near the top of my list of things to carry. But it's better than nothing.

Speaking as one who has needed a cane for a few months now.... it is difficult, especially if you base it on the stuff I see out there as cane SD. However there are ways to make it work, just as long as you are not planning on horse stances, quick back steps, front kicks, swinging it like a baseball bat and the like...as I see in a lot of the videos of it. And those videos are made for the exact thing you are talking about. And they are fine for the average martial artist. But not people who actually need it who may want to have some sort of SD. There are ways to use it if you need....believe me, I'm working on it, have been for a while.

 

[Alan0354]

A way to spot good staff training is to watch the hands move effortlessly around the stick. A longer staff gives you a lot more room to extend and contract. Jow Ga's staff form shares a lot of common ancestry with the other Eight Trigram long staff forms, and it's not too difficult to translate it to shorter sticks. It's all in the hands.

I finally get to your post. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that

Not a cane, Not even a good video for using a baton

Most people who hear staff training think of long distance striking and fighting. It wasn't until I started to seriously train to learn the staff that I discovered that there are a lot of close range stuff in there. There's a couple of techniques where I thought. Man this is slow. I'll get punched before I hit someone like this. Then it occurred to me that maybe the movement does something else. I did a gentle test on my son and asked him what did he feel. Then I had him do a similar test to see if I felt the same thing. It worked better against grappling which is probably why it's slow and powerful vs fast and powerful. But it was always taught as a strike. Can I hit someone in the head with it. Of course, but it's like a slow power punch and not a fast powerful jab. I now enjoy the staff more, now that I understand the close range fighting techniques.

I came to this conclusion as well when I used my sword (in sheath) today using some of the staff technique. A cane of the same height would should be able to perform the same way. A Jo would be taller and a really good fit for similar moves. As we can see it can be done with a cane but if it's too short then there won't be much wood on the striking end. The movement of the hand allows him to change the length of the stick that is being used to strike. His left hand moves to the opposite end of the can and so does his right hand. A rubber tip isn't going to soften those thrusts much. Catch one of those thrust in the mouth and I'm pretty sure the other guy will want to cut his loses short unless he has a gun lol.

I finally get to your posts. Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that.


EDIT: I tried it for a set, I just cannot get used to sliding along the cane. Maybe for long pole, it's useful, I am not sure for a crook cane. I just cannot get power out of it.

 

[Alan0354]

I have a walking stick with a metal ball as the handler. I can use it yo generate a lot of power if needed.

I have canes like that by Cold Steel

Yes, if you use the metal end, it can hit hard. Problem is it won't hang on anything which is a big inconvenient for day to day carry. This is something you carry a lot and hopefully never use it. I have two of them and I modified to this, the one on the left:

I also don't want the shinny handle to attract attention also. It's the most expensive canes in my collection.




BTW: I am still trying to catch up with the old posts on page #3. It will take me more than a day to catch up. I don't want people to think I am rude and not listening. I barely on page #3 right now!!!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Interesting, sliding the hand along the stick. I really do not get use to it, seems like the cane is too short to do that.

Yeah, I’m a big fan of sliding the hand for longer sticks and staves, not so much for cane length sticks. It can be done effectively, but for me it doesn’t feel ideal. Perhaps if you already had a lot of experience using that method for the long staff and were making the adjustment to using a cane then it might make sense to apply what you were already used to.

 

[Alan0354]

@Alan0354 I just realized I never responded to your response on my comments on this video/thread. First thing I want to say is that I think Jowga sums up my views perfectly. The best things to do would be to practice keeping distance, and learning transitions; ie: how to go from long range to short range, and short range to long range. You can't always rely that the first hit will finish things off, so you need to learn how to get to your favorite range, and learn how to prevent others from disengaging your weapon (although a rope that you said you have does a pretty good job of that).

You've stated your main experience is on striking, but my recommendation for you would actually be grappling. With a cane, you don't really need separate striking ability; either you're in a range to use your cane, or you're too close for striking to be effective. So really, what you'd need to know is how to grapple that way in case someone decides to rush you, you can make space. My recommendation would be either judo or silat since both are standing, and learning a standing grappling art will be more efficient at this point for you then refining your cane strikes further. If you need me to go into more detail on what I mean with that, let me know and I can.

I just got to this post. I assume you meant my response to your post#4.

I took out all the straps on my canes, I am not going to use the strap anymore. My moves are open up wide now that I don't have the strap that tie the cane on my left hand.

Yes, I have been practicing hitting from different distance now since this thread. I practice to switch striking by swinging and poking using both hands from both left and right side. I keep practicing switching from strike to poking to the body and head. Also, I start practice holding the cane at different position depends on striking at a distance or close distance. So many things that I should know but not practice.

Thanks