naihanchi/tekki

[OkinawaPeichin]

Many of the Old Sensei on Okinawa and Japan, are very strict about how their style is taught/passed on. If they do not ok something they will expell people even long time students. It happens from time to time.

I trained in Okinawa for many years and never noticed them to be that strict.

Kanazawa added several Shito ryu,and Goju ryu kata to his Shotokan curriculum, as well as going to Okinawa and studying some Uechi ryu and Taichi and this was shunned by the JKA. I believe that he left on his own accord and started the SKI.

From what I have heard from my present teacher and seen with my own eyes anything ticks the JKA off. Basic policy states you are not allowed to train in other systems or styles, even kobudo.

I wonder what Funakoshi Osensei's teachers thought of his changing all of the kata that he taught on the Japanese mainland?

From what I have read in various books they weren’t too happy.

 

[Victor Smith]

When Funakoshi went to Japan, Itosu, his primary teacher, had been dead for years. It was other Okinawan's who chose to send him and it was the Japanese that asked him to stay around.

As for the gradual process that ended up changing the shape of the karate he taught, he simply did what everyone on Okinawa did after all. After all Itosu changed things didn't he. IN turn Funakoshi Sensei as the instructor and he did what he felt was correct.

If you take the time to track the changes of the kata across generations all of the Okinawans have fiddled with the kata. He saw nothing else over his years. For the student "Never change the kata" for the instructor "There are no rules". Which explains all of the differences such as 15+ patsai kata and so forth.

There are ways the Okinawan's could have cemented the shape of their form to not have them change. Their traditions didn't follow that path, nor does anyones in reality.

I'm not an advocate for Shotokan nor am I a detractor, for it is what it is, but really that's what all of it is after all.

I once met Shimabukuro Zempo (Seibukan) in 1985 and talking with him he tried to make the point how small Isshinryu was on Okinawa telling me "there are maybe 90 shorin dojo, 60 goju dojo and 3 isshin dojo". I understood his point from various perspectives, but many years later George Donahue explained to me "that's about right there are 90 shorin dojo and each of them is working different from each other."

Last year on the Cyber Dojo it was discussed that today there are about 240 dojo on Okinawa (and inrease from that 1985 number), and Dan Smith (also of the Seibukan) explained that about 75% of the students are children (where pre 1974 there were almost none).

It just points out change is the true constant.

Which, btw, is what looks like ticks the JKA off after all.

While you can pick up a modest rock with your bare hands, you don't get much water with the same lift. <GRIN>

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

When Funakoshi went to Japan, Itosu, his primary teacher, had been dead for years. It was other Okinawan's who chose to send him and it was the Japanese that asked him to stay around.

Can you give the names and some actual accounts of Okinawan teachers asking Funakoshi to go to Japan? I have yet to see it.

Most people have claimed Funakoshi got some sort of engraved invite to teach in Japan by some lofting dignitary. I have never seen anything factual to support this. The only thing I have ever seen of him being asked to go to Japan was his friend that was working at a Japanese University got him a job as a gardener and said maybe he could teach karate to some of the students to try and spread the art. This invite came at a time when Funakoshi was going to be transferred to a remote island of Okinawa to teach school and didn&#8217;t want to go and therefore took his friend up on the invite to Tokyo.

 

[ppko]

Can you give the names and some actual accounts of Okinawan teachers asking Funakoshi to go to Japan? I have yet to see it.

Most people have claimed Funakoshi got some sort of engraved invite to teach in Japan by some lofting dignitary. I have never seen anything factual to support this. The only thing I have ever seen of him being asked to go to Japan was his friend that was working at a Japanese University got him a job as a gardener and said maybe he could teach karate to some of the students to try and spread the art. This invite came at a time when Funakoshi was going to be transferred to a remote island of Okinawa to teach school and didn’t want to go and therefore took his friend up on the invite to Tokyo.

Wow where did you find this out at never heard this, also do you know of any reliable history sources on Tode (Karate)

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Wow where did you find this out at never heard this, also do you know of any reliable history sources on Tode (Karate)

I read most of it in Funakoshi's book Karate Do My Way of Life.

 

[Victor Smith]

The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.

Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.

I can't prove much after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.

Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."

Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?

It's easy to flip out answers isn't it. At least, right or wrong, I try and document the sources I can find over 'oral argument'.

In the end does it matter? I'm not a Shotokan stylist, though I've trained with some who are superb at every level. But good exists many places.

 

[ppko]

I read most of it in Funakoshi's book Karate Do My Way of Life.

ok that explains things I have never read that, so that is what he says then. Do you know of any realiable history sources on old karate

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.

Can you tell me where you read this?

Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.

Having lived on Okinawa I am painfully aware of this since there are several monuments that document it.

I can't prove much after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.

Which is why I was asking which author wrote the statements you were making.

Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."

Yes, I have read that he was invited to do a demo in Tokyo as well. However, I have never found any proof of any Okinawan teacher(s) asking Funakoshi to go to Tokyo to spread the gospel (teach karate) in Tokyo.

Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?

No need to get snippy. I was just asking where you got your information so I could read it myself. I am not sure what you mean by I am “undocumented”. Can you explain that phrase please?

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

ok that explains things I have never read that, so that is what he says then. Do you know of any realiable history sources on old karate

I have a couple books in Japanese that I am in the process of translating.
One is by Motobu and the other is called Karate Taikan by Funakoshi, Mabuni, etc

 

[Victor Smith]

Sir,

Having quite a collection of martial literature from the past 30-40 years I'm too very suspicious of what is real, but except for what has been written what else is there?

I have tracked down an Okinawan source, try reading Nagamine Shoshin's "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters". He indicates that it was the Okinawan Prefectural Board of Education, that chose Funakohsi.

I do understand how difficult the issue must be if you are looking for something tangible, but who on Okinawa has documented things further?

Regardless of the reason Funakoshi, Mabuni, Myiagi, Motobu and more all ended up circling the Japanese martial establishment for recognition. Their early writings as well as efforts such as Nakasone's support, were to establish the value of the Okinawan arts.

As far as my inference regarding you, its simply I tend to take individuals who don't share their names openly in discussion with a grain of salt. Perhaps it's a fault, but I work hard to try and understand and share as accurately as I can.

I would note there is often a tendency in karate-ka of all nationalites, including Okinawa, to take shots at each other. By naming oneself it is easier to understand our starting point.

But then I work hard to try and live up to my art and am proud of that.

 

[OkinawaPeichin]

Sir,

Having quite a collection of martial literature from the past 30-40 years I'm too very suspicious of what is real, but except for what has been written what else is there?

I have tracked down an Okinawan source, try reading Nagamine Shoshin's "Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters". He indicates that it was the Okinawan Prefectural Board of Education, that chose Funakohsi.

I do understand how difficult the issue must be if you are looking for something tangible, but who on Okinawa has documented things further?

Regardless of the reason Funakoshi, Mabuni, Myiagi, Motobu and more all ended up circling the Japanese martial establishment for recognition. Their early writings as well as efforts such as Nakasone's support, were to establish the value of the Okinawan arts.

As far as my inference regarding you, its simply I tend to take individuals who don't share their names openly in discussion with a grain of salt. Perhaps it's a fault, but I work hard to try and understand and share as accurately as I can.

I would note there is often a tendency in karate-ka of all nationalites, including Okinawa, to take shots at each other. By naming oneself it is easier to understand our starting point.

But then I work hard to try and live up to my art and am proud of that.

I thought my name was in my profile, I guess not.
My name is Freddy Martinez, former US Marine, Okinawa.

When I spoke to Mr. Nagamine back in 1980 he confirmed what I wrote above about Funakoshi.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi, Nice to meet you.

You conversation with Nagamine Sensei is interesting, so he said one thing and wrote another. I can undrestand the 'politics' behind that, especially as he did train in Japan too, but it makes it difficult to become credible in either direction after all. Which is the right answer and how does one accept proof?

Beats me.

Except for those interested into trying to pin down the 'true' history it may not make much difference. Personally when I find contradiction, then everything is questionable. Unfortunately I did not have that conversation, so it is another open issue.

If there is any documentation I doubt it is on Okinawa, perhaps there is a surviving newspaper account of that demonstration that might have some information, but that's just speculation.

Frankly you probably has a much chance finding it as you have of finding any real documetation of specific Chinese sources for the Okinawan arts.

There are political reasons why not to find them after all.

I would observe the history of the arts in the states is often no less obscure.

 

[chinto]

The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.

Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.

I can't prove much after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.

Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."

Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?

It's easy to flip out answers isn't it. At least, right or wrong, I try and document the sources I can find over 'oral argument'.

In the end does it matter? I'm not a Shotokan stylist, though I've trained with some who are superb at every level. But good exists many places.

first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time. I personaly think that the Okinawans did not really trust that that would not come back into force till after WWII, and so they where by tradition, and for trust reasons I beleave, reluctent to document things till the after the end of WWII.
Please remember the historical record of Japan and the Japanese with every other ethnicity before the end of World War II. It is very much so not a happy thing to be a none Japanese under Japanese rule prior to the end of the Second World War!! Any ethnicity other then 'Native Ethnic Japanese' was seen as subhuman or worse in most if not every way. This is historical fact, not conjecture, or bies on my side, as things like the "rape of nanking" and meany other documented things in history show.
I would say that any sorce of information for karate that is documented in period, ( pre WWII) must be looked at for authenticity, and also for point of veiw and origan, with regards to how factual it may or may not be.

 

[chinto]

The accounts I've read was there was an invitation for the Okinawan's to present karate in Japan and that he was chosen to do so.

Look on the whole Okinawa did very little pre-WWII do document what happened. And bombing efforts of the Allies (mostly American) did its best to destroy what was on Okinawa, as well as a tremendous amount of its people.

I can't prove much after all all oral accounts are suspicious, no matter which side they present, but everything I've read for my decades is the story I've presented.

Harry Cook wrote in his book 'Shotokan karate - a precise history' "Funakoshi was invited to demonstrate karate at the All Japan Athletic Exhibitiion held in Ochanomizu, Tokyo from 30 April to 30 May 1922."

Of course this isn't the factual proof you request. But as you're an undocumented indidivdual yourself why do your words carry more weight?

It's easy to flip out answers isn't it. At least, right or wrong, I try and document the sources I can find over 'oral argument'.

In the end does it matter? I'm not a Shotokan stylist, though I've trained with some who are superb at every level. But good exists many places.

first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time. I personaly think that the Okinawans did not really trust that that would not come back into force till after WWII, and so they where by tradition, and for trust reasons I beleave, reluctent to document things till the after the end of WWII.
Please remember the historical record of Japan and the Japanese with every other ethnicity before the end of World War II. It is very much so not a happy thing to be a none Japanese under Japanese rule prior to the end of the Second World War!! Any ethnicity other then 'Native Ethnic Japanese' was seen as subhuman or worse in most if not every way. This is historical fact, not conjecture, or bies on my side, as things like the "rape of nanking" and meany other documented things in history show.
I would say that any sorce of information for karate that is documented in period, ( pre WWII) must be looked at for authenticity, and also for point of veiw and origan, with regards to how factual it may or may not be.
Aftar Funikoshi made his presentation to the Emporor in 1922 and it was excepted by the emporer, the level of scruteny is slighly lower, but before that if it is a Japanese sorce I would defenently find it suspect if not varified by some Okinawan sorce that was reputable.

 

[TimoS]

first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time

Yes, I've heard that also, but I've also heard that while it may have been illegal, the ban on karate was anything but enforced. I can't remember off-hand which quite famous karate teacher (I think it was Chibana) had to hide in the bushes while people were visiting his instructor. On the other hand, it was quite commonly known that they were practising karate, so it was a public secret

 

[TimoS]

Aftar Funikoshi made his presentation to the Emporor in 1922

Actually, Hirohito was back then still a crown prince, only later to become emperor

 

[punisher73]

On the other hand, it was quite commonly known that they were practising karate, so it was a public secret

In the book, "Shotokan's Secret" (author is escaping me at the moment) he talks about the culture and how there were two "truths" what actually was and what was the public face of it. It was very interesting to read and how it may apply to many of the things we know about karate and how to us they seem contradictory.

 

[DavidCC]

If you go to this Amazon listing, you can actually browse inside the book itself!

Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters



And Shotokan's Secret: The Hidden Truth Behind Karate's Fighting Origins was written by Bruce Clayton.

 

[Victor Smith]

Chinto,

You write, "first of all, historicaly Karate was illegal to practice for a very very long time."

Would you qualify what time period you're talking about.

Karate itself arose from private practice in the mid 1800's and by the early 1900's became more open, a part of the practice began to be taught in some schools for phys ed, or in after school group settings.

In the 1930's the Okinawan's were working on new, simpler forms for teaching in a more public setting. The first set of 10 forms (published in Nakasone's Encyclopedia of Karate in 1938) do not appear to have ever been used but those developed at the request of the Special Promotional Committee (the two Fyugata kata) were put to use.

While the ban on martial studies that was ordered in Japan after WWII logically may have included the Okinawan's byt the late 40's Karate practice had resumed and in the 50's in both Okinawa and Japan the occupying military forces began to study the arts too.

Even the 'historical' Okinawan weapons ban has been put into doubt as a mistranslation of the Okinawan king just trying to centralize the weapons of his militia.

Are you referring to the time since Karate came into being, or are you talking about some earlier time and art?

thank you,

 

[Ray B]

This whole secrecy thing is not completely true.
While it may be true for smaller family arts and Goju
to some extent, Shorin-ryu (Shuri-te and Tomari-te)
was a Royal art. Matsumura, Matsumora, Motobu, Kyan, and
Itosu were all Penchin. They could practice any time
they wanted. Chibana was known for being one of the
"Last Great Bushi". By that time, Funakoshi was promoting
his Karate in Tokyo and Itosu was teaching in the public schools.

Regarding the book Shotokan's Secrets, keep in mind that this is
one man's theory. I do not agree with a lot of what this author says.
Try to get as many perspectives as possible.

Regarding Shotokan's effectiveness, I was talking to a Judoka
the other day. He wanted me to point out the difference between
Shorin-ryu and Shotokan. I made my statements but qualified it
by saying, even if Judo was a sport, it doesn't mean that you
couldn't still drop me on my head and kill me. Shotokan became
what it became for a reason, it was to be a Budo. It doesn't
mean that a "Shoto-ka" couldn't kick my ar$e.