Need a HKD BB to go with your TKD BB?

[Daniel Sullivan]

This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach? Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org. Or whether or not you belong to one at all? I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.

It depends on what one is trying to evaluate.

As far as my HKD org, does it matter? It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter? He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter? What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD? Have I ever used it in SD? How many times and what was the outcome? That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it. Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist. Can I teach? How well do I teach? Those are the types of questions that should be asked. For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday. I won, he lost. That speaks more than paper. That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.

I'd say yes, it matters.

If you're willing to take swipes at the Kukkiwon/WTF, if you're willing to post things like this and call attention to another hapkido organization, and if you're willing go after a long standing hapkido GM (GM Ji) and question his qualifications, you should be willing to share your own.

While you're not obligated to share your hkd org., it certainly does undermine your credibility; if you didn't share any organizational information at all, I'd say that you're consistent. However, you are ready, willing and able to promote your KSD organization, so that is an inconsistency. If you're willing to tell people who you're ranked with in one art, why hide who you're ranked in in another? Especially given that you aren't shy about posting in the hapkido section.

If you don't want to share, then you don't want to share, and I'm not going to press the issue any further. But your comment above would lead many reading it to question whether you are being honest about having a hapkido background, as it reads like something a politician would say when they don't want to answer an uncomfortable question.

As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD? Not really. More power to them. What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense. But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.

The only way to answer that is to put in for some time off, dent your visa or master card and go to the seminar and see first hand.

Unless you (or anyone else) are willing to do that, then anything that we say about it is speculation. Given that the organization in question is the one that my hapkido lineage is through, it does raise my eyebrows. But since I'm not willing to go to Oklahoma to investigate first hand, I'll stick with what I've said about it thus far and go no further.

 

[Archtkd]

I believe your thinking of someone else. I do have formal HKD rank.



That's fine. I'm not telling anyone what to think of the flyer. It says what it says and members can form their own opinions. If they wish to dig deeper, they can do that as well. If a HMK rep would like to come in and discuss the flier that would be great. I think it's pretty straight-forward.

The stance that this is a HMK-only flier doesn't hold much water though. I received it from a HKD instructor who isn't a HMK TKD member who received it from someone that also isn't a HKD TKD member. At some point, the flier was sent out and others, outside of HMK TKD were included. But for grins, I'll contact them to find out definitively.

I thought Kong Soo Do, your system (or its founders) had lineage in Han Moo Kwan, which is the same lineage as that of the founders of the non-Kukkiwon affiliated U.S. Central Taekwondo Association, the organization which is hosting the Hapkido seminar.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is similar to one of the things that led me to leave my instructor. He held a weekend seminar taught 12 techniques and promoted EVERYONE to black belt in Hapkido. Those people now claim to be Masters in Hapkido. They did the same thing for Kumdo, weekend seminar equals Black Belt. To me this just degrades their actual TKD training and tarnishes their legitimate black belt. These guys all now advertise that they are "Triple Masters" but I am pretty sure they couldnt pass a legitimate Black Belt test in either Hapkido or Kumdo. Of course the Grandmaster charged them $1500 each for the weekend seminar (that was for Black Belt... Im sure it was CONSIDERABLY more for the ranks above 1st Dan). A great money making racket for him. A shame that they all blindly followed along with it.

I saw a school go from having a great deal of integrity to this kind of nonsense a while back. Interestingly, in hapkido and kumdo.

 

[oftheherd1]

The wisdom locally is that a TKD practitioner of a certain rank can be loosely considered to be 2 keup/dan grades below that rank in Hapkido as well. That's because of the extensive self defense curriculum we teach which is derived entirely from HKD. How valid that is, I don't know. I would be interested to see where my knowledge is on the Hapkido side of things.

I don't know your school's teachings, so it is difficult for me to comment. But in general I would say that doesn't make sense to me. It makes it sound like you should all be dual belted. That is possible, but very unusual to mix all those things together at one time. Does your school in fact dual belt? Are your teachers also belted in Hapkido? Why isn't your SD upped just a notch so all can be dual belted, by teachers who are themselves qualified in both Hapkido and TKD? It just seems if you have legitimate Hapkido belted teachers they should be able to test and award Hapkido rank as well.

All that said, if your school is teaching TKD and Hapkido, it sounds like it is neither TKD nor a Hapkido school, but a very interesting school.

 

[oftheherd1]

This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach? Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org. Or whether or not you belong to one at all? I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.

Traditionally, no. The legitimacy of a teacher to teach an art, his ability to teach, and his background are indeed important. An organization that doesn't well manage its belting system calls it belting system into question.

As far as my HKD org, does it matter? It is backed by a Korean GM...but does that matter? He's legite and one of the original seniors...but does it matter? What does matter is, can I use Hapkido for SD? Have I ever used it in SD? How many times and what was the outcome? That would speak more to my Hapkido skills than would a piece of paper with a certain persons name on it. Or what I wear (or in my case, don't wear) around my waist. Can I teach? How well do I teach? Those are the types of questions that should be asked. For the record, the last time I used Hapkido (or Kong Soo Do) against a real person, who was determined, violent and resisting was last Monday. I won, he lost. That speaks more than paper. That isn't me patting myself on the back, the same goes for anyone.

To other martial artists, it usually does matter who someone has studied under, or rather that the school and teacher were themselves legitimate. With so many McDojos, those of us who have earned our BB the traditional way, tend to think others should have done so as well to earn our acceptance. Your evasion as to your teacher and school affiliation, for whatever reason, may have a tendency to make people wonder why you are evasive. Is there something about your teacher and/or ranking that you think others would not accept?

As far as the thread, do I really care if a bunch of TKD guys/gals get a BB in HKD without really having trained in HKD? Not really. More power to them. What I actually care about is that whatever they've learned is practical and can really be used in self-defense. But it is interesting to see what others are going to say.

I care. First because if they haven't trained, how can what they have learned be practical? If they have a very limited set of tools, their SD will also be limited. Sold as a seminar of limited Hapkido techniques, it would be OK. But to imply they are experienced, belted, Hapkido practitioners from 14 hours of training, insults my training and ranking.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It depends on what one is trying to evaluate.

Daniel, with all due respect, that is just a pure crap answer from you and frankly I expect better from you. What else would you evaluate from someone other than what their level of skill is or, if they teach, their ability to teach. Evaluating what they have hanging on their wall, or what they wear around their waist doesn't speak to either of those things with all the nonsense that goes on in the arts these days. This thread, and others shared experiences speak to this fact.

If you're willing to take swipes at the Kukkiwon/WTF, if you're willing to post things like this and call attention to another hapkido organization, and if you're willing go after a long standing hapkido GM (GM Ji) and question his qualifications, you should be willing to share your own.

Let's take a look at your complaint; I don't take swipes at KKW/WTF TKD. I speak on my experience and opinion with and of them. I comment factually based upon that experience and I'm straight-forward with my opinion of what it is, and what it is not. I haven't 'gone after' any long standing GM, I've asked questions and put forth opinions and further questions based upon the information and answers presented. Any questionable circumstanced they may or may not have in their background has nothing to do with my background or any organization to which I may belong.

I suggest you try a bit more consistency. From now on, in each and every thread in which someone posts something that upsets you, be sure to ask each and every person their instructors name, what organization they belong to, how long they train and all the other usual thread-diverting questions. Don't just save it for those that don't agree with you all the time.

While you're not obligated to share your hkd org., it certainly does undermine your credibility...

Why? I can't have an opinion or make an observation without first stating my background for your approval? Does that apply to everyone in this thread? Do they need to first state their training history, rank(s) achieved and any organization they belong to before they post in this or any other thread? My HKD org has nothing to do with this thread. Nor does anybody elses HKD org, with the possible exception of you since you belong to the org in question?

However, you are ready, willing and able to promote your KSD organization...

Have I? I don't remember talking about the IKSDA that much except when asked. In the last year I posted two free seminars open to MT members if they were interested.

How about you stick to the topic of the thread Daniel and let's see where it takes us. Think you can do that?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I thought Kong Soo Do, your system (or its founders) had lineage in Han Moo Kwan, which is the same lineage as that of the founders of the non-Kukkiwon affiliated U.S. Central Taekwondo Association, the organization which is hosting the Hapkido seminar.

One of the founders has lineage through the HMK, that is from over two decades ago and the affiliation ended then. Not associated with USCTA.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Traditionally, no. The legitimacy of a teacher to teach an art, his ability to teach, and his background are indeed important. An organization that doesn't well manage its belting system calls it belting system into question.

So you're answer was 'yes', as this is what I was stating.

To other martial artists, it usually does matter who someone has studied under, or rather that the school and teacher were themselves legitimate.

And this is incorrect thinking on their part. A person could train under the best instructor in the world and still suck. A person could train under a no or low ranked 'nobody' and be able to beat the snot out of real bad guys. Your instructor doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist. Your organization doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist. Let's say for a moment that the topic of this thread is two legitimate organizations doing something that perhaps isn't quite legitimate. Let's say you take the seminar and take the test and with very little actual HKD knowledge you get a HKD BB. Does that make you reputable and legitimate as an actual HKD BB since those two organizations are 'legitimate' to most people? Does their alledged legitimacy simply cover you like a warm blanket? If this Korean GM is 'legitimate' does that automatically make you legitimate with this HKD BB rank he gives you? Seriously people...does it!?!

I'll say it straight out and if it chaps people's hides then so be it. Your instructor and/or organization has absolutely nothing to do with how proficent you (general you) are going to be as a martial artist. Those that resort, on internet boards or elsewhere, to asking these types of questions about people in order to evaluate a persons personal legitimacy/ability don't have clue or are simply trying to take the thread off topic and down a rabbit hole...or both. My instructor(s) aren't in this thread talking about the topic. My organization isn't in this thread talking about the topic. I'm the one in this thread talking about this topic. If you want to know what I know and see what my level of experience is in an area of the martial arts then I invite you (general you) to come visit me personally. Evaluate me firsthand and then feel free to report back to the MT membership everything you've discovered. I stand on my own merits, not on the merits of whose name is on a piece of paper in a folder somewhere in my cabinet. Anyone that stands on the merits of another's name, quite frankly is a putz.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Let's take a look at your complaint; I don't take swipes at KKW/WTF TKD. I speak on my experience and opinion with and of them. I comment factually based upon that experience and I'm straight-forward with my opinion of what it is, and what it is not.

With all due respect, I would characterize your comment regarding the Kukkiwon special testing "taking a swipe" at Kukkiwon. If not, how would you characterize your comment?

 

[Jaeimseu]

So you're answer was 'yes', as this is what I was stating.




And this is incorrect thinking on their part. A person could train under the best instructor in the world and still suck. A person could train under a no or low ranked 'nobody' and be able to beat the snot out of real bad guys. Your instructor doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist. Your organization doesn't reflect on what you can do as a martial artist. Let's say for a moment that the topic of this thread is two legitimate organizations doing something that perhaps isn't quite legitimate. Let's say you take the seminar and take the test and with very little actual HKD knowledge you get a HKD BB. Does that make you reputable and legitimate as an actual HKD BB since those two organizations are 'legitimate' to most people? Does their alledged legitimacy simply cover you like a warm blanket? If this Korean GM is 'legitimate' does that automatically make you legitimate with this HKD BB rank he gives you? Seriously people...does it!?!

I'll say it straight out and if it chaps people's hides then so be it. Your instructor and/or organization has absolutely nothing to do with how proficent you (general you) are going to be as a martial artist. Those that resort, on internet boards or elsewhere, to asking these types of questions about people in order to evaluate a persons personal legitimacy/ability don't have clue or are simply trying to take the thread off topic and down a rabbit hole...or both. My instructor(s) aren't in this thread talking about the topic. My organization isn't in this thread talking about the topic. I'm the one in this thread talking about this topic. If you want to know what I know and see what my level of experience is in an area of the martial arts then I invite you (general you) to come visit me personally. Evaluate me firsthand and then feel free to report back to the MT membership everything you've discovered. I stand on my own merits, not on the merits of whose name is on a piece of paper in a folder somewhere in my cabinet. Anyone that stands on the merits of another's name, quite frankly is a putz.

You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong? On the one hand, you are questioning the legitimacy of a/an group/instructor without seeing first hand what they are physically capable of, but telling anyone who asks you a question that they must see you first hand to pass any judgement.

I didn't think Daniel Sullivan (or whoever it was) was trying to "call you out" by asking about your Hapkido background. You seem to be questioning the legitimacy of an organization's testing/rank policy, so it seems to me a natural question to ask about your Hapkido background to understand where you are coming from, but by appearing to be evasive in response to the question, you invite further questions. I know you previously experienced some threads in which people questioned your background (and I am not questioning your background), so that may be playing into the defensive tone of your posts here.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

With all due respect, I would characterize your comment regarding the Kukkiwon special testing "taking a swipe" at Kukkiwon. If not, how would you characterize your comment?

By stating it for what it is, and is not. Some get offended if you think people should actually need to be present at a testing. Or they get offended if you think that a master's test should consist of something more than 1 minute of sparring and two forms. Or if you see it as questionable skipping multiple ranks as long as the highest three are paid for in advance. That isn't a swipe, that is an opinion based upon the information in the special testing flier.

You seem to be taking a contradictory stance here, or am I reading you wrong?

Going only on the flier, as presented, it appears that a person can test for a HKD BB after two days worth of training as long as they have a TKD BB and pass the test. I find that suspect, at best. Looking back at the thread, it appears that people with no HKD training have offered their opinion. Is that okay? There have been people who haven't offered one way or the other whether or not they have HKD training. Is that okay? There are those that have HKD training, and I haven't seen them asked what their organization is or why it would matter. Is that okay? I have nothing to hide, but I'm standing on principle and calling out this form of BS from a few that go this route when the conversation gets hot or they aren't getting the answers they want. Simple as that. I have master ranking in HKD from an actual instructor in HKD. Got a real nice cert and everything with his signature. He isn't here on the board...I am. I'm speaking for me. The organization is run by an actual Korean GM that is pretty well known. He probably doesn't even know this board exists. He isn't speaking for me, I'm speaking for myself. So it doesn't matter whether I know anything about HKD or if I have a HKD BB or if I have master ranking or who my instructor is or what org I may or may not belong to. I stand on my own responses and they can be accepted or disregarded as the reader sees fit.

Put another way, I doesn't matter whether I test for my next promotion in HKD in a few years or throw all my certs out the window today. My experience is my own and is the subject matter of the content of my posts. Rather than ask me who my instructor is, ask me what I know about HKD. Ask me if I've ever actually used it against a real bad guy. Those types of question will give you (general you) more insight into why I take the postion(s) I have in my posts. I hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Let me see if I can explain this another way; I detest people that ride the coat tails of other people. I detest people that name drop as though it reflects something on themselves or their ability. Too me, those people are 'all show and no go'. That is my viewpoint. The instructor that promoted me last in HKD is one I sought out due to his ability as well as his well known and well respected reputation. But he isn't here and I don't speak for him. I speak for myself. I'm not 'special' just because of who he is or what he's done. Whether or not I suck or whether I'm competent is based upon my effort more than his teaching ability. Same for the Korean GM who heads the organization. He's a well-known 'senior'. So what? Doesn't mean I know jack. I've got a real nice masters cert. So what? Lots of people do and they don't know jack. If I'm talking about how to do an outside wrist takedown and say it is done by jumping up and kicking the guy in the head then you can surmiss I don't know jack about how to do an outside wrist takedown and thus I don't know jack about HKD.

But we're not talking technique. Where talking about the validity of testing for a HKD BB after a weekend with the requirement of having a TKD BB. I don't have to have a HKD BB to be able to offer an opinion. Hell, I could have gotten my masters cert out of a bubble gum machine and still be able to offer an opinion as to the level of validity...

Anyway, I'm done with this diversion. Back to the topic please.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, with all due respect, that is just a pure crap answer from you and frankly I expect better from you. What else would you evaluate from someone other than what their level of skill is or, if they teach, their ability to teach. Evaluating what they have hanging on their wall, or what they wear around their waist doesn't speak to either of those things with all the nonsense that goes on in the arts these days. This thread, and others shared experiences speak to this fact.



Let's take a look at your complaint; I don't take swipes at KKW/WTF TKD. I speak on my experience and opinion with and of them. I comment factually based upon that experience and I'm straight-forward with my opinion of what it is, and what it is not. I haven't 'gone after' any long standing GM, I've asked questions and put forth opinions and further questions based upon the information and answers presented. Any questionable circumstanced they may or may not have in their background has nothing to do with my background or any organization to which I may belong.

I suggest you try a bit more consistency. From now on, in each and every thread in which someone posts something that upsets you, be sure to ask each and every person their instructors name, what organization they belong to, how long they train and all the other usual thread-diverting questions. Don't just save it for those that don't agree with you all the time.




Why? I can't have an opinion or make an observation without first stating my background for your approval? Does that apply to everyone in this thread? Do they need to first state their training history, rank(s) achieved and any organization they belong to before they post in this or any other thread? My HKD org has nothing to do with this thread. Nor does anybody elses HKD org, with the possible exception of you since you belong to the org in question?



Have I? I don't remember talking about the IKSDA that much except when asked. In the last year I posted two free seminars open to MT members if they were interested.

How about you stick to the topic of the thread Daniel and let's see where it takes us. Think you can do that?

For one, I had no complaint. If you chose to view it as one, then that is your perception. You asked if it mattered. I said yes and did you the courtesy of telling you why it mattered. If that bothers you, then my apologies.

As for ready willing and able to promote your KSD org, and its fine that you do, you do so in threads when you have discussed it and you promote it in your signatures, just as I do my own studio.

If you think my answer is crap, then so be it, but it is my answer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This drifts the thread a bit, which is fine, but wouldn't it really boil down to what you can demonstrate and/or teach? Wouldn't that be more of a factor for legitimacy-testing than whether or not you belong to this or that org. Or whether or not you belong to one at all? I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.

If you want a more in depth answer, then here it is.

If I am evaluating your general technical skill, my evaluation will be different than if I am evaluating your knowledge of my organization's curriculum. So from that perspective, the organization does matter.

An organization differentiates itself from other organizations most often by a difference in technical content. If you're doing Bujinkan material at an IHF grading, yes, it makes a difference. Because while your Bujinkan stuff might be great, it isn't hapkido, and specifically, it isn't IHF hapkido.

There is usually something different from organization to organization in how techniques are executed. Look at how a roundhouse kick differs between Shotokan and Kukkiwon. If you do all of your techniques 'taekwondo' at a Shotokan grading, wouldn't you think that it would make a difference?

Also, if I am evaluating them for a first dan, I will be looking at different things than if I am evaluating them for a license to teach the art.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I don't know your school's teachings, so it is difficult for me to comment. But in general I would say that doesn't make sense to me. It makes it sound like you should all be dual belted. That is possible, but very unusual to mix all those things together at one time. Does your school in fact dual belt? Are your teachers also belted in Hapkido? Why isn't your SD upped just a notch so all can be dual belted, by teachers who are themselves qualified in both Hapkido and TKD? It just seems if you have legitimate Hapkido belted teachers they should be able to test and award Hapkido rank as well.

All that said, if your school is teaching TKD and Hapkido, it sounds like it is neither TKD nor a Hapkido school, but a very interesting school.

No official HKD rank I am aware of, and it isn't issued.

Our self defense includes arm locks, wrist locks, grappling sparring, even live rolling, etc. It's a nice thing to have added.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If I am evaluating your general technical skill, my evaluation will be different than if I am evaluating your knowledge of my organization's curriculum. So from that perspective, the organization does matter.

An organization differentiates itself from other organizations most often by a difference in technical content.

I can think of quite a number of people that belong to a 'legitimate' organization that don't really know much about the art they profess to be a master in.

From my perspective, I am less interested in an organization's technical nuance than I am whether the principle/techniqe/movement is a sound one against a violent, resisting attacker. Although very effective SD principles/techniques/movements can be learned in a short amount of time, such as a weekend seminar, I doubt that this would be the case with this particular seminar. As I've mentioned repeatedly, I doubt that any HMK TKD school in attendance (or any other school attending) has the same technical foundation. Thus, the 'test' involved could likely only cover what was demonstrated in a 2-day seminar. Thus, regardless of what may or may not be known prior, the full spectrum of what most would likely consider 'Hapkido' could not have been covered. Certainly not to a 1st Dan level (or beyond according to the flier).

Unless we are to assume that each an every TKD school in attendance has also trained their students to within two days of a HKD BB test, using the same organizational technical nuances as each other, thereby providing the proper foundation for a comprehensive, standardized test. Would anyone like to make this assumption? I wouldn't.

 

[Archtkd]

One of the founders has lineage through the HMK, that is from over two decades ago and the affiliation ended then. Not associated with USCTA.

Thanks for clarifying. Maybe it's time to let bygone be bygones.

 

[oftheherd1]

I have been thinking about this quite a bit, before and after I read Kong Soo Do's other thread about telling our organization. I have some sympathy for the view that a person should be able to demonstrate their own abilities, and be able to stand on that.. I do understand that a lot of good teachers in all arts are not world famous, so naming a particular teacher, who might be very capable as both a practitioner and a teacher, might mean nothing to others. That teacher would likely be well known within his own organization's other senior teachers, but not necessarily outside of his organization, and certainly not outside of his art. Not many really great masters and grandmasters become world famous.

I still think it is not wrong to acknowledge your teacher when asked. Or your organization. Not doing so raises flags in many people's minds. It doesn't mean a person hasn't gone through a rigorous period of training and testing and hasn't earned what they claim, but not doing so just makes people wonder why not. I am very proud of studying under GM Lee Chong Moon (or Yi Chong Mun). He was my teacher and a friend. His Kwan was Soong Moo Kwan. Our patch said Korean Hapkido Association. My BB certificates say korean Hapkido Federation. I never questioned that, I guess I just assumed it was differences in different people's translations. I was more interested in what he was teaching and what I could learn than how an organization assembled itself. It never occurred to me there might be other organizations that had or claimed legitimacy. What was important to me was my GM's abilities that he had and that he was able to teach successfully. I will always speak of studying under him with pride. Not that I am or ever thought I was so good, but that he thought I was, to the level he promoted me.

Kong Soo Do says he should be evaluated on his own abilities. That is hard to argue against. But on a forum it is difficult to demonstrate one's abilities, only to talk about them. Mind you, Kong Soo Do speaks well, and as one who knows what he is speaking about. I have no facts to say he isn't just what he says he is, so I take him at his word. But he did not learn all by himself. He had one or more teachers. Unless there is some reason they don't want to be identified with a person, I think they deserve the respect and honor we give them when we acknowledge them.

I don't know why Kong Soo Do is disinclined to give his teacher(s) name(s). As long as it isn't false pride, I guess it isn't my business; well really, even if it is false pride. That is something he will have to deal with and live with. If it is for some other reason, I will leave that with him to explain when he feels like it ... or not. I will continue to evaluate what he says on its merits as I do with all posters here. So far I have no problems and actually agree with most of what he says.

Kong Soo Do, in the other thread, says he has often identified his teachers. I think I do remember him talking about his Kong Soo Do instructors, but not his Hapkido teachers. Kong Soo Do, if I am wrong, my apologies. You have posted a fair amount, and within any thread, you often post a lot of information. I may have missed it or forgotten it if I wasn't familiar with the name. My not being familiar with the name would not invalidate what your teacher taught nor invalidate any ranking he awarded you. I expect you do not know my teacher's name unless you noted it when I posted about his passing. One last thing. In the other thread you say you think some who comment on your qualifications are trolls. I hope you don;t include me in that. I assure you I am not,. And I hope I have not come across that way to you or anyone else.

With all that said, for me, the matter of Kong Soo Do's qualifications are a closed matter absent some strong proof he is not what he claims to be.

Just my two cents.

 

[Archtkd]

By stating it for what it is, and is not. Some get offended if you think people should actually need to be present at a testing. Or they get offended if you think that a master's test should consist of something more than 1 minute of sparring and two forms. Or if you see it as questionable skipping multiple ranks as long as the highest three are paid for in advance. That isn't a swipe, that is an opinion based upon the information in the special testing flier.

How many times can we flog this dead, resurrected, killed again (several times) beast?

I doubt that there are many Kukkiwon taekwondoin here who applaud USAT-MAC for pushing the Kukkiwon to host the Special dan testing (http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/documents/attached_file/filename/6615/KukkiwonTest-cf_1_13_09.pdf ) in 2009. I might even go a step further by asking you to identify any regular poster in this boards, who took part in that special test and continues to wave and tout their credentials obtained at the the same, in the fashion that you so vehemently condemn the event.

What was interesting about that testing -- which was opposed by very many Kukkiwon style taekwondoin around the world -- is the large number of people who failed, despite the actual, implied or alleged simplicity of the testing. Of course, we will never hear this from the founders of your system, which was founded in 2009, largely because its founders where and continue to be disgusted with the event. I think there are better ways to promote a fledgling organization dedicated to police and prison guard methods of street combat.

 

[d1jinx]

I don't know why Kong Soo Do is disinclined to give his teacher(s) name(s). As long as it isn't false pride, I guess it isn't my business; well really, even if it is false pride. That is something he will have to deal with and live with. If it is for some other reason, I will leave that with him to explain when he feels like it ... or not. I will continue to evaluate what he says on its merits as I do with all posters here. So far I have no problems and actually agree with most of what he says.

Kong Soo Do, in the other thread, says he has often identified his teachers. I think I do remember him talking about his Kong Soo Do instructors, but not his Hapkido teachers. Kong Soo Do, if I am wrong, my apologies. You have posted a fair amount, and within any thread, you often post a lot of information. I may have missed it or forgotten it if I wasn't familiar with the name. My not being familiar with the name would not invalidate what your teacher taught nor invalidate any ranking he awarded you. I expect you do not know my teacher's name unless you noted it when I posted about his passing. One last thing. In the other thread you say you think some who comment on your qualifications are trolls. I hope you don;t include me in that. I assure you I am not,. And I hope I have not come across that way to you or anyone else.

With all that said, for me, the matter of Kong Soo Do's qualifications are a closed matter absent some strong proof he is not what he claims to be.

Just my two cents.

you know the ironic thing, the OP (no names) pokes fun at GM Won for promoting such a seminar, yet per his words in the past, his taekwondo and hapkido "teacher", mike dunn, is allegedly a student of that teacher, GM Won, and supposedly got his hapkido rank from GM Won, through a program such as that.

wouldnt that make one a hypocrit?

funny thing is, its all there if you filter through the endless threads. But, alas, I dont care.


Some people throw smoke bombs, run, then return when the smoke has cleared. Seems we are in the smoke right now.