Need help with dive rolls

[Stac3y]

So Friday night we were working on throws and falls. I was called away for a few minutes during the instructor's explanation of how to do a dive roll--not that the explanation probably would have helped. I'm still not competent at regular forward rolls without the dive part.

Unfortunately, I am simply not allowed to be incompetent at this--it's part of my black belt test (coming in August). Can anyone help me out, here? Any tips on learning this stuff? My breakfalls are pretty decent; I just can't get the hang of the forward rolls.

 

[Flea]

I wish I could help you. I'm building my confidence by starting from a kneeling position. I know in Systema we practice by having someone go down on all fours and the roller does a controlled "trip" over them. Maybe that would help?

 

[Sukerkin]

Starting from a kneeling position as Flea suggests is probably a good idea. The main problem I encountered with forward rolls, in the days when I could still do such things, is that people, understandably, tend to lead with their head rather than their shoulder. Getting that wrong from a fast standing start can play havoc with your neck, so it's best to get used to 'rolling' into the roll rather than diving in head first .

 

[dancingalone]

Starting from a kneeling position as Flea suggests is probably a good idea. The main problem I encountered with forward rolls, in the days when I could still do such things, is that people, understandably, tend to lead with their head rather than their shoulder. Getting that wrong from a fast standing start can play havoc with your neck, so it's best to get used to 'rolling' into the roll rather than diving in head first .

When I teach ukemi, I often find it useful to physically roll the student through the full manuever myself, so they receive the sensation of a correct roll. Many beginners simply don't understand how to 'round' themselves without patient help from a teacher, and it's not uncommon for me to spend 15-20 minutes of a private lesson just pushing a student around on the mat to get them used to the motion and feeling. It's an OK workout for me, too, and I can practice on using my center to push from my knees

I really suggest finding someone who will be willing to work with you regularly on this. You'll need to practice this every day as a beginner, as the body awareness fades quickly at this state. Might be worth booking some time with your instructor for this (ideally).

 

[jks9199]

It's really not something that I can teach without being able to work with you. A few keys are to be sure to tuck your chin, to think "round", and to develop confidence in a standing roll before doing diving rolls. You can't run till you walk... and you can't do a diving roll till you're reasonably comfortable standing. It's also something that takes pretty much daily practice for a while because you really have to overcome the fear of falling and fear of the ground.

 

[ATC]

As others have already mentioned, without physically helping you it is near impossible to simply explain things to you. One tip, and it also was touched on already, is to take things in progression or steps.

1. Simply kneel and roll first. Once you can do this effortlessly then move on.

2. Stand and walk roll next. You may want to stack some kicking shields about knee high to roll over. Simple walk and roll from standing position over the kicking shields without touching them. Again do this until you can do this with little effort and it seems simple to you.

3. Jog and roll is next. Same as the walk and roll except you increase your speed and a small jump before the roll. Keep your shield stack that you are rolling over at knee level until you can jog roll over that stack with ease. Then increase the size of the stack slowly until about mid thigh high. Now add a small jump right before your roll. Once you can jog and jump roll this small stack with ease move on to the last stage. Again, do not touch the shield as this is an indications of at least successfully getting over your obstacle. However you still may not be rolling correctly.

4. Run and jump roll. Keeping with the same technique as the jog and jump roll, simply run instead of jogging and increase your jump. You will do this in small increments by increasing your shield stack. Simply add one shield (about 2 - 3 inches) at a time to help slowly increase you jump height. You should attempt each added height many times before increasing to the next height. This may take you a few weeks but over time you will get better and higher as the weeks go by. At first you may only run jump roll over 4 shields for some time. But soon you will be doing 5 then 6 then 7 and up to you max over time. Your max may become you waist height or even your shoulder height. But your max is your max not someone else’s.

You will need someone there to help spot and correct techniques. I have simply given you, a progression method that may help you. You will still need someone to help with the corrections with the technique. How to tuck, how to place your hands, how to not land on your back and knock the wind out of you, but to land on the upper shoulders and roll softly throughout the entire technique. And other things.

Remember the shields are giving you a target to get over and not touching them will let you know and force you to correct any bad techniques.

Hope this helps

 

[shesulsa]

Most women have trouble with the upper body portion of this. Your arm and shoulder need to be curved and fairly rigid as though you were making yourself into a wheel. If you're collapsing onto your shoulder and/or neck, you're not holding your arm/shoulder correctly.

Try this:

Do a backwards somersault, but go over a shoulder instead of your head. This is, essentially, a back-roll. Pay attention to what you do at the end - you'll notice you use one arm to help take pressure off of your neck and head and the other to push yourself up off the ground.

Now reverse that process. The hand that pushed you off the ground becomes a spring-like shock-absorber and your other arm like a levered spring. Curl your spine, tuck one leg (sole of the foot down, not the ankle) and you might be able to stand from there if you had momentum.

Work the backroll first. Reverse it, then work on gradually standing up.

Once you can do rolls from a standing position, then add tiny little jumps into it. When you can do that, give yourself an obstacle you can easily get over, then increase the difficulty.

Remember - the arms are the initial shock absorber.

 

[shesulsa]

I want to add that you want to roll in a diagonal fashion across your body - i.e. a "left dive roll" would be your left arm extended to help steer you (wheel) and your right arm to help absorb shock. The "wheel" would be shaped from your left forearm moving down to your left shoulder, diagonally across your back to your right hip springing up onto your right leg.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Unfortunately, I am simply not allowed to be incompetent at this--it's part of my black belt test (coming in August). Can anyone help me out, here? Any tips on learning this stuff? My breakfalls are pretty decent; I just can't get the hang of the forward rolls.

I am going to give you a very simple piece of advice that I followed myself.
Practise

On occasion when there was no practise because the class was cancelled (likw during the christmas holidays) I rented the place by myself and spent an hour and a half practisign my rolls.

Yes, it hurt, yes I was dizzy occasionally (it helps to alternate different types of roll) and yes, I was sore for days. But it helped. A lot. Some of the rolls in ninpo can be quite counter-intuitive, and the first several dozen time you will get them wrong and go bumpity-bump-slam instead of making a smooth roll.

However, you will get better rapidly.
It's the same as with learning to do a handstand flip. I watched and analysed a certain youtube clip over a hundred times while I tried for weeks and weeks in my dojo or in my backyard. I must've fell hundreds of times. And now I can do it without a second thought.

Practise, practise, practise. You will get better.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Ok now a few simple tips:
1) keep your chin tucked to your chest at all times. You head and neck should never touch the floor.
2) extend your arm and roll over your shoulder. The direction of your arm will be the direction of your roll.
3) to help you keep your back curved, keep an eye on your feet while rolling
4) exhale while rolling.

 

[Nomad]

This is one of those things that some people seem to take to naturally, and others never seem to get the hang of. One of the biggest things standing in most people's way is themselves. A fear of falling, hurting themselves or looking silly.

A really simple way to observe this is to have students perform their rolls as normal, then have them do rolls over an object (which could be a punching bag, but might be no more than a belt on the floor). For many students, the addition of a hurdle, no matter how small, changes their rolls and makes them obviously uncomfortable... even though if they performed the roll EXACTLY as they did without the barrier, they'd clear it easily.

The advice given by others is good; in learning to dive roll, the most important part is building confidence in your own abilities. Start from kneeling, move to standing, add a few steps, go a little faster, then add obstacles, starting small and gradually increasing their height. Make the obstacles something that won't hurt you if you fail to clear it (an unused belt held by two classmates works very well for this; a bo is not a good choice to learn, though it looks good at demonstrations).

Physically, one of the most important aspects of the roll is RELAXATION. If you go into the roll stiff, there's a much greater probability of flopping to one side or flat onto your back, and a greater chance of hurting yourself.

 

[Nishibi Ryu]

All the advise given here is excellent and practice is the main thing to do, I will just add one thing though.

If you step forward with your right foot, bend down placing your right hand on the ground, yes you can bend your knees its not a stretching excercise. Place your left hand approx 1 foot behind the right and make sure your right arm is slightly bent but ridgid. Now the important thing initially is to make sure your fingers on both hands are pointed toward your feet as much as possible. Now push off with your left leg and roll over your right arm and shoulder and keep your chin inward. Why I said to point your fingers toward your toes is because it helps angle the body for the roll, my sons had this trouble a little while ago and it helped them a lot, once you get the hang of it it is not as critical but initially it may help.
Important thing though is to plant your right hand on the mat don't let it slide through toward your feet, that is a good way to do a collar bone. When you get to the dive roll just make sure you do the same but pick a spot on the mat in front of you and push off harder and make your hands hit that spot and roll the same way.

I'm interested what MA do you do, we teach rolls from white belt so I am surprised some only do it at your level?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

By cooincidence, last Monday at dojo, we practiced rolling (from a kneeling position). At the end of class, some of the younger guys got into a competition between themselves to see who could dive over a broomstick held about five feet in the air and roll. They took turns, and kept getting higher and higher. I had left for the evening, but I was told this Monday night that one of them landed funny and broke his collarbone. Ouch!

I'm going to stick with the kneeling rolls for now. Eventually I want to get better, but I doubt I'll ever be doing dive rolls. Too old, too large, too fragile these days.

 

[Big Don]

I'm going to stick with the kneeling rolls for now. Eventually I want to get better, but I doubt I'll ever be doing dive rolls. Too old, too large, too fragile these days.

I hear you, and I make the same complaints, they, sadly, ignore me...

 

[Stac3y]

I'm interested what MA do you do, we teach rolls from white belt so I am surprised some only do it at your level?

I do American Karate. It's almost exclusively standup fighting; the throws and breakfalls are part of our "extracurricular" self defense, so we don't study them extensively until brown belt, though we start the breakfalls earlier. We learn leg sweeps (for takedowns in self defense) starting at white belt. Consequently, I'm competent at breakfalls and sweeps, but last Friday was only my second lesson on rolls. Our black belt test has a series of impromptu self defense sequences (3 unique sequences per attack), so we have to be able to throw or otherwise take down our ukes in that, and roll or breakfall if we are the ukes.

Honestly, I'd rather stand up and kick people, but I know I need to be able to do this, too. Just hope my back holds up--I broke it as a child, and have ongoing problems with it as a result.

Thanks, everyone, for the help. I'm going to start working on this next week (got a big tournament this Friday and Saturday, so I'm polishing up my kata this week.)

 

[jks9199]

Work into them slowly and cautiously. I suffered a compression fracture almost 20 years ago -- I can still do falls and rolls, though I can tell if I overdo 'em. Develop flexibility and back strength and you'll be fine. You might consider taking a decent yoga or core fitness class.

 

[Nishibi Ryu]

I do American Karate. It's almost exclusively standup fighting; the throws and breakfalls are part of our "extracurricular" self defense, so we don't study them extensively until brown belt, though we start the breakfalls earlier. We learn leg sweeps (for takedowns in self defense) starting at white belt. Consequently, I'm competent at breakfalls and sweeps, but last Friday was only my second lesson on rolls. Our black belt test has a series of impromptu self defense sequences (3 unique sequences per attack), so we have to be able to throw or otherwise take down our ukes in that, and roll or breakfall if we are the ukes.

Honestly, I'd rather stand up and kick people, but I know I need to be able to do this, too. Just hope my back holds up--I broke it as a child, and have ongoing problems with it as a result.

Thanks, everyone, for the help. I'm going to start working on this next week (got a big tournament this Friday and Saturday, so I'm polishing up my kata this week.)

OK thanks for the reply, don't worry you'll be fine with the rolls just keep at it, good luck in the comp kick some butt!

 

[kingkong89]

The most importnant par of a roll is tilt your head when you go to roll aact like someone is pulling your ar between your legs and just fall forward for a regular roll a dive roll is the same principle only you are moving forward. Just remember to roll on your shoulder good luck with your test