naihanchi/tekki

[chinto]

First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead

And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.

edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)

well I will Ask and see what I can find out.. I may have missunderstood what I was told.. but Then again I may not have... I will have to find out.

 

[chinto01]

First and foremost of all: Kyan was most certainly not a judan, not even a shodan! He simply didn't have any rank! The ranks that people hold/held came after second world war, and by that time Kyan was already dead

And second, like I said previously, Kyan did not teach Naifanchi/Naihanci/how ever you want to spell it. Joen Nakazato, the founder Shorinji ryu Kyudokan and a student Kyan has confirmed this. If Kyan had taught those kata, why would Seibukan take them from elsewhere? Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach those, but his son Zenpo does and he learned them Chozo Nakama.

edit: Also, in Shorinji ryu Kyudokan, there is only one Naifanchi kata. Not entirely sure which, but I'm guessing Naifanchi shodan (I think I'll confirm that from guys who have visited Nakazato)

Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[TimoS]

Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.

Interesting point, but then again considering that e.g. Zenryo Shimabukuro was with Kyan from 1930 until his death in 1945, so I would imagine that during those 15 years he would've seen and taught the kata. Also, Joen Nakazato and Tatsuo Shimabukuro were both junior to him. Tatsuo Shimabukuro started with Kyan in 1932 and Joen Nakazato in 1933 (I'm pulling these years from a finnish Seibukan site, but the original article seems to have been written by Dan Smith, who, I believe, is one of the Seibukan pioneers in USA)

 

[chinto01]

All good points. The one thing I have heard is that there was never any formal class times at Kyan Sensei's house/dojo. Therfore the conclusion may be drawn that people may have learned things from him at different times. As we all know the history of the arts is a bit foggy due to the lack of documentation so to say that an individual did not learn a form from a teacher may be not be entirely accurate.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[TimoS]

Very true. I guess the final truth, at least something everyone can agree on, is something that'll never be reached. The world of martial arts is unfortunately filled with big egos and big egos equals too often raising your own importance and downplaying the others (this is just a general observation and not directed at anyone)

 

[chinto]

Just playing devils advocate here but is it possible that maybe Kyan Sensei taught different katas to different people at different times of his teaching? I do not want to start an argument just putting the thought out there.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

to me that is compleatly possible.. after all, even though he did not officially have as some one pointed out in one forum or other ...the ( judan rank) from a japanese body he was considerd a master in skill and rank all the same obvously.. and I do know that some of the masters of karate on okinawa tought diferent kata to direrent students at times.... ( and I am no expert in history.. but I do love the history of all cultures and lands.. a bit of a historian at heart I guess )....
)

 

[TimoS]

the ( judan rank) from a japanese body he was considerd a master in skill and rank all the same obvously..

In skill, without a doubt. In rank, well, kind of. What I mean is that back in Kyan's days none of the masters had rank and I don't think anyone back then had even a well structrized curriculum, they just taught you kata and applications. In fact, I seem to remember reading somwhere one of the first okinawans, if not the first, to be granted the judan was Eizo Shimabukuro. So in modern terms I think we can say that Kyan was at least equal to just about any legitimate 10. dan out there

 

[Victor Smith]

If I may I'd like to offer a few comments about Naifanchi, Kyan and perhaps Isshinryu, which I've been studying for about 35 years.

Most of the karate reference books (such as John Sells work Unante I and II) list Naifanchi kata as one of Kyan's kata. But towards the end of 2005, Dan Smith (of the Seiubkan and originally a student of Shimabukuro Zenryo) explained that the source of much of that information came from is own lack of understanding. When he trained in Seibukan Naifanchi was one of their kata, and he assumed it came from Kyan Sensei, and never asked, but it's source was not Kyan, who did not teach the kata.

Another Okinawan stylist, Harri Davis, a student in the Joen Nakazato lineage, confirmed this. Nakazato also taught Naifanchi but it did not come from Kyan, but from a different instructor than the Seibukan source.

In face all of the Kyan descended groups, Matsubayshi from Nagamine, Isshinryu from Shimabuku Ezio, etc. include Naifanchi and all appear to have different sources.

Likely Kyan would have known the kata, even if only having seen it innumerable tims, but it was not part of his teaching. Yet all of his students who ended up teaching seem to have found it a source of value and included at least one of the 3 kata in their schools, perhaps as an Okinawan standard?

While there are 3 Naifanchi kata, in Isshinryu's case it is only an Isshinryu variation of the first one, Naifanchi sho-dan. The main difference is the kata begins stepping to the left, as opposed to most naifanchi/tekki versions that begin stepping to the right.

Isshinryu is not alone as there are several other groups that do the same. Isshinryu's source may have been Motobu Chokoi (or it may not have been). The Japanese video of his son's performance has the kata performed in both directions, which is not illogical as the kata mid point just reverses the beginning 1/2 of the kata.

Of course Isshinryu's version has other flourishes keeping with it's founders (Shimabuku Tatsuo's) vision, but the essence of Naifanchi remains.

The problem is most of this remaisn oral history. You can or cannot prove it from books or other internet discussions. But none of them constitute proof, especially as the true Okinawan tradition was NOT to document systems and history (a modern phenomena), and the truth was whatever your instructor told you.

As for the application potential of Naifanchi, that depends on what work you want to put into it, it can be nonexistent, standard or very deep indeed. Yes the technique could be used on the ground (as any kata's technique could be). Isshinryu's founder had specific teachings to counter the mount in his students study of 'kumite'. But personally as i've found little reason to concern myself with grounding in my studies and teachings, I don't consider Naifanchi in that light.

On the whole I see the first line analysis of Naifanchi as being:
1. conters for striking
2. counters for grappling with a huge range of lower body attacks in the stepping potential of the kata.

Pehaps this is helpfu,

pleasantly,

 

[harlan]

Hi, Victor. Can I ask a question? Asked to be shown Naihanchi this week, and in our Goju I think it's not really considered part of the 'classical' Goju kata. Maybe I missed it in the thread, but is this the one kata that it was decided on (at some meeting) would be a common kata to the various styles?

Thank you.

 

[Victor Smith]

Harlan,

I wouldn't say it was decided at a meeting as a common kata, but on the systems that link back to pre 1890 (Pre Hiagonna Naha te) it seems to be one commonly found. That and the fact that Motobu made a name for himself as a fighter and he both focused on Naifanchi a great deal, wrote about it too, likely gave it more ooomph.

When Miyagi's training developed into Goju ryu, Sanchin became a core component. Naifanchi was somewhat in a similar mode, but it depended on the lineage. Funakoshi's training from Itsou (by his own writing) consisted of 3 years on Naifanchi Sho-dan, 3 years on Naifanchi Ni-dan and 3 years on Naifanchi San-dan. Of course other lineage in Shorin ryu began with Seisan (as continues in Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu).

But it does seem to have been accepted, in that all of the schools eventually derived from Kyan included it.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi again,

Just to prove a point, the latest issue of the free Meibukan Magazine has just been published. It contains an article on Seibukan by John Sells and in it he describes Naifanchi clearly as a Kyan form.

I do think it is an old article that I've seen before but it brings up dueling references on the issue.

Enjoy the real world of the martial arts - the truth remains hidden <GRIN>

 

[TimoS]

Of course other lineage in Shorin ryu began with Seisan (as continues in Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu).

I seem to remember hearing that Joen Nakazato's Shorinji ryu Kyudokan starts with Ananku

 

[chinto]

Harlan,

I wouldn't say it was decided at a meeting as a common kata, but on the systems that link back to pre 1890 (Pre Hiagonna Naha te) it seems to be one commonly found. That and the fact that Motobu made a name for himself as a fighter and he both focused on Naifanchi a great deal, wrote about it too, likely gave it more ooomph.

When Miyagi's training developed into Goju ryu, Sanchin became a core component. Naifanchi was somewhat in a similar mode, but it depended on the lineage. Funakoshi's training from Itsou (by his own writing) consisted of 3 years on Naifanchi Sho-dan, 3 years on Naifanchi Ni-dan and 3 years on Naifanchi San-dan. Of course other lineage in Shorin ryu began with Seisan (as continues in Shimabuku Tatsuo's Isshinryu).

But it does seem to have been accepted, in that all of the schools eventually derived from Kyan included it.

I could not say for the Isshin ryu style, but entill recently Shobayashi started with Seisan as the first kata. in recent years the fukyu kata were added so that a new student was not thrown into the deep end so to speek strait off.

 

[chinto01]

I could not say for the Isshin ryu style, but entill recently Shobayashi started with Seisan as the first kata. in recent years the fukyu kata were added so that a new student was not thrown into the deep end so to speek strait off.

Chinto this is not the case with every shorin ryu school that follows Shimabukuro Sensei just to clarify.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[chinto]

Chinto this is not the case with every shorin ryu school that follows Shimabukuro Sensei just to clarify.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

I could not say.. been about ohh 8 or so years I guess since students started with Seisan kata as the first kata at our dojo... Now as far as I know the progression of kata is the same in all the shobayashi shorin ryu dojo's now ... and as far as when the fukyu kata were interduced.. I dont know how uniform that was.

 

[chinto01]

I could not say.. been about ohh 8 or so years I guess since students started with Seisan kata as the first kata at our dojo... Now as far as I know the progression of kata is the same in all the shobayashi shorin ryu dojo's now ... and as far as when the fukyu kata were interduced.. I dont know how uniform that was.

I do not believe the fukyu kata were ever introduced to the organization. I also do not believe that Shimabukuro Sensei taught or knew these kata. So to paint with a broad brush that these kata were added to the shorin ryu system as taught by Shimabukuro Sensei is incorrect. These kata may have been added by individual dojos but have not been added to dojos that are in Shimabukuro Senseis organization.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

I can only speak as to what I know:

The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.

Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?

 

[chinto]

I do not believe the fukyu kata were ever introduced to the organization. I also do not believe that Shimabukuro Sensei taught or knew these kata. So to paint with a broad brush that these kata were added to the shorin ryu system as taught by Shimabukuro Sensei is incorrect. These kata may have been added by individual dojos but have not been added to dojos that are in Shimabukuro Senseis organization.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

well I could not say what is happening on the east coase, where as I remember you are located.. but at least on the west coast it seems to be something that has been done... that is all I can tell you.

 

[chinto]

I can only speak as to what I know:

The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.

Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?

well there are 3 fukyu kata ... very very basic and simple, but do give some one with no clue a short step up before they tackle Seisan kata.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I can only speak as to what I know:

The Fukyugata katas were introduced into the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu system to replace the Pinan and Naihanchi as beginners kata as Pinan and Naihanchi were considered to be too advanced to start with. This has also been transferred over to the Shogen Ryu system.

Now, Matsubayashi study Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, but I have heard that there is a 3rd one out there somewhere?

You are correct that there is a Fuykyugata San. It was created by Ueshiro Sensei after the split between he and Nagamine Sensei. The story I have heard was it was to designate between his group and Nagamine's. However few Okinawan schools practice the kata but it is there. Many more practice Fukyugata Ichi and Ni. The Fukyugata kata's were also created by request of the Japanese ministry of education in the 1940's. Fuykyugata Ichi was done by Nagamine Sensei and Fukyugata Ni was done by Miyagi Sensei from what my research says.