Native American Fighting Arts?

[Sapper6]

What causes you to believe the KC guys haven't been skewered? I have an abiding respect for Mr. Sullivan, based on pre-KC data. I have nothing but disdain for the KC belts-through-mail thing. I, personally, believe that 90% of learning the martial arts is a kinesthetic feedback experience, and if you do not have a warm body throwing blows at you while you learn to block, then you're learning to dance, not fight. The video instruction and video testing thing cannot possibly provide the tactile information necessary to develop good kenpo skills. But, hey: If I'm ever looking for an easy promotion, I now know of some places to go.

Regards,

Dr. Dave

i think we are on the same page here...i know that Mr. Sullivan & Vic are legitmate martial artists, with very solid backgrounds...i also respect what they have done with their art not straying to far off the path. what i question is, knowing who these guys are, their history, etc, why damage your credibility by jumping on the belts-by-mail bandwagon. as prominent as these guys are, wouldnt you think they know all they are producing are drones capable of going through the motions, not really producing quality martial artists...

 

[marshallbd]

i think we are on the same page here...i know that Mr. Sullivan & Vic are legitmate martial artists, with very solid backgrounds...i also respect what they have done with their art not straying to far off the path. what i question is, knowing who these guys are, their history, etc, why damage your credibility by jumping on the belts-by-mail bandwagon. as prominent as these guys are, wouldnt you think they know all they are producing are drones capable of going through the motions, not really producing quality martial artists...

From what I understand, and I could be very wrong, is that they didn't jump on this band wagon, they built the wagon from scratch! :asian:

 

[Sapper6]

From what I understand, and I could be very wrong, is that they didn't jump on this band wagon, they built the wagon from scratch! :asian:

...that may be the case, but again, why...?

 

[marshallbd]

...that may be the case, but again, why...?

I bet if you called Mr Leroux he would tell you....His number is on the website.... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

I bet if you called Mr Leroux he would tell you....His number is on the website.... :asian:

Just to clarify, I do not study any video tested or non tested course.....just know he answers the phone because I did inquire about it sometime back and spoke with him....He believes the system works....I am still a sceptic. :asian:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just to clarify, I do not study any video tested or non tested course.....just know he answers the phone because I did inquire about it sometime back and spoke with him....He believes the system works....I am still a sceptic. :asian:

With all due respects to the men themselves, I will always be a skeptic. I've no doubt that Mr. Sullivan would ring my bell in a heartbeat. I sincerely doubt that a distance learning black belt would even be able to put up a decent fight.

D.

 

[Sapper6]

With all due respects to the men themselves, I will always be a skeptic. I've no doubt that Mr. Sullivan would ring my bell in a heartbeat. I sincerely doubt that a distance learning black belt would even be able to put up a decent fight.

D.

my point exactly! i've never doubted the MA abilities of the people who operate that way, just the mindset for doing it and i'll always doubt the MA abilities of the people who study that way... :asian:

 

[edhead2000]

What about systems of Hawaiian/Polynesian fighting systems of the indiginous folks (Samoans and such). Saw WHALE RIDER about New Zealand based Polynesians and there was a component about martial arts/warrior traditions in the Chieftain training part of the movie,

I spent a month in Western Samoa and 3 months in NZ studying anthropology and various sciences. I'm currently doing some research into their traditional fighting systems. I didn't get to learn a whole lot while I was over there because most of that stuff is reserved for men (as you clearly saw in Whale Rider -- excellent movie, btw). I can tell you that what I saw (cultural dances/ceremonies) was amazing.

 

[loki09789]

I spent a month in Western Samoa and 3 months in NZ studying anthropology and various sciences. I'm currently doing some research into their traditional fighting systems. I didn't get to learn a whole lot while I was over there because most of that stuff is reserved for men (as you clearly saw in Whale Rider -- excellent movie, btw). I can tell you that what I saw (cultural dances/ceremonies) was amazing.

On the History Channel special on Hawaii, there was a section on warrior training (spefic to the royal class/males). It was very interesting how the tie between the cultural/spiritual values and fighting was very tight. A long time ago there was a Martial arts mag article about the various styles (bone crushing, cutting, slashing....)and how they were organized into units during warfare...

I wonder how influencial that Polynesian/Hawaiian cultural spirit was on the CHA-3 Kenpo, Kajukenbo... as they came through and were adopted by the local "Native" Americans along with the Euro-Americans.

At the very least, Guys like Tom Bolden of American Modern Arnis, use to talk about how it raised the intensity bar to work with Samoans (HUGE!) who were still of the tribal/male warrior mentallity.

 

[Cruentus]

We've been very fortunate that tribal arts in Southeast asia, and islander arts of indonesia, Philipines, and even Hawaii have survived.

I'd be greatly interested in learning Native North American fighting methods, but it seems that most of what I have seen so far that has been advertized looks like a hybrid of something non-native american (like FMA and kenpo) that has just been given a Native "flair," and has been packaged and sold as a native american art. The last thing I'd want to do is train in a watered down version of something that I already study (like FMA) with pseudo-tribal philosephies attached to it. If I learn or explore anything, I want it to be the real deal.

What 7*mantis said here makes a lot of sense to me:

Most of what I got from speaking with different chiefs was that there wasn't one set system, it was basically learn from experience. They started you learning how to use such things as hatchets and you learned to hunt small animals, then bigger ones, then fighting with them. If you didn't learn quick and win, you most likely wouldn't last long and wouldn't be made a warrior.

This coincides with some of the info I've heard as well.

I'd be happy to learn or exchange with someone who, maybe, doesn't have a name for his art but "this is what my grandfather taught me." That would be fine with me.

I can't say for sure that everyone is doing this, but I find it completely disrespectful to re-package an art under a false culteral vail. I'll use a personal example. My Grandfather was an Irish guy who was Golden Gloves Champ in the late 1930's, and he learned how to fight bareknuckle from an old timer who knew the old styles of bareknuckle boxing. I wish I probed his brain more before he passed on, but in reality I have only gotten an hours worth of good advise on fighting from him; advise that caused me to do some of my own research on the old style bareknuckle fighting. However, if I opened up my own program and called it "Irish bare-knuckle and faction fighting" and re-packaged what I know of Modern Arnis and what I know from my boxing/kickboxing days, then I think I'd be doing a diservice to my family heritage as well as my martial arts teachers from whom I would have had to of ripped off and not given credit too. This is the equivelent what it seems like a lot of "Native American" fighting arts have done today.

So, I am willing to check out anyone from whom it would be convienient for me to check out; but I'll have my skeptic hat on when doing so. Remember, if it looks like Kenpo, smells like Kenpo, then it probably isn't a lost native american fighting art.

On that note, has anybody had the chance to check this guy out:
http://members.aol.com/redfeather88/apacheknife/redfeather.htm

Again, I have my skeptic hat on here, but he seems to have been around the block enough where I'd do a seminar if given the opportunity.
:asian:

 

[marshallbd]

We've been very fortunate that tribal arts in Southeast asia, and islander arts of indonesia, Philipines, and even Hawaii have survived.

I'd be greatly interested in learning Native North American fighting methods, but it seems that most of what I have seen so far that has been advertized looks like a hybrid of something non-native american (like FMA and kenpo) that has just been given a Native "flair," and has been packaged and sold as a native american art. The last thing I'd want to do is train in a watered down version of something that I already study (like FMA) with pseudo-tribal philosephies attached to it. If I learn or explore anything, I want it to be the real deal.

What 7*mantis said here makes a lot of sense to me:



This coincides with some of the info I've heard as well.

I'd be happy to learn or exchange with someone who, maybe, doesn't have a name for his art but "this is what my grandfather taught me." That would be fine with me.

I can't say for sure that everyone is doing this, but I find it completely disrespectful to re-package an art under a false culteral vail. I'll use a personal example. My Grandfather was an Irish guy who was Golden Gloves Champ in the late 1930's, and he learned how to fight bareknuckle from an old timer who knew the old styles of bareknuckle boxing. I wish I probed his brain more before he passed on, but in reality I have only gotten an hours worth of good advise on fighting from him; advise that caused me to do some of my own research on the old style bareknuckle fighting. However, if I opened up my own program and called it "Irish bare-knuckle and faction fighting" and re-packaged what I know of Modern Arnis and what I know from my boxing/kickboxing days, then I think I'd be doing a diservice to my family heritage as well as my martial arts teachers from whom I would have had to of ripped off and not given credit too. This is the equivelent what it seems like a lot of "Native American" fighting arts have done today.

So, I am willing to check out anyone from whom it would be convienient for me to check out; but I'll have my skeptic hat on when doing so. Remember, if it looks like Kenpo, smells like Kenpo, then it probably isn't a lost native american fighting art.

On that note, has anybody had the chance to check this guy out:
http://members.aol.com/redfeather88/apacheknife/redfeather.htm

Again, I have my skeptic hat on here, but he seems to have been around the block enough where I'd do a seminar if given the opportunity.
:asian:

His DVD looks interesting...