Need more advice in cane fight practice

[JowGaWolf]

Unless you have very good reason for your move, I am not going to practice this anymore.

Also stop discounting what people are saying so quickly. Especially with me. I never share the entire thing. It's like learning math. You don't explain the concepts of Calculus to 6 year old and then expect them to understand why they should learn how to add and subtract.

You start with the basics. You learn the basics, and you build your foundation from the strength of the basics. I show you one move and you discount it simply because you don't understand it. You don't understand it because you don't know the basics. You will not be able to learn anything correctly with this type of perspective.

If you really want to learn from what I know then you must first change your mindset and willingness to discount things so quickly. There's a lot of good advice in this forum. But discounting what I say and what some others say simply because it doesn't make sense to you is not the best way to learn. If you can't change then it's best that I don't bother teaching you what I understand and know how to do.

You have this bad habit that fighting is going to be "One thing" and then the fight is over. Here are examples of your logic form things that you have shared.

1. One iron palm strike and the fight will be over.
2. One good cane strike and the fight will be over.
3. If one technique works for one thing but not for another then discount that technique.

It's a very limited way of thinking of things and it's clearly stunting your ability to learn accomplish your goal.

 

[geezer]

A lot of his swinging techniques are those that would be used with a staff. This is what Oily Dragon was talking about in post #49. As for the video his form looks intimidating but it's mixed with some showmanship as well. There's nothing in this video that provides enough information on if he can actually use what he's doing. The most that I can say is that he has the body mechanics that would be needed to hit someone with that cane but that's about it. If he can fight with his bow then he should be able to fight with the cane as well.

I took a look at some of the other videos on that channel and this stuff is too complicated for me.

I do like this. Tai Chi sword uses a similar concept as well. Chinese staff uses a similar concept as well.

Not really a fan of any of the approaches showcased in the three videos above, at least from a practical self defense perspective for middle-aged and older individuals.

Video #1 The kata demonstrated is far too athletic with jumping and spinning kicks, etc. and also far too full of cane spins and twirls to be practical for self defense, especially for older individuals, even fit ones.

Video #2 This demo shows techniques which as you pointed out, are overly complicated, and also fail to make good use of a canes best attributes: namely it's function as a long range force multiplier that functions. Most of the close range combinations shown could be done as well or even more effectively with empty hands or a short range tool like a "palm stick".

The most egregious example of this failure to capitalize on the cane's length is how it is used here against a knife attack at 2:05 in the video. Why in heck would anybody try to defend against a knife attack by first parrying with a bare hand when you are holding a stout cane? That's beyond stupid.

Video #3 When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power. To that end you are best advised to 1. Have a strong, heavy cane, 2. To use a two handed grip when possible and 3. train striking using good kinetic linkages and whole-body engagement. Basically the stuff Alan has been talking about for most of this thread.

Now sure there is a time for one-handed grips with the intermittent use of the off-hand to reinforce and accelerate a strike. But that's usually better employed with a shorter stick ...that is an Escrima bastón, olisi, or similar weapon roughly 24 to 28 inches in length, ...not a hefty three foot cane.

 

[geezer]

Your grand daughter doesn't know how to fight with a cane or a staff. so I wouldn't go on that feeling too much to define the weaknesses of using the cane, walking stick, or staff.

Ha! What Jow Ga said above! Your grandaughter can't give you the physical input you need to realistically test and analyze your techniques. The next step in your development will be to recruit a couple of good training partners. And yeah, I do know how hard that can be.

It will be a liability if you don't know how to use that cane to fight close range which is what I've been saying for a while now. Using a cane for a long distance is an easier concept to understand. Using it in close range, not so much. That's the weakness of the cane, walking stick, staff that Dirty Dog and I were talking about earlier on.

I wouldn't suggest dropping the cane. It's better to learn to use it in close range than to just abandon it for the sake of grappling. The reason why is because dropping the cane gives your opponent to option to push you away, pick up your cane and then beat you with your own cane. Keep in mind that you brought a self-defense cane to a fight, so it' not going to break if your opponent hits you with it.

If you want learn to fight with a cane, then understand that there's long range and close range cane fighting techniques that you'll need to develop.

Yep.l Just because the cane has the most to offer at longer range is no reason to ignore practical close range application. In fact, the natural response of a determined attacker (i.e. one who won't run away as soon as you start swinging) will be to close and try to grapple.

After all, anybody whose ever faced someone swinging a stick knows that you've got to move inside to (mostly) nullify the sticks power. My problem with the use of close range tactics in the video perviously posted isn't with close range tactics, but with the fact that...

1. There is no attempt to maintain range and maximize the cane's advantage, and...

2. The particular close range tactics shown seem (as Jow Ga pointed out) to be complicated and IMO not very reliable.

Crafty Dog/Marc Denny of the Dog Bros. and a lot of others have much better stick-grappling moves you can research.

 

[tim po]

Video #3 When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power. To that end you are best advised to 1. Have a strong, heavy cane, 2. To use a two handed grip when possible and 3. train striking using good kinetic linkages and whole-body engagement. Basically the stuff Alan has been talking about for most of this thread.

Now sure there is a time for one-handed grips with the intermittent use of the off-hand to reinforce and accelerate a strike. But that's usually better employed with a shorter stick ...that is an Escrima bastón, olisi, or similar weapon roughly 24 to 28 inches in length, ...not a hefty three foot cane.

i mostly agree, i feel differently about one handed cane technique, but not the way it was shown in the third video.

a cane is generally not a stout, three foot stick, and i don't feel that it needs to be. the main advantage of a heavier 'tactical' cane is that it will deliver a powerful head or knee shot, and already the thread has discussed the practical need to consider other options, for various reasoning.

i am 6' and my cane is 32" long, so not quite a hanbo. and with the crook at one end, a cane differs from a staff as the crooked end offers different possibilities for handling and striking, and requires some different strategies than a straight staff. spinning a cane is not all that practical, and the idea of creating distance-though you can, you can create distance empty handed-it is not a bo, or a jo, or even hanbo, and to really use it to effect you will be getting close enough to be hit; the range of effective use is really not much wider than punching and (in the case of a full length tip-end strike) kicking range.

i like working a cane with mostly one hand, my dominant hand near the crooked end preferably, while the other hand can float- trap, parry, strike or hold the cane at any point along it's length to strike or thrust. the cane still provides advantage over empty hands this way because the hard ends increase impact power, and at any given time the length of space between your hands can be a hard weapon for striking or blocking. i consider the cane a close-quarters weapon, and primarily a grappling tool- with the bonus of whip-fast distance strikes to the brachial plexus.

 

[geezer]

...a cane is generally not a stout, three foot stick, and i don't feel that it needs to be....
i am 6' and my cane is 32" long, so not quite a hanbo... and with the crook at one end, a cane differs from a staff as the crooked end offers different possibilities for handling and striking, and requires some different strategies than a straight staff.

I have about half-a dozen canes of different dimensions and weights, but the standard walking canes (such as used for orthopedic reasons) average about 36 inches for most men around 6' tall depending on their proportions. I'm only about 5'8" and I've cut my canes down an inch or so.

Secondly, I advocate having some heft to a cane if used for self-defense. Yes a light cane cane be swung faster and make a helluva whip, but a more massive cane, when swung with body force, has considerably more impact and also hits really hard with a two-handed thrust. At close range, when someone grabs it, often the best bet is to release one hand and punch them, really hard.

Stick grappling is a great option for a fit grappler, but not my first recommendation to an older person more interested in self-defense. I'm thinking of a fit older person mid fifties to mid seventies with a good martial arts background. Older than that, a gun is probably a better bet. For a while. ....After 90 or so, you pretty much depend on good judgement and help from others for safety. My dad will be 97 in a couple of months and, though fit for his age, has even given up his gun and car. He may even give up skiing this year. Honestly, he was a fierce little man until he got pretty old, but there are limits for all of us.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Video #3 When you are striking with a cane you need to generate real power.

I have a walking stick with a metal ball as the handler. I can use it yo generate a lot of power if needed.

 

[tim po]

can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?

i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.

assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon. if a person 'grabs' the end of my staff, any length staff, they had better be willing to let go of it right damn quick- as anybody with any degree of skill with a staff knows exactly how to toss someone who is grabbing the end of their staff-and it's not by letting go and punching him in the face.

there are better ways to strike with a cane than a two-fisted baseball-bat style swing. if one carries a cane solely for the intention of defense, and thus chooses a specialty cane that is heavy and made of high-density polypropylene so it can pack a mean punch, they will have to train to use that particular cane to it's best effect, and it does provide more realistic options for KO strikes than a lighter cane. it all comes down to movement basics, any cane or stick can deliver enough force to use for protection in any number of ways, if you're movement is correct, and you strike the right targets. that requires training and skill, like anything else. a strong person can amplify the force of their strike by using a heavy stick-this is true, but there is no need to discuss that truth, from a martial arts perspective. swinging a stick like a bat does not require martial arts skill, but even swinging a bat has a certain body mechanics it requires, no?
movement basics don't end at ' punch him really hard', and they don't begin with 'swing the stick with two hands'. first, you have to move your feet, putting your body where it a. doesn't get hit and b. has access to viable targets from it's position. going right from here to the big KO is usually going to be a mistake, you need to disrupt balance and inertia, striking for a measure of pain but also for position-you still have the primary goal of not getting hit.

ordinary canes are what i work with, but i am working on building a heavier, stouter one-i have a titanium replacement hip(that someone lost? don't know how i ended up finding one...)that i intent to fashion into a helluva SD cane! but I will have to modify my style somewhat. I have a different approach to canes, but also i have basic movement skills that i can count on, and a detailed knowledge of the targets of the body and strategies for reaching them (without getting hit).. i would make a video, but i don't have a camera. or an uke. i could ask a friend, but i only have a few, and chances are i'd have one less after showing them all the nasty stuff i can do with a cane...

 

[JowGaWolf]

i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.

I don't think Alan is 90 yet lol. If so, then he ages really well.

 

[geezer]

...can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?

I disagree. First, firearms skills are a martial art and were even so recognized in ancient Japan, so their appropriateness in any given situation is a legitimate topic to discuss. And, they are a necessary thing to discuss, considering that where I live, any adult who's not a felon can carry, openly or concealed, with or without a permit ...and many people do carry. I don't.

i was thinking quite the opposite-no, i wouldn't try to teach grappling to a 90 year old man with no experience, but i wouldn't encourage him to swing a heavy stick with two hands, either.

I generally agree, although I did have an Escrima student in his mid 80s who really enjoyed stick-work, including some basic cane techniques.

...assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon.

Yeah, a person who can punch might also carry a "force amplifier" of some sort for self-defense, be it a palm-stick, a cane, a metal water bottle, a knife or a gun. Self-defense weapons aren't just for "wimps". In fact, if you don't have a decent empty hand background, most weapons, short of a knife or gun aren't enough.

We all know folks with no MA experience who foolishly believe that just a weapon and a few tricks will protect them. You say as much yourself in your post.

if a person 'grabs' the end of my staff, any length staff, they had better be willing to let go of it right damn quick- as anybody with any degree of skill with a staff knows exactly how to toss someone who is grabbing the end of their staff-and it's not by letting go and punching him in the face.

A staff is a very different animal than a short stick. A cane falls somewhere in-between. Yes, there are simple techniques to free a stick a grab, but at close range you can also maintain your forward momentum, and strike with your free hand to set up your next strike.

One thing worth noting: when a strong, resisting opponent has latched on to your stick with both hands, it is NOT always so easy to break free in an instant. But on the other hand, you know where his hands are ... and he has to let go to hit you. That is a great time to hit him!

So, from a two-handed grip, retain control of your weapon with one hand, while releasing the other hand to punch, then continue with your stick.

At least this is something we train in the Escrima I learned from Rene Latosa and later from Martin Torres. And those guys know their stuff. Even a "soft-style" aikidoka, who used to teach my son, affirmed that a strike is a great set-up for a lock or throw.

there are better ways to strike with a cane than a two-fisted baseball-bat style swing.

Yes and no. It's situational, depending on range and what threat you are facing. What is your range from your opponent? What is the environment, i.e. how much space do you have? Is your opponent/attacker armed? ...and, if so with what? ...a bottle? ...a knife? Context is very important!

BTW we train different ways to grip a stick, cane and staff, including several two-handed grips, for example: hands together, hands separated at shoulder width, palms both down, one palm up and one down, sliding grip thrust (like a pool cue), etc., with a lot of work on transitions.

...if one carries a cane solely for the intention of defense, and thus chooses a specialty cane that is heavy and made of high-density polypropylene so it can pack a mean punch, they will have to train to use that particular cane to it's best effect, and it does provide more realistic options for KO strikes than a lighter cane. it all comes down to movement basics, any cane or stick can deliver enough force to use for protection in any number of ways, if you're movement is correct, and you strike the right targets. that requires training and skill, like anything else.

Yep.

a strong person can amplify the force of their strike by using a heavy stick-this is true, but there is no need to discuss that truth, from a martial arts perspective. swinging a stick like a bat does not require martial arts skill, but even swinging a bat has a certain body mechanics it requires, no?

To the contrary, how to swing a stick (or bat) with accuracy, power, focus, distance and timing is something worth discussing ...and worth training! Like you say above ...it requires certain body mechanics.

...movement basics don't end at ' punch him really hard', and they don't begin with 'swing the stick with two hands'. first, you have to move your feet, putting your body where it a. doesn't get hit and b. has access to viable targets from it's position. going right from here to the big KO is usually going to be a mistake, you need to disrupt balance and inertia, striking for a measure of pain but also for position-you still have the primary goal of not getting hit.

I agree 100%.

ordinary canes are what i work with, but i am working on building a heavier, stouter one-i have a titanium replacement hip(that someone lost? don't know how i ended up finding one...)that i intent to fashion into a helluva SD cane! but I will have to modify my style somewhat. I have a different approach to canes, but also i have basic movement skills that i can count on, and a detailed knowledge of the targets of the body and strategies for reaching them (without getting hit).. i would make a video, but i don't have a camera. or an uke. i could ask a friend, but i only have a few, and chances are i'd have one less after showing them all the nasty stuff i can do with a cane...

I totally get what you are saying here. I have no experience or equipment to make videos either. I do have a student who's offered to help, but we've been busy haven't been able get together and get anything done. On top of that he and his wife are just recovering from being sick with a "breakthrough"case of COVID-19. ...Well, maybe we'll get to it some day.

 

[Dirty Dog]

can we all please agree that when discussing self-defense techniques, there is no need to state that 'a gun is probably better'?

No. The notion that there is any single answer is ludicrous.

assuming that someone chooses a cane because they are old enough to want to use one-if not necessarily need to use one-and thus might not be all that good at just 'punching them in the face really hard'. people good at punching probably don't need a stick weapon.

Nonsense. Sometimes the hands are the right choice. Sometimes a stick is the right choice. Sometimes a gun is the right choice.

 

[geezer]

BTW - Sorry for the long wordy breakdown. I'm no authority like Chris Parker, but nevertheless, I do have my opinions! Happy New year all!

 

[tim po]

No. The notion that there is any single answer is ludicrous.

Nonsense. Sometimes the hands are the right choice. Sometimes a stick is the right choice. Sometimes a gun is the right choice.

i don't think anything either of you have said in reply to me are in disagreement with what i am saying, as for guns, i just think it kinda goes without saying, thats all, and shouldn't be a conversation-ender when discussing non-firearm weapons.

where you seem to disagree, i think it is a matter of how i said it more than what i am saying, i'm not expecting to sum it all up, just to touch on nuances and observations. i do not believe i have suggested any 'one and only way that will work for everyone all the time'. can we move on?

it is ALL worth discussing! just adding a few cents to the pool of skill sharing. not attacking anyone.

 

[tim po]

addendum: striking (or something) with one hand while keeping control of the cane with the other is perfectly fair game, whether or not they have seized your cane, i should have worded that better.

 

[geezer]

addendum: striking (or something) with one hand while keeping control of the cane with the other is perfectly fair game, whether or not they have seized your cane, i should have worded that better.

Ha! I knew we were actually agreeing on a lotta stuff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

BTW - Sorry for the long wordy breakdown. I'm no authority like Chris Parker, but nevertheless, I do have my opinions! Happy New year all!

To be honest. We have gone over a lot of this stuff already in previous years. I think we have cleared most of the opinions in this place. The only thing that is really left is "Preference." Basically picking the best option for the person in question.

 

[geezer]

To be honest. We have gone over a lot of this stuff already in previous years. I think we have cleared most of the opinions in this place. The only thing that is really left is "Preference." Basically picking the best option for the person in question.

TBH in the years that this forum has been going (over 20 years), we've discussed just about every topic at some point, which is one reason why a lot of the dedicated old timers have moved on, some after tens of thousands of posts.

Guess it's a good thing some of us like to repeat ourselves ...or there would be nobody left!

And that, BTW leads me to one of my New Year's resolutions, namely to recruit a few new forum members. Some areas dear to my heart are almost dead. For example the FMA sub forum sure could see some more action!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Just wanted to point out the funny, Mandarin word for staff is gun or bang.

So, I agree again. Range matters.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

TBH in the years that this forum has been going (over 20 years), we've discussed just about every topic at some point, which is one reason why a lot of the dedicated old timers have moved on, some after tens of thousands of posts.

Guess it's a good thing some of us like to repeat ourselves ...or there would be nobody left!

And that, BTW leads me to one of my New Year's resolutions, namely to recruit a few new forum members. Some areas dear to my heart are almost dead. For example the FMA sub forum sure could see some more action!

We've discussed basically every topic since I've been on here (about 10 years, longer if you count lurking). And a lot of the time I'll see a topic either title or posts go to a certain way, and I ignore it, being able to predict exactly where it will go. Which then gets proved right when I have to read through it cause a post gets reported. Different people, same posts lol.

But, there are also surprises. New posts, that I hadn't thought of, and hadn't read that make me think of it slightly differently. And most of those come from new members, that haven't been indoctrinated into the global version of their view. And those are the ones that I learn from, and appreciate. As a result, my new years resolution is to appreciate new members more, and do my best to encourage them to stay and post, even (or especially) when they're posting new/controversial takes on decades-long arguments.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just wanted to point out the funny, Mandarin word for staff is gun or bang.

So, I agree again. Range matters.

I was unaware of this. Do you mean that the mandarin word for staff translates to either gun or bang, or that that's the literal phonetics of the translation for "Staff"? If the latter, that makes me wonder if the person who originally came up with the word gun knew chinese...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It may be due to the weight of the cane. I know heavier weapons tend to naturally flow and lighter weapons tend to start and stop.


I took your perspective and went and looked at the video again. This time instead of just thinking of advice I can give about the swing. I took a "larger view." when I did, I found myself thinking of the same things I train for staff. Here's what went through my mind.

Question: How would I attack Alan if he was swinging a cane?

Analysis: Rush him. After rushing him it wouldn't matter if he held onto the cane. As long as that cane is bound to his hand he's not going to be able to defend with that hand once that cane get's tangled in the scuffle. His inability to let go of the cane provides me with some opportunity. Alan not being able to slide the hands along the cane also opens some opportunities for me. I'm reminded of swords and machetes. We don't see them being bound to the wrist with rope and leather for a reason. On the most basic level, say the bound hand gets injured. you couldn't switch to the weapon to the good hand.

Swings to the head with a blunted weapon can be dulled by covering my head as I rush in. With a bladed weapons the swings would be critical, with a blunted weapon I can take a hit so long as I'm not on the power end of the swing. We have often seen this happen to people who spar in dog brothers. It's also the thing that I'm most sensitive to when training staff. "What if they rush me" is an event that I have to prepare for with the staff and I'm seeing some of the same weaknesses with this cane

With my staff I train about 80% close range staff fighting and 20% long range all because I know the likely hood of being rushed is a real one. This actually keep me from being worried about my staff being taken from me.

Answer: I would bait the swing and not the poke. Give him the target he wants if he's not willing to take it on his own. Then close the distance. The closer in I am the less he'll be able to do with that cane. Especially because the cane is secure to his wrist. He would have trouble with pulling the cane through.


Thoughts on training: I think at this point he should be mixing it up with strikes and attacks. Drill is one thing but usable combinations is another. I would train a few combinations based on situations.
1. Keeping distance
2. Engaging long range
3. Engaging close range.
4. Protect weapon counters "what if someone tries to take the cane away."

@Alan0354 I just realized I never responded to your response on my comments on this video/thread. First thing I want to say is that I think Jowga sums up my views perfectly. The best things to do would be to practice keeping distance, and learning transitions; ie: how to go from long range to short range, and short range to long range. You can't always rely that the first hit will finish things off, so you need to learn how to get to your favorite range, and learn how to prevent others from disengaging your weapon (although a rope that you said you have does a pretty good job of that).

You've stated your main experience is on striking, but my recommendation for you would actually be grappling. With a cane, you don't really need separate striking ability; either you're in a range to use your cane, or you're too close for striking to be effective. So really, what you'd need to know is how to grapple that way in case someone decides to rush you, you can make space. My recommendation would be either judo or silat since both are standing, and learning a standing grappling art will be more efficient at this point for you then refining your cane strikes further. If you need me to go into more detail on what I mean with that, let me know and I can.