Need a HKD BB to go with your TKD BB?

[d1jinx]

How many times can we flog this dead, resurrected, killed again (several times) beast?

I doubt that there are many Kukkiwon taekwondoin here who applaud USAT-MAC for pushing the Kukkiwon to host the Special dan testing (http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/6615/KukkiwonTest-cf_1_13_09.pdf ) in 2009. I might even go a step further by asking you to identify any regular poster in this boards, who took part in that special test and continues to wave and tout their credentials obtained at the the same, in the fashion that you so vehemently condemn the event.

What was interesting about that testing -- which was opposed by very many Kukkiwon style taekwondoin around the world -- is the large number of people who failed, despite the actual, implied or alleged simplicity of the testing. Of course, we will never hear this from the founders of your system, which was founded in 2009, largely because its founders where and continue to be disgusted with the event. I think there are better ways to promote a fledgling organization dedicated to police and prison guard methods of street combat.

But my question is, why continue to post in the TKD section???? I mean after all its for Taekwondo-ist and not self started self promoted organizations who claim to be related yet better than the original.

 

[Haakon]

But we're not talking technique. Where talking about the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekend with the requirement of having a TKD BB. I don't have to have a HKD BB to be able to offer an opinion. Hell, I could have gotten my masters cert out of a bubble gum machine and still be able to offer an opinion as to the level of validity...

Anyway, I'm done with this diversion. Back to the topic please.

I earned 1st dan in TKD many years ago, and 1st dan in HKD about 2 years ago in my opinion someone could test for a HKD black belt after a weekend seminar, but they'd be a fool and I don't believe anyone would actually be qualified to pass the test with that little bit of training, not by a long shot. It would take longer than that for most people to even learn how to fall, much less learn an entire colored belt HKD curriculum. They both have similar blocks and kicks, but they're not applied the same way, after years of HKD I'm still trying to break, or change, TKD habits. Even something simple as a block are done differently, at least the way I was taught. In TKD a block is generally hard, snappy, rigid, "every block is also a strike", in HKD a block is used more to deflect and absorb a strike ready to follow it up with whatever fits, a strike, throw, lock. That's just one surface difference, I don't think after a mere weekend a TKD black belt is going to learn enough to be qualified for a 1st dan in HKD, not by a long shot.

Daniels idea of some kind of ho sin sool certification after a weekend I could go along with, with higher levels of certification for TKD trained people who have gone to multiple seminars, but not a dan ranking.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

you know the ironic thing, the OP (no names) pokes fun at GM Won for promoting such a seminar, yet per his words in the past, his taekwondo and hapkido "teacher", mike dunn, is allegedly a student of that teacher, GM Won, and supposedly got his hapkido rank from GM Won, through a program such as that.

Actually this is incorrect information, again. GM Dunn was under GM Won in TKD a couple of decades ago, basically running the school. To my knowledge, GM Won doesn't know or teach HKD, and GM Dunn received no HKD rank while at this school. That training and rank came later and was in no way associated with HMK TKD. How about a constructive post that's on topic, rather than false information.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

BTW, this is an example of why I don't like to name instructors on a BBS. If certain people don't like your position on a certain topic they'll post made up crap about you or them in some juvenille attempt to make you look bad. I don't think its cool to drag them into stuff like this because some guy on a BBS doesn't like what I said in another thread.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

BTW, this is an example of why I don't like to name instructors on a BBS. If certain people don't like your position on a certain topic they'll post made up crap about you or them in some juvenille attempt to make you look bad. I don't think its cool to drag them into stuff like this because some guy on a BBS doesn't like what I said in another thread.

which is precisely why I never mention where I train. I have seen far too may reputable orgs, instructors, GMs etc get roasted on boards such as these just because their opinions differ to someone elses.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong? On the one hand, you are questioning the legitimacy of a/an group/instructor without seeing first hand what they are physically capable of, but telling anyone who asks you a question that they must see you first hand to pass any judgement.

I didn't think Daniel Sullivan (or whoever it was) was trying to "call you out" by asking about your Hapkido background. You seem to be questioning the legitimacy of an organization's testing/rank policy, so it seems to me a natural question to ask about your Hapkido background to understand where you are coming from, but by appearing to be evasive in response to the question, you invite further questions. I know you previously experienced some threads in which people questioned your background (and I am not questioning your background), so that may be playing into the defensive tone of your posts here.

You are correct. I wasn't calling him out at all, and I made that very clear.

Readers of his responses may draw their own conclusions from them.

 

[Archtkd]

One of the key people at the organization hosting the quickie Hapkido black belt seminar -- http://www.komudokwan.com/hanmookwan.html -- is described as having a pending "International Referee classificatio," but he is certified as "Supreme Referee, which is the highest level," under his teacher, who "is one of the few in the U.S. who holds the 1st Class WTF International Referee Classification."

I usually advise anybody willing to listen to run as far away as possible from folks who use titles like "pending" something, or "Supreme Referee." What's unfortunate is that we point at the people who hold such titles and use them as the prime example of what's wrong with taekwondo. We hear horror stories from folks who've been burned by such teachers and assume and believe the whole system is rotten.

 

[miguksaram]

Daniel, with all due respect.....

Without having to quote your whole thread, this entire section is typical reply from you. You tend to get offensive when you are pressed about your martial art credentials. As Daniel has been very respectful in the way he has addressed you and even in asking about your background. He is correct though, if you are going to put things on the board like this, question the legitimacy, then you should be prepared to share a bit about your experience, including how many years you have studied the art in question, who you studied under, your rank, and sometime why you left, if you did.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Without having to quote your whole thread, this entire section is typical reply from you. You tend to get offensive when you are pressed about your martial art credentials. As Daniel has been very respectful in the way he has addressed you and even in asking about your background. He is correct though, if you are going to put things on the board like this, question the legitimacy, then you should be prepared to share a bit about your experience, including how many years you have studied the art in question, who you studied under, your rank, and sometime why you left, if you did.

Thank you Jeremy, and actually I have shared the details of my HKD training with people on this board. I've just chosen to do so via PM and not on the open board. As I've mentioned, some people, when they don't like what you post will take any information you've offered and try to dig up some sort of dirt for a 'gotcha post'. And when they can't find any...they make it up. Your guilty of this Jeremy. Then you've got to defend yourself or your instructor against something that was made up or a half-truth. And that goes on for a page or two then the thread gets closed. No thanks. So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM. For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Thank you Jeremy, and actually I have shared the details of my HKD training with people on this board. I've just chosen to do so via PM and not on the open board. As I've mentioned, some people, when they don't like what you post will take any information you've offered and try to dig up some sort of dirt for a 'gotcha post'. And when they can't find any...they make it up. Your guilty of this Jeremy. Then you've got to defend yourself or your instructor against something that was made up or a half-truth. And that goes on for a page or two then the thread gets closed. No thanks. So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM. For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.

You might want to kick it down a notch (or seven), given that this little gem right here on MT. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98993-Who-is-David-Schultz&highlight=david+shultz

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You might want to kick it down a notch (or seven), given that this little gem right here on MT. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98993-Who-is-David-Schultz&highlight=david+shultz

Why should that link bother me? Hey everyone, click on the link above in Daniels post. It's about me. Read it through completely though, not everything is accurate and I touched on that in one of my posts in the thread which I can back up as factual. If anyone has any questions about the thread or me then shoot me a PM.

 

[miguksaram]

....And when they can't find any...they make it up. Your guilty of this Jeremy.

I have cited information from other sources, but I do not recall making anything up about you. Can you please point this out?

So for serious members I'm an open book and ask me in PM. For people like you...well, let's see...I have no HKD experience...I got my master cert in a bubble gum machine along with a super-secret decoder ring... and you are free to totally disregard all of my posts.

This is what I am talking about. You are using this type of tactic to overshadow the question about your experience by playing some sort of victim here.

I have never said you did not have any HKD experience. If I did, can you please quote where I said this so I can refresh my memory and make any needed apologies, after verification of your experience of course.

I have never said you got your certificate from a bubble gum machine. Again, please point out the the place and quote where I have said this. I have called into question about your experience, based on a finding from another board, which we have discussed and since, at least I thought, put to rest. So please do not put words into my mouth or in this case do not put words in my posts.

You are not a victim here, you are the perp. You have thrown up a thread to judge the legitimacy of how another school/organization runs their ranking process in the art of Hapkido. It was done in a manner which was very judgmental, though I guess you do not see it that way. You refuse to contact the school directly and ask them for more information. Because you think everything is cut and dry on the flyer. A flyer that was posted on the school site in their events section, not posted on their front page, for their classes. You said yourself that it has been decades since GM Dunn was there. How can you even begin to know what has happened in GM Won's school since GM Dunn's departure, unless of course GM Dunn keeps communication up with GM Won and keeps you in the loop. The bottom line is you do not know, what you do not know.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Why should that link bother me? Hey everyone, click on the link above in Daniels post. It's about me. Read it through completely though, not everything is accurate and I touched on that in one of my posts in the thread which I can back up as factual. If anyone has any questions about the thread or me then shoot me a PM.

You mean like the PM you sent to GM Ji when you started that thread about him? Or the PM you sent to the organizers of this even you posted a thread about?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As a note, my associate emailed GM Won. I have my associates permission to quote his portion of the email;

Dear sir,

I'm inquiring about your upcoming Hapkido seminar in June. Would this be open for anyone in TKD or is it only members of the Han Mu Kwan? Additonally, is any prior experience necessary in Hapkido for attendence? Would you be permitted to test if you can demonstrate proficency from the seminar material? If so, how much is the testing after the seminar.

I will not post GM Won's response verbatim as I don't know the legalities of posting someone's portion of an email without seeking their permission. I don't see an issue with posting a paraphrased commentary of the response. The seminar is open to all ages and belt colors. A test following the seminar can be arranged upon request. The only requirement to test is a BB in TKD. The fee is $200, I'm assuming in addition to the cost of the seminar itself. My thanks to my associate for asking and GM Won for providing a response.

 

[miguksaram]

Here is what was asked and replied to in regards to this seminar:

Won Kwanjangnim,

Please allow me to introduce myself. My name is Jeremy Talbott. I am a member of a martial arts discussion board called Martial Talk. I am sorry to disturb you but a member posted a link to your hapkido seminar on the board. The reason why I am posting this is to get correct information on the seminar.

First of all I was wondering if the seminar was intended only for your students to know about or was it intended for anyone to join the seminar. For those wishing to test in a hapkido ranking, do they have to be members of your school or is it opened to anyone who attends the seminar? To test for a black belt rank, besides being a black belt in taekwondo, do you need to have experience in hapkido or only show proficiency from learning the seminar material to qualify?

I am sorry to bother you with these questions as I know you are a very busy man. I only wish to clear up the misunderstandings that some people may have in regards to your seminar.

GM Won's reply to the questions:

Thank you, for the information. The seminar is open to all ages and all belt colors, they do not have to be a member of our school. We do have a limited amount people that can apply, the limit is 40. For testing purposes, they must attend the seminar and prior experience would be preferred.

I sent the email today and received that reply within a couple of hours. I have invited him to come on to the board to help answer and clarify any additional questions people may have. Though I do not know if he will or not, he did ask for the direct link.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

For testing purposes, they must attend the seminar and prior experience would be preferred.

Then I propose that we have our answer looking at both replies; To test for a HKD BB, one must be a TKD BB and attend the seminar. Since experience is 'preferred' by default it is not necessary. Since it is not necessary, the only things that could reasonably be tested on is what is demonstrated in the weekend seminar. So, if one is a TKD BB and attends the seminar and can demonstrate proficiency in whatever material is presented during the two days then they can earn a HKD BB. And again, according to the flier, the rank they earn will be a combination of their current TKD BB rank and their demonstrated proficiency. I can only take this to mean that the earned rank may be higher than the first Dan.

 

[d1jinx]

Actually this is incorrect information, again. GM Dunn was under GM Won in TKD a couple of decades ago, basically running the school. To my knowledge, GM Won doesn't know or teach HKD, and GM Dunn received no HKD rank while at this school. That training and rank came later and was in no way associated with HMK TKD. How about a constructive post that's on topic, rather than false information.

I know you rounded up the posse and eagerly manned the keyboard awaiting my response, but i had grass to cut, a grille to fire up and some YUENGLING to drink. After all, I wont drink and post. could be reckless..

anyhow, I was mearly quoting the information I found while doing a simple search on YOUR posts and website.http://iksda.8m.com/rich_text_5.html If i was incorrect, then you may want to re-edit some of that or have it removed. Funny thing about the internet, it seems to have a lot of information. Funny thing is, it all seems to line up now and again. I mean, at some point there must be some truth to it, because I dont know you and have nothing against you but everything keep coming back to it.


And 1 more thing I found strange. Why would someone who had ever been mentioned or accused as a fraud and doing similiar things like attending seminars for rank and buying rank and making rank bring up the subject and throw rocks at someone else especially when you have a connection to them? A stranger maybe, but someone who ties to you and your "alleged" fraudulent rank??? Like it or not, you tied yourself to GM Dunn, who is tied to GM Won, even if it was 10-so years ago.

its screming "POT, you're Black" said the Kettle. Leave it alone and people like myself would not have viewed you as a hypocrit.

I think its like you said, the authors have thier own veiws and agendas and so much info is out there trying to correct the info already out there, that one must filter through it to find the truth. (of course i paraphased) well, reading your comments, I tend to believe more and more....

 

[Kong Soo Do]

anyhow, I was mearly quoting the information I found while doing a simple search on YOUR posts and website.http://iksda.8m.com/rich_text_5.html If i was incorrect, then you may want to re-edit some of that or have it removed.

Have what removed? You stated that GM Dunn received rank from GM Won in HKD after a weekend seminar such as is being discussed in this thread. Where is that posted on our website linked above? Or anywhere in any of my posts? The link above doesn't even talk about HKD. So post your documentation that what you stated on this open board is factual...or admit that you lied. You can't have it both ways.

1 more thing I found strange. Why would someone who had ever been mentioned or accused as a fraud and doing similiar things like attending seminars for rank and buying rank and making rank bring up the subject and throw rocks at someone else especially when you have a connection to them?

Same thing as above. I don't recall anyone saying I attended a seminar for rank, or that I bought rank or that I've made up rank. I've attended lots of seminars, none of them had rank associated with it. I've never, ever paid for rank. I've never paid for a BB test. My instructors, like myself do NOT charge for a BB test. And my rank is not made up. I'm ranked by a real person, 1st through 7th. So either provide your documentation to support your accusations, posted on this open board...or admit you lied. Show which seminar I got rank at. Show who I've bought rank from. Show where my rank is 'made up'....or admit you lied.

 

[jks9199]

Congratulations. Another closed thread in the Korean Arts.

While the staff reviews this one, too, I strongly encourage a review of the Rules. Really. READ THEM. HEED THEM.

Staff patience is wearing very thin.

jks9199
Assistant Adminstrator