Need a HKD BB to go with your TKD BB?

[miguksaram]

It is probably not what you intended sir, but you sound as if you are defending the school's practices. I will join you in not being judgemental, except that I wonder how a TKD school can find the time to raise a TKD student from 1st to 2nd, or 2nd to 3rd, or whatever, in one year? Quite a feat wouldn't you think? And before you say they may have set aside their TKD curriculim to teach only Hapkido, why would they require the potential student to have a BB in TKD.

You are right, that I am not defending this school or organization. Just trying to get more clarification of the facts, not interpretations. It is not unheard of from promoting to a 2nd degree in one year. However, I do admit going from 1st to 3rd or 2nd to 3rd within a year does throw up the red flag. There are exceptions to the rule but for the most part it is not done very often, that I know of.

I think I can safely say you wouldn't run your school that way would you sir?

I would prohibit any student in my school to promote to a rank that they were not eligible or qualified in receiving.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Has anyone tried contacting the IHF directly to clarify the actual requirements? Do you know if this was mass marketed to every martial art school or marketed directly to the TKD schools within the US Hanmookwan organization? Which IHF is sponsoring this and what is their overall record of quality? (If you look up International Hapkido Federation on google you will receive several different orgs with several different leaders)

One thought that I had was that it could be specifically for those taekwondoin who have received instruction in hapkido but hold no actual rank. The seminar may be the opportunity for those who have learned hapkido (as opposed to just a few joint locks) but hold no formal rank the opportunity to work with hapkido masters and to take a formal test and thus hold the rank that their skills are matched to.

I will refrain from passing judgement, and as I really don't care, I had no plans to contact the org; I already hold rank in the art and was taught by instructors with IHF lineage, even if through a non affiliated school.

The flier's wording makes it an easy target for an internet thread, but I question, as others on this thread have, whether this flier was meant for a general audience, as well as whether or not the flier assumed that the people who were going to receive it would already have a level of knowledge and training prior to the seminar.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Ok...so you did not call them.

Nope. Didn't see the need, as I've already mentioned, since the information is clearly stated in their flyer.

Are you afraid to contact them directly to confirm your assumption?

No assumptions made, just comments on what is clearly listed in the flyer. I take them for what they've stated.

No, I simply asked you to find out more information, which apparently you do not feel the need to.

Are you sure? If you're so curious about it, have you called them?

Because if you understood KKW TKD you would first, above all else, know that there is not such thing as KKW Sport TKD. There is KKW TKD, which has a sport aspect.

Semantics and word games on your part to divert the topic. Whatever you may consider as SD for KKW schools...it probably isn't full-fledged Hapkido. Do you disagree?

For all I know someone has been teaching them the IHF HKD curriculum.

Have you actually read the flyer? To begin with, it is a flyer to TKD schools in general. Nothing in the flyer denotes a specific school, being taught a specific curriculum. One again...a TKD school, not a HKD school. And though HKD 'stuff' may have been taught, it wasn't 'uniquely recognized' as HKD. That's pretty general, and it is a stretch to even suggest any of them have been learning IHF HKD Jeremy. You know that, I know that and so does everyone else reading this thread. What HKD 'stuff' is taught at one TKD school may and will differ from what is taught at another TKD school. You can have no definitive standard on what was taught, who it was taught by or how to test for it.

Yet somehow a person is now able to get a BB, possibly higher than 1st Dan after learning some HKD 'stuff' in their TKD school and taking a two-day seminar.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

One thought that I had was that it could be specifically for those taekwondoin who have received instruction in hapkido but hold no actual rank. The seminar may be the opportunity for those who have learned hapkido (as opposed to just a few joint locks) but hold no formal rank the opportunity to work with hapkido masters and to take a formal test and thus hold the rank that their skills are matched to.

Let's take a look at this for a moment Daniel. Okay, the TKD'in has received HKD training beyond just some 'stuff' tossed into the class. Let's now say that HKD training is pretty much the same as any HKD'in would get at a HKD school. Here's are the questions...who is teaching them HKD? And why did he/she not rank them in HKD themselves? Did they not have HKD rank themselves? In that case, why are they teaching HKD? How would you consider the HKD taught by this 'instructor' as quality HKD? How would it differ from school to school? Again, look at the flyer, it is going out to Grandmasters, Masters, Instructors and black belts. That appears pretty general. I don't see it as specific to any small group, being taught a specific HKD curriculum. Do you think they'd turn anyone away? Seriously.

So as I stated to Jeremy, I think it is a real stretch to even suggest that this is meant for TKD schools that have had in-depth and continuous HKD training...by someone with no HKD rank...that can't certify them himself or give them any rank.

 

[Archtkd]

http://www.gmwons.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Hapkido-Info.pdf

Great news for anyone wanting a HKD BB to compliment their TKD BB, without the fuss of actually having to train for one (at least beyond two days). And better yet, you may not have to start at 1st Dan, it could be higher. There are stringent requirements though so be forwarned, you need a TKD BB and you will have to attend at least two days training time to be eligible to test for a HKD BB. That's a whole weekend!

And even better news, if you attended last years seminar you're likely to be eligible for a promotion already.

I'm not sure what the test fee is, but it is in addition to the seminar fee. Only Visa and Master Card are excepted though.

So much for the so called "independents." It's interesting to note who is hosting this event: http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html

 

[Archtkd]

You may have to wait for another KKW special testing for that BB.

These are the folks you should be referring him to: http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html

 

[miguksaram]

Nope. Didn't see the need, as I've already mentioned, since the information is clearly stated in their flyer.

A flyer that was posted on their site, most likely intended for their students and people from their organization, unless, of course, you know the answer to the other question which is whether or not they posted this to anyone and everyone. However, if it is just their organization then we are outsiders looking in and really do not know what they are doing.

No assumptions made, just comments on what is clearly listed in the flyer. I take them for what they've stated.

That's fine. Just curious, do you also decide who you vote for as a President based on what they put on a flyer?

Are you sure? If you're so curious about it, have you called them?

Actually I sent an email to them inviting them over to read the thread and participate if they so wish. That way we can hear directly from them and not assume anything. Like Mst. Sullivan, I personally do not care either way. I have no desire for a HKD BB, nor do I have the qualifications to achieve one anytime soon.

Semantics and word games on your part to divert the topic. Whatever you may consider as SD for KKW schools...it probably isn't full-fledged Hapkido. Do you disagree?

No it is not semantics. Nor am I trying to divert from the topic. You asked a question I answered it. I teach Kukkiwon Taekwondo. There is no art that is Kukkiwon Sport Taekwondo. As for KKW TKD schools not teaching full fledge HKD, each school is different. I would say for the a vast majority that statement may hold true. However, there are schools that do teach a full HKD curriculum and are KKW schools. Since I have not been in every KKW school that also teaches HKD, I cannot give a definitive answer.

Have you actually read the flyer? To begin with, it is a flyer to TKD schools in general. Nothing in the flyer denotes a specific school, being taught a specific curriculum. One again...a TKD school, not a HKD school. And though HKD 'stuff' may have been taught, it wasn't 'uniquely recognized' as HKD. That's pretty general, and it is a stretch to even suggest any of them have been learning IHF HKD Jeremy. You know that, I know that and so does everyone else reading this thread. What HKD 'stuff' is taught at one TKD school may and will differ from what is taught at another TKD school. You can have no definitive standard on what was taught, who it was taught by or how to test for it.

Yes, have you bothered to look into anything passed the flyer? The flyer is buried inside of a school website in their events section. A school, I will add, that teaches HKD. Did you even go that far prior to posting?

Now if you want to open up an investigation on GM Won, who is the head instructor, and question him about his HKD knowledge feel free.

Yet somehow a person is now able to get a BB, possibly higher than 1st Dan after learning some HKD 'stuff' in their TKD school and taking a two-day seminar.

Perhaps you need to reread the flyer. The flyer states that you can take a black belt test. It does not say anywhere that you can just automatically test for a 2nd or 3rd dan. It does say that those who took AND passed the black belt exam last year are eligible to test this year for their next rank. Which, as I stated earlier is not unheard of. Even your IKSDA lists that you only need 1 year TIG from 1st to 2nd dan.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Let's take a look at this for a moment Daniel. Okay, the TKD'in has received HKD training beyond just some 'stuff' tossed into the class. Let's now say that HKD training is pretty much the same as any HKD'in would get at a HKD school. Here's are the questions...who is teaching them HKD? And why did he/she not rank them in HKD themselves? Did they not have HKD rank themselves? In that case, why are they teaching HKD?

You'd have to ask them that; I'm sure that they'd have their own story. As I recall, you consider yourself to be a hapkidoist even though you hold no formal grade in hapkido. I'm not going to speculate if you are or aren't; I've never trained with you, so I have no basis to evaluate what you do. But if its good enough for you, then why would it not be good enough for someone else?

Edit: There was a discussion here some time back about the value of Kukkiwon rank. Someone here trained under a high dan instructor who was no longer issuing KKW grade; only in house grade. A situation like that certainly would put someone in such a position as well. And yet, Puunui's statement that an instructor should issue the same certifications he was given was not at all well received.

And that's the funny thing about rank outside of an organization or about training for which rank has not been awarded; when it applies to ourselves, it makes perfect sense and we get defensive when people question our training or whether or not what we practice is legitimate. And yet, when we are on the outside looking in, it is very easy for us to raise the same questions that made us uncomfortable.

And I do speak first hand: my HKD and kendo grades are not with any recognized organization. They are dojang and dojo dans respectively, and I have found myself on the defensive. So I try not to be too quick to judge the grades of others.

How would you consider the HKD taught by this 'instructor' as quality HKD?

Sight unseen? I have basis for consideration.

How would it differ from school to school? Again, look at the flyer, it is going out to Grandmasters, Masters, Instructors and black belts. That appears pretty general. I don't see it as specific to any small group, being taught a specific HKD curriculum. Do you think they'd turn anyone away? Seriously.

I have no idea who it went to as I don't have the distribution list of the sender. As to whether or not they'd turn anyone away, well that is the wrong question. Why should they turn people away from the seminar. The question is what the criteria for grading is, what the expected pass/fail is, and how that compares to a conventional testing.

You may recall that the Kukkiwon held a special testing a couple of years ago and they were slammed for it prior to it happening, but many of the people who showed up for the testing failed for the grades that they were testing for.

So as I stated to Jeremy, I think it is a real stretch to even suggest that this is meant for TKD schools that have had in-depth and continuous HKD training...by someone with no HKD rank...that can't certify them himself or give them any rank.

Nobody would be speculating on this whatsoever had you not posted it. As for whether or not its a stretch for him to suggest it? It isn't that big of a stretch. I'd call it being careful not jump to hard conclusions based on a flier that some guy randomly posted on an bulletin board.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The flyer states that you can take a black belt test. It does not say anywhere that you can just automatically test for a 2nd or 3rd dan.

It states that it is a combination of your TKD BB rank and what you can demonstrate on the test. First, HKD testing should have nothing to do with your TKD rank. Second, by stating it is a combination of your TKD rank and what you do on the test indicates that it can be beyond just a first Dan. Otherwise, why list it as a combination of two things?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As I recall, you consider yourself to be a hapkidoist even though you hold no formal grade in hapkido.

I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.

I'd call it being careful not jump to hard conclusions based on a flier that some guy randomly posted on an bulletin board.

That's fine. I'm not telling anyone what to think of the flyer. It says what it says and members can form their own opinions. If they wish to dig deeper, they can do that as well. If a HMK rep would like to come in and discuss the flier that would be great. I think it's pretty straight-forward.

The stance that this is a HMK-only flier doesn't hold much water though. I received it from a HKD instructor who isn't a HMK TKD member who received it from someone that also isn't a HKD TKD member. At some point, the flier was sent out and others, outside of HMK TKD were included. But for grins, I'll contact them to find out definitively.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.

No, it was you; it was in one the many sparring matches between Puunui and yourself. Been long enough that I don't recall the exact details though.

Are you ranked in hapkido through a hapkido organization (if so, who) or are ranked through the IKSDA?
No value judgement regardless of your answer, but if your hapkido grade is through the IKSDA, then one could ask the same questions of you and you would be in the group that the seminar was aimed towards.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

And I do speak first hand: my HKD and kendo grades are not with any recognized organization. They are dojang and dojo dans respectively, and I have found myself on the defensive. So I try not to be too quick to judge the grades of others.

I just saw your edit. For the record Daniel, I think a certificate of rank from your instructor (i.e. Dojo/Dojang) far outweighs an organizational certificate. They are the one that trained you personally and know what you can/cannot do personally. You should not be defensive in the least about your Dojang ranks.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No, it was you; it was in one the many sparring matches between Puunui and yourself. Been long enough that I don't recall the exact details though.

Are you ranked in hapkido through a hapkido organization (if so, who) or are ranked through the IKSDA?
No value judgement regardless of your answer, but if your hapkido grade is through the IKSDA, then one could ask the same questions of you and you would be in the group that the seminar was aimed towards.

It is both a Dojang and an HKD organization. It is not the IKSDA, that is for KSD only.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I just saw your edit. For the record Daniel, I think a certificate of rank from your instructor (i.e. Dojo/Dojang) far outweighs an organizational certificate. They are the one that trained you personally and know what you can/cannot do personally. You should not be defensive in the least about your Dojang ranks.

To an extent, I agree. I think a lot of it depends on the art.

But for some people, they feel that they need to have the support of an organization in order to be taken seriously, and they don't want to go the rout of a paper-mill. Something like what is presented in this flier gives them the opportunity to do an actual test and be ranked with a legitimate organization.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It is both a Dojang and an HKD organization. It is not the IKSDA, that is for KSD only.

Which hapkido organization?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

To an extent, I agree. I think a lot of it depends on the art.

But for some people, they feel that they need to have the support of an organization in order to be taken seriously, and they don't want to go the rout of a paper-mill. Something like what is presented in this flier gives them the opportunity to do an actual test and be ranked with a legitimate organization.

This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach? Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org. Or whether or not you belong to one at all? I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.

As far as my HKD org, does it matter? It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter? He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter? What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD? Have I ever used it in SD? How many times and what was the outcome? That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it. Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist. Can I teach? How well do I teach? Those are the types of questions that should be asked. For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday. I won, he lost. That speaks more than paper. That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.

As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD? Not really. More power to them. What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense. But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.

 

[zDom]

As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD? Not really.

I do.

If this is indeed the case, it is a bunch of crap.

How would they like it if someone taught a weekend of TKD and passed out dan ranks? How would they like it if those ranks came with KKW certification?

Whatever.

 

[chrispillertkd]

How would they like it if someone taught a weekend of TKD and passed out dan ranks? How would they like it if those ranks came with KKW certification?

Such a thing would never happen. Being promoted multiple dan levels after a weekend seminar, that's something else, however

Pax,

Chris

 

[ETinCYQX]

I do.

If this is indeed the case, it is a bunch of crap.

How would they like it if someone taught a weekend of TKD and passed out dan ranks? How would they like it if those ranks came with KKW certification?

Whatever.

The wisdom locally is that a TKD practitioner of a certain rank can be loosely considered to be 2 keup/dan grades below that rank in Hapkido as well. That's because of the extensive self defense curriculum we teach which is derived entirely from HKD. How valid that is, I don't know. I would be interested to see where my knowledge is on the Hapkido side of things.

 

[troubleenuf]

This is similar to one of the things that led me to leave my instructor. He held a weekend seminar taught 12 techniques and promoted EVERYONE to black belt in Hapkido. Those people now claim to be Masters in Hapkido. They did the same thing for Kumdo, weekend seminar equals Black Belt. To me this just degrades their actual TKD training and tarnishes their legitimate black belt. These guys all now advertise that they are "Triple Masters" but I am pretty sure they couldnt pass a legitimate Black Belt test in either Hapkido or Kumdo. Of course the Grandmaster charged them $1500 each for the weekend seminar (that was for Black Belt... Im sure it was CONSIDERABLY more for the ranks above 1st Dan). A great money making racket for him. A shame that they all blindly followed along with it.