Native American Fighting Arts

[Cruentus]

Bobbo,

1. What's a "skin?"

2. Where did you get your information from? Have you trained in any of this material? Tell us about it...

3. Do you have any sources to back up your claim about the horses? The research I have seen had declared that European settlers brought horses, but that could be mistaken for all I know. Would have to see the evidence to determine that, though...

Thanks!

 

[elder999]

Bobbo,

1. What's a "skin?"


3. Do you have any sources to back up your claim about the horses? The research I have seen had declared that European settlers brought horses, but that could be mistaken for all I know. Would have to see the evidence to determine that, though...

Thanks!

1.-It's kind of like rappers using the "n" word-short for "redskin," but I think you knew that.:idunno:

3.Well, it's now subject to debate-though not usually a very lengthy one.

The paleontological data indicates that approximately 11,000 years ago a variety of animals went extinct across North America. These were mostly mammals larger than approximately 44 kg (about 100 pounds). Some of the animals that went extinct are well known (like saber-toothed cats, mammoths, and mastodons). Others were less well known animals (like the short-faced skunk and the giant beaver). Some animals went extinct in North America but survived elsewhere, for example, horses and tapirs

The relatively new (27-year-old) field of molecular biology, using mitochondrial-DNA analysis, has recently found that the modern or caballine horse, E. caballus, is genetically equivalent to E. lambei, a horse, according to fossil records, that represented the most recent Equus species in North America prior to extinction. Not only is E. caballus genetically equivalent to E. lambei, but no evidence exists for the origin of E. caballus anywhere except North America.

According to the work of Uppsala University researcher Ann Forstén, of the Department of Evolutionary Biology, the date of origin, based on mutation rates for mitochondrial-DNA, for E. caballus, is set at approximately 1.7 million years ago in North America. Now the debate becomes one of whether the older paleontological fossil data or the modern molecular biology data more accurately provide a picture of horse evolution. So, it's possible that the horse was here all along, but more likely that e. caballus is the desendent of e. lambei that emigrated across the Bering land bridge sometime prior to 11,000 years ago...

Additionally, the oral history of most plains Indians, especially those known for horsemanship,relate that they did not know what horses were when they first saw them. It's additionally supported linguistically, in that many of the native words for "horse," call it some sort of dog.Before Europeans introduced the horse to North America, the dog was used as a method of transportation, pulling sleds, travois, and carrying heavy loads.

In any case, "paints," mustangs (from the Spanish mustengp, for "ownerless beast"-essentially, any wild horse), and the curly horse can trace their genetic material directly back to the multicolored horses and Andalusians that the Spanish brought to North America-I know, because I own a couple.....

 

[Cruentus]

Cool...I usually call myself "white devil" among friends :lol:

I knew about the info you posted (nice btw), but to me that evidence points more towards the notion that horses were brought here as far as native american heritage is concerned. I was more or less wondering if Mr. Bobbo had different data to counter the idea....

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I forget to mention a common Skin principle is to strike you where you aren't looking/defending. So against multiple attackers Skins defend against all directions.

Sir, if you are refferring to Native Americans as "Skins", please refrain from doing so in the future.

 

[Cruentus]

Sir, if you are refferring to Native Americans as "Skins", please refrain from doing so in the future.

Yea...seriously....

 

[bobbo]

Mr. Randall, since you asked I will refrain from using the word skin. I did not realize I was making people uncomfortable. I did not use or intend it as a racist remark.

About the horses, I got the information coming from a person who helped start the American Paint Association. Also, from horse rancher and spanish cowboy stories and prejudices. Also, from reports of anthropology studies that have discovered types of saddles made by plains tribes dated before any European met the plains' peoples.

As far as me knowing about Native fighting techniques and principles. Native fighting is one of the three fighting arts I practise fervently. Arnes was my first, then I learned Native, and about the same time I learned western millitary. Native fighting isn't as complex as other fighting arts, but it definately isn't learned over nite.

 

[bobbo]

By the way, if you are wondering, other than Ta'alog ancestry, I am Native. I am of the Wind Clan of the Muscogee Nation.

 

[Robert Lee]

You will find several people are still maintaining Indian ponies. Even Indian cattle. Yes Different nations maintained Horses/ ponies They kept. And are kept and bred today. The cherokee Had the cherokee pony about 14 hands tall choctaw had the choctaw pony Cherokee had the piney woods cattle The get about 800 pounds whewn grown were easy to control and round up after they grazed the piney woods of the east Carolina Gorigia. Now days the piney wood cattle are kept as a link to the past novelty, and history. These ponies and cattle were the early settlers introduction to the native culture. War clubs arrows, darts/ blow guns. tomahawks Though they changed much from exposer of the settlers to steel. Were used by the different nations. The old word bury the hatchet It came from when the different nations were at war the pole outside of the round house where the hatchet were set into at the time of the waring then pulled and buryed to show the end to the war. This was told to me as a cherokee as part of the history. And I have seen the cherokee ponies and the piney wood cattle indian people fought as they had to hunted for food Many have 7 clans. And the woman was respected and the man married outside his clan Then moved to the womans clan. And the children they had became part of that clan. This controled what was believed the members of your clan was your close relitives Martial art is not indian. Keeping the language alive passing down the culture. Knowing who you are That is important when the language dies. when the culture dies, when the people start to see who they were has died. Thats better research and understanding then learning how the different nations had to fight or learn how to fight. First they had to learn to survive then learn to live in a world that tryed to destory them And they came back strong and will allways be If they can hang onto at least there language.

 

[Cruentus]

Robert lee and Bobbo,

All this stuff, regarding the horse claim as other claims, are an interesting read, but anecdotal and therefore unverified unless you can point me to a strong reference that says otherwise.

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Here is an article that summerizes most of what I have read regarding the horse in America:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0111.html

 

[elder999]

About the horses, I got the information coming from a person who helped start the American Paint Association. Also, from horse rancher and spanish cowboy stories and prejudices. Also, from reports of anthropology studies that have discovered types of saddles made by plains tribes dated before any European met the plains' peoples.
.

While it's true that plains tribes did have saddles, they were used rather rarely, as they were uncomfortable and dangerous things made of wood and leather-they were dangerous because of the fastening methods, both to cinch the saddle on the horse, and in the saddles construction-it's fairly unlikely, however, that saddles of such construction would have lasted from a pre-Conquistador period, had there ever been a need for them, and the few genuine articles date from the 1800's and well after-some even have metal fasteners (nails) in their construction.

From the American Paint Horse Association Webpage

In 1519 the Spanish explorer Hernando Cortes sailed to the New World to find his fame and fortune. Along with his entourage of conquistadors, he brought horses to help his men search the vast land for riches. According to the Spanish historian Diaz del Castillo, who traveled with the expedition, one of the horses was described as a "pinto" with "white stockings on his forefeet." The other was described as a "dark roan horse" with "white patches." These were the first known recorded descriptions of early Paint Horses in the New World.

By the early 1800s, the western plains were generously populated by free-ranging herds of horses, and those herds included the peculiar spotted horse. Because of their color and performance, flashy, spotted horses soon became a favorite mount of the American Indian. The Comanche Indians, considered by many authorities to be the finest horsemen on the Plains, favored loud-colored horses and had many among their immense herds. Evidence of this favoritism is exhibited by drawings of spotted horses found on the painted buffalo robes that served as records for the Comanches. Throughout the 1800s and late into the 1900s, these spotted horses were called by a variety of names: pinto, paint, skewbald, piebald. In the late 1950s, a group dedicated to preserving the spotted horse was organized—the Pinto Horse Association. In 1962, another group of spotted horse enthusiasts organized an Association, but this group was dedicated to preserving both color and stock-type conformation—the American Paint Stock Horse Association (APSHA).

 

[Robert Lee]

Here is an article that summerizes most of what I have read regarding the horse in America:

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0300/stories/0301_0111.html

I never said the horses or ponies were already here. I went to the site you posted and can agree to a point But also in the east the English brought horses also. But much more is to be said on what is the end to a way of life. and the begining to haveing to change and try to presurve some history and keep a language alive

 

[Cruentus]

I never said the horses or ponies were already here. I went to the site you posted and can agree to a point But also in the east the English brought horses also. But much more is to be said on what is the end to a way of life. and the begining to haveing to change and try to presurve some history and keep a language alive

My apologies. Based on the context of what Bobbo had said before your post about horses already being here prior to European exploration, I interpreted your post to mean that you were in agreement. My bad.

It is true, however, that Natives had developed there own way of keeping and using horses in hunting, battle, travel, and everyday life. Some tribes were known to be very skilled horsemen, among other things. I have heard that some people have preserved that tradition, as you have said.

Paul