Native American Fighting Arts

[Shogun]

I study under Grandmaster Adrian Roman, This stuff is Legit! I am Koyukan Native (you may say "Eskimo") and Wyandotte. The Native American fighting arts are a system, usually not written, that is taught from father to son. My grandfather taught me his knife and machete tactics. Native fighting arts are much like Filipino arts in apearance. However, the Philosophy is like Bujutsu. maintain a strong base, intercept, control, disarm, finish out.

 

[Bald Bob]

Hey thanks to SHOGUN! Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman as opposed to speculating about what he teaches and criticizing that. (Wow! I just realized how many logical guidelines are violated by criticizing what you think something might be. Some of our forum visitors are fairly thought-challenged....)

For those of you who care, I have studied Kenpo and the Red Warrior system is decidedly different from Kenpo. We will have an article about the system later this year in Black Belt. In between now and then you could buy the videos, attend one-on-one classes...or, join the other kids who don't need to have logic to reach a conclusion.

 

[Cruentus]

Hey thanks to SHOGUN! Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman as opposed to speculating about what he teaches and criticizing that. (Wow! I just realized how many logical guidelines are violated by criticizing what you think something might be. Some of our forum visitors are fairly thought-challenged....)

For those of you who care, I have studied Kenpo and the Red Warrior system is decidedly different from Kenpo. We will have an article about the system later this year in Black Belt. In between now and then you could buy the videos, attend one-on-one classes...or, join the other kids who don't need to have logic to reach a conclusion.

That's great, Bob, thanks for the info. I am Skeptical about anyone in martial arts out there until I see them on the floor, but if Chief Roman was doing a seminar in my area, or if I was out by him, I would definitaly check him out and make my judgements then. I don't think that it is fair to expect anyone to shell out $$ for his videos before knowing if he is credable or not, but perhaps a magazine article would be a good read! :ultracool

 

[Shogun]

Hey thanks to SHOGUN! Like you I actually study under Grandmaster Roman

A fellow Warrior. Thats good. I have read a thread (I think it is in Kenpo-general) that stated that Grandmaster Roman isn't legit, but if they read his site or talked to him, they would realize he is a capable man. He is trying to stray away from "cookie cutter" black belt schools with his Techniques.

 

[Cruentus]

but if they read his site or talked to him, they would realize he is a capable man.

Ummm....with all do respect...don't you mean train with him? If you can't experience their movement, then how do you really know if its legit?

:asian:

 

[Shogun]

yes and no. I did mean train w/ him for the capable part. but I meant what he was trying to accomplish. sorry for he confusion.

 

[arnisador]

http://inikte.com

 

[Goldendragon7]

Anyone have any experience with Native American Fighting Arts? I am looking for something pure. Thanks Jeremy Bays

OK... I don't believe there is such a thing as a "pure" "Native American" Martial Art.


:asian:

 

[Bald Bob]

OK... I don't believe there is such a thing as a "pure" "Native American" Martial Art.


:asian:

There is no "pure" martial art of any kind because good practitioners of any art borrow freely from everyone they encounter. I study Red Warrior under Grandmaster Adrian Roman. This is a mixture of the techniques he learned from his father, uncles etc. (he is full blood Choctaw) and a re-creation of what martial art techniques would have been given the weapons and circumstances of the Aboriginal American. For example, much of our study is around knife defense because NAs carried knives at all times as utility tools and would have used them in a fight! If you lost your knife you still had to fight. The near impossible task of disarming a knife fighter makes it a neglected art in most systems. In Red Warrior the need to use finesse and protect yourself while closing the gap permeates all other techniques. I aluded to the system in an article I wrote about DM Roman for Black Belt in 2003 and a much longer article will be coming out in BB close to the end of the year. I would be glad to correspond with anyone interested in H2H, knife, bow and arrow, blowgun, stick etc. all arts of Red Warrior.

 

[Cruentus]

http://inikte.com

Looking through this website expresses exactly what I mean when I said that I didn't want a hybrid version of arts I already study.

Inikte is clearly a hybrid compelation of many different arts put together by a native american; NOT a historically native american art. It may be a great system, however, historically it's not what I'd be looking to go see.

I am skeptical about Cheif Roman and Mr. Redfeather because they both have other martial arts backgounds, so I wonder how much of their art is authentic. I personally have no desire to learn Kenpo or FMA or some hybrid with a "native american flavor." This doesn't mean that they aren't skilled, or that their arts aren't good, it just means that it wouldn't be for me to want to pay $$ for a seminar to try out.

Now, I understand that no art is in a vaccum, and that arts pirate from each other all the time. However, there is a big difference between a native american art with some FMA oe kenpo techniques, and FMA or kenpo with a native american flavor.

Followers and students of these teachers most likely aren't going to give an unbiased point of view either. This would include students who write articles about them.

So, the bottom line for me would be to go visit them and see them for myself when/if it is convienient; that is the only way to know for sure.

:asian:

 

[jrackley]

There is a big ad in the current issue of Black Belt from a guy who teaches Apache fighting.

I don't know the whole thing looks a little suspect to me. Chief Roman looks kinf of kookie.

I think he teaches "Tonto-jitsu"!!

Stanley Neptune

Hello Mr Neptune,
Chief Adrian Roman teaches, Kenpo, Red Warrior and womans self defense.He is an outstanding teacher.
Thanks

jrackley

 

[jrackley]

"See www.apacheknife.com

All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!

Stanley Neptune"


Its a shame Stanely that you give an opinion about a man and his material without ever training in it. I have had the great luck of training under Mr. Redfeather and I assure you that his material is second to none. In fact I have to guess that Mr. Redfeather is possibly the most impressive hand to hand combatant that I have ever met or worked out with.

I was certified under Mr. Redfeather to teach his basic knife course back in November of 03. I assure you that his training methods are effective and purely combative. I currently train filipino martial arts and I can attest that his knife work is not "renamed" kali or escrima. Mr. Redfeather is a full blooded apache who learned the art from his grandfather. Additionally Mr. redfeather teaches his blade work from experiance, not theory. This art has been tested in real combat. I suggest you e-mail him and ask him yourself.

Additionally, in the short time I trained with Mr. Redfeather, he gave me glimpses of his chinese art, which was equally impressive.

I agree that everything must be taken with a grain of salt. I too worried about walking into a class and learning Karate techniques with "apache" names, But I assure you Mr. Redfeather is the real deal. I am a certified knife survival instructor under Jim wagner, I also train in a military knife program under GM gus Michalik, and in W.Hock Hochiem's Knife-counter knife combatives. HOWEVER, If my life were ever on the line in a REAL knife encounter I have no doubt that the Apache system would be the one I would turn to.

Please as smart people, you should question everything, but in turn take the time to evaluate something properly before you make judgements.

Thank you Sir, very well said.

 

[jrackley]

Anyone have any experience with Native American Fighting Arts? I know there is a Kenpo gu called Chief Roman that uses Kenpo and calls it Native American Arts, but I am looking for something more pure.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Have you ever seen Chief Romans red warrior program.

 

[Bald Bob]

Looking through this website expresses exactly what I mean when I said that I didn't want a hybrid version of arts I already study.

Inikte is clearly a hybrid compelation of many different arts put together by a native american; NOT a historically native american art. It may be a great system, however, historically it's not what I'd be looking to go see.

I am skeptical about Cheif Roman and Mr. Redfeather because they both have other martial arts backgounds, so I wonder how much of their art is authentic. I personally have no desire to learn Kenpo or FMA or some hybrid with a "native american flavor." This doesn't mean that they aren't skilled, or that their arts aren't good, it just means that it wouldn't be for me to want to pay $$ for a seminar to try out.

Now, I understand that no art is in a vaccum, and that arts pirate from each other all the time. However, there is a big difference between a native american art with some FMA oe kenpo techniques, and FMA or kenpo with a native american flavor.

Followers and students of these teachers most likely aren't going to give an unbiased point of view either. This would include students who write articles about them.

So, the bottom line for me would be to go visit them and see them for myself when/if it is convienient; that is the only way to know for sure.

:asian:

Well, you present a logical roadblock in all directions. You assert that students and those who who know enough about their teachers to write articles aren't going to give an unbiased point of view. Perhaps so, but those who do not have that insight can't give any informed point of view at all.

Grandmaster Roman's Red Warrior system is very distinct from Kenpo. I have a black belt in each system from him and while I like and respect Kenpo it is not Red Warrior and varies in many significant ways. Your best comment? See for yourself.

 

[Bald Bob]

"See www.apacheknife.com

All I can say is Koo Koo, Koo Koo, Koo Koo!

Stanley Neptune"


Its a shame Stanely that you give an opinion about a man and his material without ever training in it. I have had the great luck of training under Mr. Redfeather and I assure you that his material is second to none. In fact I have to guess that Mr. Redfeather is possibly the most impressive hand to hand combatant that I have ever met or worked out with.

I was certified under Mr. Redfeather to teach his basic knife course back in November of 03. I assure you that his training methods are effective and purely combative. I currently train filipino martial arts and I can attest that his knife work is not "renamed" kali or escrima. Mr. Redfeather is a full blooded apache who learned the art from his grandfather. Additionally Mr. redfeather teaches his blade work from experiance, not theory. This art has been tested in real combat. I suggest you e-mail him and ask him yourself.

Additionally, in the short time I trained with Mr. Redfeather, he gave me glimpses of his chinese art, which was equally impressive.

I agree that everything must be taken with a grain of salt. I too worried about walking into a class and learning Karate techniques with "apache" names, But I assure you Mr. Redfeather is the real deal. I am a certified knife survival instructor under Jim wagner, I also train in a military knife program under GM gus Michalik, and in W.Hock Hochiem's Knife-counter knife combatives. HOWEVER, If my life were ever on the line in a REAL knife encounter I have no doubt that the Apache system would be the one I would turn to.

Please as smart people, you should question everything, but in turn take the time to evaluate something properly before you make judgements.

I am sure that Mr. Redfeather is a fine man. I have seen one of his videos and found it much like other knife fighting videos with the same conventions (knife side up fighting, etc.) I suggest you look into the knife fighting arts of Grandmaster Adrian Roman. I think you will find a different approach and one you might like even better. When we test standard knife techniques against GM Roman's we find the latter superior. I join with you in saying that people who have never seen a teacher's work should not condemn it based on their speculation.

 

[Cruentus]

Well, you present a logical roadblock in all directions. You assert that students and those who who know enough about their teachers to write articles aren't going to give an unbiased point of view. Perhaps so, but those who do not have that insight can't give any informed point of view at all.

Grandmaster Roman's Red Warrior system is very distinct from Kenpo. I have a black belt in each system from him and while I like and respect Kenpo it is not Red Warrior and varies in many significant ways. Your best comment? See for yourself.

It's not really a logical roadblock for me. I don't have to become a full-blown student to have an informed opinion on GM Roman. With almost 20 years in the martial arts and enough exposure in many styles of FMA, and enough exposure to Kenpo, I will be able to tell what is and what isn't these other arts if I see him, for the most part.

 

[loki09789]

I have been lurking here and have noticed this conversation spin from "Native American" arts to authenticity bashing.

Earlier on someone made the point that there really isn't/wasn't a codified/systemized native american system. You did what worked. If steel was better than stone, it was used. If the rifle was superior to the bow and arrow, it was used.... I would imagine that the 'technical' approach of fighting for Native americans (whether Continental USA or Island chains...) fit into that over all view as well. That said:

I would think that Native Fighting arts goals and purposes would be more productive to discuss. What were Native fighting arts used for? Obviously fighting, but for what types (raids, defense, hunting, internal dueling for power) of purposes did the fighting arts serve.

Remember too that the idea of Counting Coup on an enemy was a sign of bravery and a goal of Native fighting style (at least for Lakota) and that goal would change some of the ways that they fought individually.

Speaking of individually, coordinated mass battle formations didn't really come into play for Native Americans until they were locking horns with the Blue Suits of the US Army. Prior to that, combat was more mobs of individual warriors seeking single combat until there was no one else willing to fight.

How did that shift change Native Fighting arts.

This purpose/practicallity driven fighting ideology seems similar to FMA's to me and makes the 'authenticity' argument kind of pointless.

To me it seems that the spirituallity and mindset of the Native warrior wasn't locked into 'Technique' but purposes of fighting with bravery, skill and honor to make sure that he/they represented their clan/tribe well in combat and accomplished the task at hand.

 

[Bald Bob]

It's not really a logical roadblock for me. I don't have to become a full-blown student to have an informed opinion on GM Roman. With almost 20 years in the martial arts and enough exposure in many styles of FMA, and enough exposure to Kenpo, I will be able to tell what is and what isn't these other arts if I see him, for the most part.

The less you know the less you can meaningfully comment but I won't cavil with your having some opinion based on your vast general knowledge of MA. That having been said, I would assume you have at least seen several Red Warrior techniques in order to comment at all. If you have seen Red Warrior in practice and consider it Kenpo-like I would like to see a list of the similarities because I can certainly list the differences.

 

[Cruentus]

This purpose/practicallity driven fighting ideology seems similar to FMA's to me and makes the 'authenticity' argument kind of pointless.

I disagree with this point in that I think that credability is an issue.

The Celts had a similar fighting approach as the Native Americans; yet if I learned FMA, did some research on Celtic traditions, fighting methods, and spirituality, then said my fighting method was a Celtic Warrior tradition that I learned from my Grandfather, then I would have an authenticity/credability problem. FMA methods, or (insert art here) with a Celtic Flavor is not a "Celtic Martial Art." Same is true for Native American based arts. (Insert other Arts here) methods with a Native American flair is not a Native American Art, no matter which way you cut it. Also, just because I am "Celtic" by race, that doesn't mean that I learned a family or tribes style of fighting. Same is true for a Native American; just because you might be one by race, doesn't mean you learned traditional healing or fighting methods.

Authenticity is an issue. I can do my own historical research and apply what I know from FMA on my own; I don't need someone else to do it for me, nor do I need to pay big bucks to go see them for what I could do on my own. However, if someone actively learned and practiced the Native American fighting methods of their family and tribe, then I would like to explore those. I'll be able to tell the difference if I see them.

Now, I think it is pointless to go on a credability witch hunt, as some have done here. The only way I'll know if any of these instructors are the real deal is if I see them, or if a credable source that I trust sees them.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

The less you know the less you can meaningfully comment but I won't cavil with your having some opinion based on your vast general knowledge of MA. That having been said, I would assume you have at least seen several Red Warrior techniques in order to comment at all. If you have seen Red Warrior in practice and consider it Kenpo-like I would like to see a list of the similarities because I can certainly list the differences.

I haven't seen any Red Warrior techniques. I said that I am naturally skeptical in situations like these. When people have other backgrounds, but claim to be the head of a martial art from their own culture, the possability is there that this system of theirs is really just a hybrid of other arts they have studied. I would need to see them in action to verify one way or the other.

So...what exactly is your problem with what I am saying?